Transcript 0:00 Hey, everybody. Uh, it's Adam Blake back with another edition of the new PNEU Podcast. It's kind of the same old thing, but it's always new. Uh, today, and we've been off for a little bit. 0:14 A- and part of that has been I've been gearing up for some adventures and making some tentative plans for the next year, and a lot of those include bike packing adventures. 0:25 Um, and a guy that I bug a lot, my guest, uh, this edition is a bag creator and manager of Sedero Bags up in Two Harbors, Minnesota, a dog dad, a retro grouch, and a pretty much all around good dude, uh, Carl Mesdal. 0:43 Uh, how are you, Carl, or Carl? [laughs] I'm good, Adam. Thanks for having me on today. Dude, it's such a pleasure. 0:51 Uh, I say your name like that on this 'cause, uh, whenever I call [laughs] Sedero and they ask, you know, "Who is it?" I'm like, "Well, it's Adam. And can you just say, Carl?" 1:00 [laughs] And I'm starting to think a few of them have- Oh, yeah... caught on to my, uh- No, they just-... nonsense. [laughs] They just hand the phone off. 1:06 We have two Carls at work, so that's, uh, become actually very helpful. Yeah. You know- Yeah [laughs]... I just, that's the way I just like to say your name, buddy. 1:15 [laughs] Um, so I was thinking, um, about how we first actually met and kind of my history with Sedero. Um, first, just to kind of frame how we got in contact was actually really interesting. 1:31 The Seldom Seen that Advocate Cycles did when I was the manager there- Yeah... uh, the bike didn't come out when I was there, but that bike, uh, was actually, that would've been 2015 or '16, you know, '14. Yeah. 1:46 Um, it had bolt-on frame bag capacity. Uh, and the bag was made by Dan Cruikshank- Yep... uh, who is the owner of Sedero and, and Spoken Gear, and we'll talk about the kind of setting there. 2:00 Um, and he was starting this brand, Sedero. Can you let me know when you got in the picture, um, with Sedero? Yeah. I kind of fell into it a little bit by accident. 2:13 Um, I had been working for Duluth Pack, and, uh, looking for a change. And so I stopped up at Spoken Gear actually and applied to be a, a wrench in the shop. Um, and Dan just happened to be there, so we got chatting. 2:30 And so, yeah, he was just getting the pack stuff off the ground. He had done like one run of packs for the Seldom Seen at that point. 2:40 And m- we got talking about my background and, you know, making stuff and design and, and whatnot. Um, and he's like, "You know, I think I might have a different 2:52 spot for you if you're interested at all," and that was March of 2017. And so I came on full time with their first s- other sewer, Nikki, um, in April of 2017. Oof. Awesome. And- And kind of just hit the ground running. 3:08 Yeah. That's all. That's... So basically at the, you know, the onset- Yeah... as well, just from two- Pretty much... different perspectives. Yeah. Yeah. Dan had, uh, done the work to, yeah, design the Seldom Seen pack. 3:21 Um, he did a run of those. We also had some basic designs for the, our Tank Top pack. Um, and then the Drummond Seat Pack was in existence. 3:32 We made some tweaks after that point, but, um, that pack actually goes back to the '80s, uh, with Granite Gear. Dan had played around with designing that pack way back then. 3:42 So that was kind of ancient history that, that, uh, got, you know, brought back into the present, so. Yeah. 3:49 I think it's, uh, of note to, to give some, uh, validation to why Dan Cruikshank has some credibility in the bag world. Yeah. Previous to Spoken Gear, Dan, uh, tell me his exact... 4:03 Was the creator or the owner of Granite Gear- Yeah... Bags? Yeah. He was, uh, one of the co-founders. It was he and his friend, Jeff, like, in college, um, back in, uh, early '80s decided to start making backpacks. 4:19 And they just kinda, kinda went after it and, uh, didn't really have a lot of technical training, you know, but they just kind of figured stuff out as they went. And so yeah, from the '80s up until, um... 4:35 Let's see, it would've been, uh, it's, um, coming up on almost 10 years ago now, uh, Dan decided to... 4:41 You know, they grew that brand of Granite Gear of the ultralight packs and, um, won a bunch of o- awards over the past, you know, three decades. 4:50 And, um, but just kind of got to a point where I think he wanted to, to try something else. 4:55 So he, uh, he and his wife, Kirsten, sold their piece of that and started dreaming up, uh, Sedero, Spoken Gear, and Cedar Coffee. 5:04 So yeah, Dan, um, you know, he's been, he's been doing this a long time, making packs, and so it was, it was pretty easy for me to slide in. 5:13 And, you know, I had been repairing packs, um, at a lodge when I was working and guiding up there, uh, up in the north country. 5:22 So I had some experience at a, at a sewing machine, but, um, I mean, there was a lot that he just has figured out. You know, he made a lot of the mistakes 30 years ago [laughs], so yeah. Yeah. 5:33 It's a pretty invaluable resource experience, you know- For sure... when you're getting into something to have somebody who's validated their experience to be like, "You know- Oh, yeah... you could, but..." 5:46 [laughs] Yeah. Can you- For sure... uh, bef- before we really dig into Sedero and, and how, and bags, I mean, it's gonna be all bags, like concepts of bags. Yeah. 5:58 Which sounds dumb to say concepts of bags, but there are... You know, if you're not into bags, you'll be amazed at how much stuff that-Some of us consider with bags, you know? Yeah, mm-hmm. And I, I think it adds value. 6:12 Can you talk a bit about what the Spoken Gear, uh, Cedar, uh, Sedero compound, um... 6:19 You know, just to give people a, a frame, because Jessica and I made our first trip up last year at kind of the beginning-ish of the craziness. We, you know, it was what it was. Yeah. 6:32 Uh, couldn't go in at the time, but you have picnic tables lined up outside. Can you just give people a, a mental visual of the facility that then is gonna produce these bags and, you know, delicious food. 6:46 We ate, ate there at least once, if not twice, you know? Yeah. Um, yeah, so we're, we're tucked sh- kinda just off the beaten path, not too far. Uh, literally down in a cedar grove, so, 7:00 uh, in just outside of Two Harbors, Minnesota, so that's, you know, just 25 minutes up the North Shore from Duluth. 7:07 And so, uh, Dan was looking for a place to put, you know, this compound, and he f- the city was selling this property, and it was all this s- you know, it was kind of a cedar grove, uh, with some wetland and whatnot. 7:21 So there was this small, buildable chunk that wasn't gonna disturb the wetland too much. 7:26 And, um, so they purchased that, and, uh, a lot of the, of the cedar in the building, the ceiling, and trim and whatnot, um, was actually milled from the cedar trees that were taken down off that property, uh, which is pretty neat. 7:42 I think that's awesome. And yeah, so it's, it's pretty neat. You, you drive in and, um... Yeah, with the pandemic we, uh, 7:49 one of our sewers, um, partners at the time, was making picnic tables and, like, we need outdoor seating. So the, our cedar grove became this, like, outdoor dining space. Um, so yeah, it's really, it's unique. 8:03 It's close. It's right in town, but you don't really feel that so much. Yeah. And- It's, what, like, five minutes out of town, but it- Yeah... definitely feels disconnected from town. Yep. When you're in... 8:14 You drive down a, I don't know, what would you say, 100-foot-long driveway before you're- Yeah... in the main parking lot. Yep. 8:19 And that offset, and then the surrounding of the trees, really makes you feel like you're in a, you're way out there. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, so we're, we're all in the same building. 8:32 It's not three separate buildings. It's all under the same roof. 8:35 Uh, so we have the coffee shop, um, and cafe, so they do food as well, and Spoken Gear, which is, um, you know, s- kind of specializes in the adventure, cycling, touring kinda end of things, and mountain biking of course, 'cause that's what we have around here as well. 8:53 But, um, you know, with our- And full service. Yeah. And, and full service, yep. Yep. And, uh, so, and, you know, obviously because of our connection between Sedero- Connection... and Spoken Gear- Right... 9:06 it's just very natural to be focused on, on the bike packing end of things. So, um, yeah, we're, we're kinda busting out of our space a little bit. It's, you know, we're, uh, we're busy back there. We got about 9:19 700 square feet, and sometimes we've got eight people back there, you know, including all the machines and, um- I was gonna say, there's a pretty sizable machine in there. Uh- Yeah... do you wanna- Yep... do you wanna... 9:30 Wait, let's not detail, let's not talk about that particular- Sure... machine yet. Sure. Because I think that's gotta be pretty exclusive to you guys- Yeah... on the scale that you are, right? Yeah. 9:41 Ooh, teaser, everyone stay tuned. 9:44 [laughs] So the first thing I actually want to talk about, and this is kinda connected, is when I got introduced to Sedero and, and we, uh, a mutual friend, Josh Kowalski, was working for Sedero as ki- or as a rep kind of and- Yeah. 10:01 Yep... Spoken Gear manager. Mm-hmm. Uh, and he was on a bike packing trip with me, and the O'Meara brothers, and Bailey Newbury, uh- Mm-hmm... 10:08 up in Wisconsin, and he had some basically prototype, let's call them- Yeah, he did... pre-production- Yeah... frame bag and bags. 10:16 And he, you know, we were talking and talking and, uh, at that time there were a few bag companies that I w- really thought were pretty solid. Mm-hmm. But not... You know, now there's, like, a ton. Yeah. Um, 10:34 when you, when Sedero was coming, I think the first thing that's identifiable on a bag is the fabric. Yeah. So now we're seeing a huge gamut of fabrics being used from- Mm-hmm... 10:48 Cuban fiber and ultralight things to waxed canvas, which I wanna talk about specifically in regards to Sedero. Mm-hmm. But the, the middle ground seems to be denier a- and Cordura, right? Yeah. 11:01 Those tend to be the most popular. Can you kinda talk about how those two major fabrics differ than what Sedero uses, and just why you like to use that fabric? Yeah. 11:13 So we use either 1000D, uh, or 1000 denier Cordura, uh, nylon or- Oh, and the other one is in, what, VX? What's the VX one? Is the, yeah, the VX-21 or the X-Pac, um, is- Yeah, X-Pac. Yeah. That's, I mean, 11:29 the vast majority of pack makers are using some sort of a laminated X-Pac, VX-21, or some variant of that, which, um, has its origins in sailcloth. 11:40 So it's, it was designed originally, they needed a fabric that didn't stretch at all, you know, in a sail. Mm-hmm. So the, you know, these huge sails. 11:49 Um, so what they did is they, they sandwich, you know, the, that X grid pattern of fiberglass fibers in there, 'cause of course glass doesn't stretch. 11:57 So, um, that's how they got a fully static sail out of this new, you know, synthetic fabric that ha- inherently has some stretch in it. 'Cause nylon and, and polyester too, um, actually will absorb a little bit of water. 12:11 There's a little inherent stretch. Um, they'll kind of expand and contract, uh, with humidity, and so that, that glass fiber really keeps it pretty stable. 12:20 Um, so Dan actually just, you know, going back to his ex- experience, um, you know, in the early 2000s when that fabric was really-Being made available, um, he did a bunch of... 12:31 Or they actually did a few packs with it, and, um, discovered that it's got some strengths and, and weaknesses. Um, the major one being because it absorbs water, and there's essentially three layers there. 12:45 You know, there's two, one on each side, and then the glass in between. Um, when you have a pack that's getting folded a bunch of times and it's getting wet repeatedly- Mm-hmm... uh, it tends to delaminate. 12:57 And because there's different, you know, a lot of times the liner [knocks] fabric on the inside and that outside fabric that's bonded together, um, have a slightly different, uh, expansion coefficient when it gets wet. 13:10 And so what happens is, over time, that happens a bunch of times, and on, on a molecular level, it separates. Um, so, you know, he kinda... They, they did a few packs with it and decided this stuff's coming apart. 13:25 [laughs] So they stopped using it and went back to using Cordura. Um, and so that's what we use now. It's the... You know, it's a woven fabric. And, um, it's, it's a... 13:38 The Cordura, you know, refers to the actual type of spun nylon yarn essentially that they... that gets woven into a fabric. 13:48 And then the denier is how, um, basically how, um, thick those fibers are, like how, uh, large that weave is. So the burlier fabric has a higher denier rating. Um- Like TPI. Yeah, exactly. Kind of. Yep. Kind of, right? 14:04 Es- essentially, yep. An attire, a thick, a coarser one- Yep... or a thinner one would be... Yep. And, and just to talk on, because X-Pac is very popular in things- Mm-hmm... 14:15 it's probably, since it's laminated like that, generally a little lighter. Yep. Yeah, so that's- And yeah. Yeah. There, there are some things I wanna get into- Definitely some benefits, yeah... 14:26 Cordura specifically, because it's succeeded for me in places that I, I have experienced the same things Dan has experienced- Yeah... 14:35 as X-Pac maybe led the way in some of the more modern bike packing bags as we were- Yep... being more exploratory. So just- For sure... to kind of give some credibility and credence to X-Pac, you know? Absolutely. 14:47 And we... There's actually, um... We actually do use some X-Pac, and we use it on the inside of a few of our packs. Uh, so it has its place definitely, um, like the liner of our seat packs. 14:58 The Alger and the Drummond both have that. Um, the Devil's Kettle and the Devil's Draw have that, um, because the liners are not getting folded a bunch. 15:09 You know, it's, it's not an exterior fabric that is being abraded, and it's not getting repeatedly folded. Um, so yeah, it definitely has its place. 15:19 If it's in a place that, you know, it's a bigger piece of fabric under tension, it's the perfect... You know, that's what it was designed for. Um, so yeah, it definitely has its applications. We use it. 15:28 Uh, we just don't use it in the same way that a lot of other manufacturers do. [laughs] Yeah. So. Yeah, and that's- Yeah... I think why, you know, um, it's nice to see a prevalency of bags. 15:41 Because if you're conscious and you're educated on why things... You know, you could maybe mitigate. You know, if you were super weight conscious, you could mitigate folding your bag maybe, you know- Yeah... 15:52 and get more life. But- For sure... for someone who's an everyday, it's just gonna get rough, e- right? Yep. Mm-hmm. 15:58 So now let's get back to Cordura, and s- and, and I wanna lead into waterproof, water-resistant, but I think that's twofold. Yeah. 16:08 But I, I feel like the fabric always gets most of the credibility for water resistance versus waterproof. Yeah. Um, so when you are using Cordura, um, one thing I want everyone to know and they'll see is the palette. 16:24 You know, um, Cordura to me looks like a more natural bag, I think is why I'm a little more, uh, akin to it- Mm-hmm... uh, than a m- a more, uh... X-Pac looks kinda stealthy, kinda techy. Yeah. For sure. Cordura... 16:40 Would you not agree with that? Yep, for sure. And so my bike packing in the woods preference is I like a little more natural looking, uh, thing. 16:47 But what other benefits does Sedero get out of using Cordura in across-the-board bag creation? Yeah. So Cordura, um, like you said, it is a little more natural. It, it feels like more of a natural- Softer... woven. 17:05 Yeah, it's softer. Um, one of the cool things about Cordura is that because it's a woven fabric instead of something that's, like, bonded, um, to another layer, is that it has some give to it. 17:18 It has some st- inherent stretch. 17:20 And so when you think about, you know, dragging a pack over some rough rocks or something like that, um, whereas a m- a more static fabric is tends to get abraded more easily, uh, Cordura has a little bit of give to it, and so it can kind of, kind of flow with the abrasion a little more and, um, resist, you know, wearing a hole as quickly. 17:41 You can wear a hole through it, as I actually think you've have done. [laughs] We'll get to that. We'll get to that. We've done some, we've done some repairs. But, um, 17:49 but all in all, you know, as a little more flexible fabric, uh, it, it does really well in an abrasive situation, and it's a little softer. Um, especially in our s- cold climate, it doesn't get as stiff as some other... 18:05 Like an X-Pac wheel gets real crunchy when it's 20 below zero, whereas Cordura stays pretty pliable. So, um, yeah. And we can talk about the, the waterproofness/water resistance of it, um, if you want. Yeah. 18:20 How, how much of... Uh, maybe we should lead with how much of calling a bag waterproof, water-resistant, water...Not resi- [laughs] I don't... You know, anything else really Yeah, yeah. 18:32 Just how much of that, um, proportionally is based on the fabric versus the closure point- Yeah... or the seams or- Mm-hmm... uh, you know what I mean? What's the proportions there? Yeah. So 18:47 I mean, so many people want to hear waterproof, you know- Right... when they buy a pack. Um, what a lot of people maybe... W- or I guess what we've discovered when we're, when we're using packs is that, 19:01 um, you know, Cordura is extremely water-resistant, especially the stuff we use. It does have a urethane coating on the backside of it, and it does have a DWR, uh, finish on the outside. So, you know, unless... 19:17 until the bag gets really abraded, um, water's gonna bead up and roll off of that stuff. And if it gets wetted out, that urethane coating will prevent water from going through for the most part. Um, 19:29 one thing we don't do is we don't tape our seams. Uh, and so potentially you could have water coming through, uh, in through a seam. 19:39 However, so when we think about waterproof versus water-resistant, um, one of my main priorities is I want the pack to be able to dry if it does get wet. And so if you think about a waterproof pack, when... 19:51 once you get water in there, it's incredibly difficult for that to tr- actually dry out when you're out on a trail. Right. Um, 'cause it's... You know, water doesn't wanna get in and doesn't wanna get out. 20:03 So that's one consideration. Uh, another consideration is waterproof packs are waterproof until they're not. And so [laughs] 20:11 if you're relying on just that one layer of, you know, a dry bag or something and you have your clothes, you know, just stuffed in there and you get a pinhole in it and you cross a stream or you have a really wet day, it can be a real bummer when you open up your waterproof pack and everything's wet. 20:26 So, um, our approach is a little more, uh... The packs are almost waterproof. They're very water-resistant. 20:36 Um, we a- actually use three layers of fabric or three layers of materials, which is a little different from a lot of other manufacturers. 20:43 A lot of, you know, manufacturers are using a, a single layer of X-Pac, which has its place. It's super light. 20:49 Um, if you're doing ultralight stuff, that might be the pack for you, and there's some awesome companies that are making packs out of that stuff. Yeah. Say you're in the desert. Yeah, exactly. Yep, for sure. Um, 21:01 but so we use a, uh, the outer fabric, which is either waxed canvas or Cordura, and then we have a foam stiffener in all the panels, and that's closed-cell foam. Um, it's pretty thin, and that's waterproof, you know? 21:18 So that's one more layer, and it adds some structure to the pack. And then we have a liner in there, which is a 200 denier Cordura, so it's lighter weight, and that is water-resistant up to 200 PSI per, per square inch. 21:33 So that's, that's an insane amount of pressure to force water through that fabric. 21:37 Um, so really the only, you know, intrusion points we would have on a Sedero pack is through the seams and then th- potentially through the zipper. And we can talk about zippers if you want. 21:48 Um- We're gonna talk about zippers... that's maybe a, maybe a whole nother thing. Yeah, it's gonna be a whole another thing 'cause- But-... I used to hate zippers- Yeah... so bad. Um- Yeah... 21:56 but I think, I think two, two points that I wanna just read from there is, A, no matter what bag you're using, I always recommend to people put stuff in a dry bag in a dry bag. Yes. Because you just don't know, you know? 22:13 Yep. Like you said. Um, and the other thing I'd say is one, um... when I used to... 22:19 when I was in the shop, I guess, um, and I'd sell bags and people would ask for waterproof, water-resistant, I would say that in my personal experience in rain, uh, water had never gotten in my bag, and that included- Yeah... 22:32 being in rain for four days straight in our honeymoon in Oregon. Yeah. [laughs] Like, with n- not a break, you know? Cool. Yeah. Um, but could I put it in the bathtub with me and expect it to be dry? No. Yeah. 22:45 So you have to make a priority there. You do. Um, I've always found that my bags, um, from Sedero, I, I'm on my f- I think I have had four frame bags, or I currently have two- Mm-hmm... 22:57 but I had two others, and my wife has one. And I can't, honest to God, remember a time that in regular riding non-submersion- Yeah... 23:08 situations that I've ever had water in my bag, and unfortunately/fortunately there's been some pretty harrowing times. Yeah. [laughs] You know, survived them, so fortunately. Yeah. Uh. [laughs] It happens. 23:21 It, it does, and I think w- we'll get to this too, how and why bags and w- and safety and- Mm-hmm... 23:30 reliability and value of owning bags that you're familiar with, whether it is Sedero by and large works for me and my wife, but she has Obey Negra bags on her bike. Mm-hmm. I have a Bedrock seat bag and bigger handlebar. 23:44 You know? Yeah. It, it's plug and play, but you gotta find what works best for you. For sure. Um... I think that's a good point too 'cause the... 23:53 I mean, there's so many companies now, like you said, you know, compa- there were only a few, I mean, even like five, six years ago, and now there's a bunch of people that are making kinda niche, you know, stuff. 24:05 And it's, it's pretty cool to see that, um, kind of proliferation as people are bike packing more. They have a need in whatever climate they're in, you know? Um, so I think that's, I think that's pretty cool. 24:18 Yeah, and one thing I think is really nice in the bike or bag industry is, like, Sedero makes bags that seem like they come from northern Minnesota. 24:28 Uh, you know, other com- Bedrock makes bags that seem like they come from the Durango. You know, like- Sure. Yeah... the bags have some regionality- Yeah... 24:38 um, because the creators and the producers are, are using them, and that's what they're testing in. Yep. Um, so it's really-You know, uh, my first big seat ba- not first, but 24:50 later first big seat bag is a Bedrock Coconino. Mm-hmm. Because I was looking at doing the Kokopelli Trail. Yeah. Well- [laughs]... Andrew and Joey had ridden those bags there. Yeah. 25:01 You know, like, and so I- I said, "Okay." Um, so it- Yeah... it's fun to see and plug and play, you know, um, where your values come from. Mm-hmm. 25:11 Uh, because, like you said, bags are manipulated in so many different ways. Yep. Uh, stabilizers, and we'll get onto all of these features. 25:21 Uh, the one thing I wanna touch on, and we'll get to a break, uh, pretty soon, and we may carry over, but another fabric that you use that I don't have a full bag of yet, but I have multiple s- I think I have five multiple, you know, small bags of it. 25:37 And it's a- Yep... it's a material that I just, um, I feel compelled to, uh, be engaged with, is waxed canvas. Yeah. 25:48 Um, many people, I think, are familiar with the concept or the term waxed canvas, but I think there's a lot of misconceptions about what it is, why you'd use it, colors and aesthetics that are available. 26:03 Um, a timeless material to me though. Mm-hmm. I feel like if I ever felt like I was not gonna sell a bike, I would buy a waxed canvas [laughs] frame bag for it. But I don't know- Yeah... when that'll be. 26:15 [laughs] You know what I mean? Uh, it's just- Yeah, I hear you. I hear you. So talk about wa- talk about... This is only, what? A year and a half old in waxed canvas, a year old? There was some dabblings, but not... 26:27 Didn't come at the beginning. Yeah. Yeah, we, we didn't really get into using waxed canvas until probably, yeah, 2019 really. Um, we were a couple, few years in, and, uh, we just... 26:40 One of our, our, our lead sewer actually, um, Devon, had some, had some fabric kicking around. And so we just kinda started playing with it, did a test one. 26:51 And, you know, a lot of waxed canvas packs historically have been, it's waxed canvas with leather, you know, accoutrements, uh, and brass- Big nylon straps and stuff. Yeah. Like, uh, brass hardware. 27:06 You know, brass buckles- Right, 'cause that's classic material. It's classic, yeah. So that, it's been around forever, you know. 27:11 And, you know, thinking back to the, the earliest portage packs and stuff, that was all, you know, canvas and leather and metal. 27:18 So, um, a lot of that still has validity today and, um, there's some great manufacturers still doing that. 27:26 Um, what we hadn't really seen and what we started testing out is can we make a technical pack out of waxed canvas? Right. 27:33 So we're using our, you know, our nylon hardware, uh, or, um, yeah, nylon hardware, nylon ha- fabrics, uh, on the inside, our... the foam stiffeners. 27:45 And there's kind of an intangible here where some fabrics, you sew them together and they just feel wrong. You know? They, the hand is wrong, it just, it doesn't work as a cohesive piece. 27:57 And so, um, that's the reason we don't offer mixing and matching of waxed canvas and Cordura in the outer fabric of a pack. 28:07 You can get all sorts of different color combos, but we won't mix those fabrics together 'cause they, they just don't feel like they should be together on the same pack- Sure... 28:17 uh, in the way that a full waxed canvas bag does. Also, the way it wears, the way it sews. There's a few other reasons, but, um, so yeah, we, we started playing with it. 28:26 Um, we sewed a tank top out of it, and tried it out, and tried to, you know, beat the heck out of it. And, you know, waxed canvas is cool. 28:35 It, it, uh, instead of abrading if it's rubbing on your frame or other packs or cables, it kinda burnishes in this nice way, um, instead of, you know, getting kinda fuzzy or pilled or anything like that. 28:48 So it, it does have this timeless thing where it starts to tell a story over time, over years of- And it can be conditioned. 28:56 Yeah, you can recondition it or you can leave it alone, so that's, that's one of the other neat things. It's, you know, at, at its core it's just a, a cotton canvas. Yeah. 29:05 And so, um, you know, canvas, when tho- those fibers get wet, they swell and they create kind of a water-resistant barrier y- when it gets wetted out. 29:15 Um, now that does take longer to dry, you know, than like a nylon or something like that. 29:20 So I tell people who are living in a really wet climate, if they're commuting every day or something, might wanna think about nylon. But, um, I mean, heck, I have it on my fat bike in the wintertime. 29:31 I love it 'cause it, it, it, um, patinas nicely. It's a... You know, it doesn't abrade, um, very easily. And so, uh, it's, it's not waterproof per se. Like I said, once it gets wetted out, it, it creates some sort of a, 29:48 some sort of a barrier. Functionally. Function- I think that's the o- the word that I like. Functionally waterproof. Yeah. Like, if you're gonna throw it in the o- uh, the ocean, no. Yeah. You got bigger fish to fry. 29:59 Exactly. Bikes in the ocean. Yeah. And if you- [laughs] Thank you. I, I tell people, if you're gonna, if you're gonna be scuba diving with your bike, I mean- Yeah, sure... we can have... 30:08 That's a whole different conversation we can have. [laughs] Right. Don't buy a bag from Minnesota. Yeah. Right. The epicenter of scuba div- bike scuba diving. That's right. That's right. 30:17 Dude, new market, million-dollar idea. [laughs] Uh, also before we go to break, hot take, Carl. I like saying this 'cause I don't really understand what hot take means. Sure. 30:26 Um, people who have sat on a B17 Brooks saddle for six months to get it perfect should all own waxed canvas bags. [laughs] Yeah, I think if... There's something there for sure. 30:39 Slash if you've ever invested in a titanium rail Brooks saddle- Yes... you should own- Yep... waxed canvas bags. Yep. Yeah, we're actually gonna be starting that program, uh, next week. Get in touch with us. 30:50 We'll be, uh-Be selling those as combos Yeah, Swift Ties. I love that saddle, I want one, but I'm never gonna pay for it. Um, Carl, let's take a break. I'm gonna refill on some coffee. Cool. We're gonna come back. 31:01 We're gonna talk about features of bags. We're gonna talk about my love-hate relationship with zippers- [laughs]... 31:08 um, and why I'm not a crazy person and really th- there's a, a wi- you know, there's some things to zippers. Then I wanna talk about custom bags and what Sedero does with custom bags. So- Cool... 31:20 we're gonna take a break. Hold on, Carl. We'll be right back. Heck yeah. Hey, everybody. I am back with Carl Mesdal from Sedero Bags in Two Harbors, Minnesota. 31:33 We've been talking about fabrics and kind of the background of Sedero, and a lot of things we brought up is, uh, little features, and specifically something that I, at one point, considered not a feature, uh, zippers. 31:48 Um, I- I'm gonna tell the story because I think it's the only thing that lends credibility to how much I hated zippers for a while. 31:57 Um, when I was in, uh, Emporia running Gravel City, um, we used to stock pretty standard seat bags. I'm not even sure what they were. 32:08 Um, they were fine, you know, your traditional $30 seat bag with a zipper and a flap, you know. Mm-hmm. And, uh, we hadn't carried Sedero yet, but, uh, I'd been exposed to the Drummond first- Yeah... 32:23 which is the larger capacity, much larger than a traditional seat bag. And you have an Alger, which is still by normal seat bag standards for most cyclists, a pretty big seat bag. Yeah. Um, and w- I had ridden 32:40 two rides in probably a week in kind of mucky gravel, and broke two bag zippers- [laughs]... in two rides, and I was not happy. 32:49 [laughs] Um, and so I was looking at this Alger, uh, and we brought it in and it was about... uh, it retails at 99.99. Yeah. Uh, and I n- just to lend some to that, I now own I don't know how many of them. 33:03 I love this bag. [laughs] Yeah. But it's a drawstring, no zipper to be found on this bike. Drawstring and then a cap. Yep. And I brought them in and I was talking to- Oh... 33:12 Isaac, my little buddy at the shop, and Bobby Thompson, and, uh, they're like, "Eh," you know, it's like going from $25 to $100 was a large jump just in retail, and it was based on my anger at zippers really. 33:27 [laughs] Yeah. And we brought them in, and I heard from so many people time and time again the zipper had come undone on a ride and their CO2 had fallen out. 33:39 They didn't get the zipper all the way closed and it worked its way back open. The zipper no longer could move or pulled right off at a land run or any murky gravel ride. And I was like, "I'm not crazy." Yeah. 33:52 Zippers fail all the time. Mm-hmm. That led Josh, the previously mentioned Josh, to challenge me basically to, uh, break my frame bag zipper. Um- Yeah... because what... 34:07 You use a specific zipper size on the frame bag, uh, for specific reasons. Can you... It's a YK... Is it YYK or YKK? Uh, so we use a mixture of zipper coils. Some of ours are YKK. 34:20 Um, the ones that we use on our frame bags and all of our, like, tank top packs, anything like that, is a number nine Ideal zipper. Oh. Ideal is a US company. Um, and- I think it might be the Ideal zipper, Carl... yeah. 34:37 So the Ideal zipper is the, that's, if you have a frame pack, that's what's on it. Um- It's, it-... and it's a, it's a coil zipper... I was wrong. Yeah. Yeah. Uh- You talked about me breaking a bag or rubbing one raw. 34:49 [laughs] Yeah. The reason that I rubbed a bag raw, everyone's like, "Oh, you rubbed a bag?" And I was like, "Yeah." And they're like, "Your l- knees?" "Nah." "Thighs?" "Nah." 35:00 You know, my, I had that bag stuffed so full- [laughs]... that it rubbed the single ring on my cutthroat- [laughs]... to the point where it wore through the outer fabric on a bike packing trip, and the zipper, 35:15 I don't even recall struggling with it. [laughs] And that was the time that I had to be like, dang, like most things, there are levels. Yeah. I had just never considered the functionality of a nice zipper in- Yeah... 35:30 certain circumstances, right? Yep. And I feel like that was one of the hard things, 'cause there's a lot of people that have tried to get around zippers even in full frame bags. Yep. You know? That's right. 35:41 Roll top and, and a- all kinds of stuff. And- Mm-hmm... I was wrong ab- about it. Now, I still love the drawstring feature of the Alger, but- For sure... ta- kind of talk about, you know, when and why certain... 35:57 and leading to features, you know? Yeah. 'Cause you have a great zipper, right? So you theoretically use it on a tank top bag, so it's not all- Mm-hmm... a coarseness. Yep. 36:06 You could have made a tr- more traditional looking flap, I'll call them flap style- Yeah... zippered seat bag. Yeah. Um, what leads Sedero and you and Dan and the team to kind of, 36:21 this feature here because this, this feature here because this, and go. Cool. Yeah. 36:28 So one of the kind of overarching, I guess, guiding kind of design principles that we have is Sedero will never really make a product that someone else is already doing really, really well without putting our own either, you know, twist on it or making it functionally better in some way. 36:53 So I mean, there's a lot of-You know, good seat packs with some zippers out there. Sure. And so, but there's not a lot of good seat packs with a drawstring that are expandable in that size of the Alger. 37:08 There's a lot of, like, big ones, you know? Yeah. 37:11 Um, [lips smack] for stuffing your sleeping bag into, but there's not, you know, that, that size that you can still throw on your mountain bike for your day ride or on your gravel bike for your day ride and have, you know, maybe an extra puffier windbreaker stuffed in there, but, um, not have it be too big. 37:29 So yeah, that's kind of our, our... one of our main guiding principles. 37:34 You know, it, it's the reason we haven't done a really large seat pack yet, um, because, you know, there's a lot of them out there, and honestly we don't end up using them that much. We, we just- I do, Carl. I do. 37:47 I will. Yeah. [laughs] I know. I know. I know. [laughs] So that, I mean, it'll probably be... might be something in the future we do, but honestly, there's some, there's some great ones out there already. 37:58 So until we have something that we feel like it's, you know, somehow different and adds to that conversation, um, generally we, we won't be doing something just for the sake of doing it. 38:11 Um, so you know, like I, I, I talked about the Drummond going all the way back to, you know, the mid-'80s. Um, that was kind of the, 38:19 you know, the genesis of that seat pack, and so it was not a large leap to go from that to the Alger, make it a little smaller. Right. 38:27 Um, so we had some good experience, you know, with the Drummond of testing and whatnot, that closure system, expandability. 38:34 Um, but yeah, there's, there's times where you want a flap, there's times when you want a zipper. Um, you know, I've found that a zipper in a frame pack, [lips smack] uh, once we kinda... 38:45 We tested a lot of different zippers and I- we've got a drawer full of sealed zippers, hypalon zippers, uh, Vislon zippers. You know, we've got all sorts of zippers that we've tried over the years and, 38:58 uh, partially 'cause Dan had done a lot of his homework, um, partially 'cause we just kinda torture tested stuff. Uh, we found, you know, a sealed zipper gets jammed up really easily. Oh, yeah. 39:11 Es- especially when it's in the cold like we are a lot. Yeah. And, um, tends to, tends to fail at the time when you really don't want it to fail. 39:19 So I mean, that kinda ties back into the waterproof versus water resistant conversation, 'cause our, our large coil zipper, it's not technically a sealed zipper, but it has a DWR on it coating, so water does bead up and roll off of it. 39:37 Um, but you'd really have to, you know, aim a hose, like a high pressure hose directly at that coil to get it to, you know- Push through... push through. 39:48 So for us, you know, I mean, riding around Oklahoma and around Emporia and stuff, it's... when you have that, that kinda mud, you know, in a zipper, a smaller coil just isn't gonna cut it. 40:02 You need a larger coil that can push that mud out between those teeth, um, for it to actually continue running, so. Right. Um, yeah, so that's kinda how we ended up there. 40:12 And again, it's like if you need stuff to s- absolutely stay dry, put it in a dry bag inside your frame pack and you can be- Right... pretty comfortable. Um, we've only... 40:23 We have actually warrantied two zippers, I will say. There's been two- Wow... uh, out of I don't know how many, how, how many we have. I've never done it yet. 40:31 [sighs] I think we have, like, close to [laughs] 15,000 packs out in the wild now or something like that. God, I throw my bags like an a-hole. [laughs] So the... 40:40 I'll say the two, the two, uh, [knocks] warranties we did was, uh, one was for Dray Johnson. He did the Tour Divide, 40:48 and he admittedly just overstuffed it, and it actually wasn't the, the teeth that failed, it was actually the... He tore the actual zipper chain- From the bag... out from the fabric. So- Yeah. [laughs]... 40:59 the zipper was fine. We just had to sew it back in. Um, and then the other one was, uh, Todd Paquette, who- Oh, yeah. Todd will break anything... you know, during... Gosh. 41:07 Yeah, if you want, if you want something to go through the wringer, just give it to Todd. So, um- Todd's a maniac. I had him on this. It was awesome. Oh, yeah. He's awesome. 41:15 So he actually, he [laughs] actually wore out the metal slider with all the, like, dust and mud. So we [laughs] we just had to pop a new slider on for him. He was good to go. But- Good job, Todd. [laughs] Uh, exactly. 41:26 I feel like he, uh, he earned some sort of award, you know? Dude, I wanna- So... I don't wanna break any of my zippers, but that is good company. Oh, yeah. [laughs] Something to s- something to strive for. Yeah. 41:36 I mean- And if you... when you do, let me know. [laughs] I had that... I tried so hard. Um, [laughs] you know, uh, so a couple things. 41:45 I, I, I razz about a big seat bag 'cause that's kind of an ongoing joke between Carl and I. [laughs] But I think that is a good... What you're saying is exactly what we were saying in the first part. Certain brands 42:01 do bag styles, um, not perfect, right, but like, really, really good. Yeah. Uh, well. And everyone has verified that they work really well through the wringers for years. Yeah. You know? Yeah. And so it's like I... 42:18 One thing I liked that turned me on to the Alger was the difference, and the Drummond. Because you, you know, neither of those bags are traditional bag size- Right... in the, in the cyclist mind. Mm-hmm. 42:33 Most people go to, like, what you would see as a large or maybe extra large bag- Yeah... from like a Bontrager or a Specialized, and that's still probably 200, uh, you know, cubic centimeters or whatever, small. 42:49 I mean, it's maybe a two-thirds of the size of the Alger- Yeah... let alone, you know, three-eighths of the size of a Drummond. Um-Can-- And then the big bags, like a Revelate, the Scotch, are then going to much more... 43:04 Can you lay out the, uh, the liter volumes of those bags? Yeah. Just to give kind of a relationship between, um, m- numerically for people to kind of establish- Sure... 43:15 if they've never actually held a Drummond or an Alger. Yeah. So the, the Alger and Drummond are both expandable. 43:21 They have kind of an overflow that you can, you know, stuff full, and the, the cap has some travel so you can really stuff something in there if you need to. 43:31 So, um, when it's fully packed out like that and the, the cinch on the lid is fully extended, um, the Alger holds about two liters. Um, and then the Drummond is about four. 43:43 So Alger really is about half the capacity of a Drummond. Um, and yeah, that is kind of the, kind of an in-between size. 43:52 You know, the, the Drummond especially is kind of a-- There's not really much else out there- It's a weird-... in that size... let's be honest. It is a weird bag. 44:01 [laughs] When you hold that bag, it's a weird-looking bag. It is, yeah. It outs much more vertically- Yeah... on a bike, um- Yeah... 44:09 than a traditional-- Like, I looked at it and thought it'd be, like, fendering out, you know? And it really- Yeah... just kind of wraps up and under. Mm-hmm. 44:18 But let's talk about the Drummond, since it was kind of a lead bag. 44:22 And I think that, you know, we're gonna go over the whole what you guys do, but, like, top tube bags, yes, like, a lot of bag manufacturers make awesome top tube bags. Yeah. 44:32 Um, even to go so far as to say you make two versions of what I branch under the feed bag. Uh, you call- Yeah... uh, Sedero calls them the devil's kettles, uh, in a couple sizes and a couple closures. 44:44 But, like, conceptually, I think people understand what feed bags and top tube bags do now. Yeah. The Drummond, though, is a weird bag. [laughs] Yeah. 44:58 It's got three-- two basic, three expansion points, uh, what I'll call, uh, from the seat. So- Yep... vertically kind of. Yeah. 45:10 Uh, it's got all that elongation, and it's become my winter bag because I never kept my Coconino full enough. Mm-hmm. Its minimum capacity is, like, seven liters- Mm-hmm... 45:27 maybe, you know, all rolled down. Those bigger bags, the Biscotta, those things. Yeah. But, uh, an undergarment, uh, gloves, and a hat, plus some tools is really, you know, more like in the four liter- Yeah... 45:44 uh, three liter volume. Maybe an extra water bottle or some hand warmers. Those kind of things that I consider to be, uh, safety bonuses on winter- Yeah... riding. Yep. 45:55 Um, and that Drummond is, like, maybe I'm the only one-- Maybe I just should pack more, but it seems to be a real hot spot- [laughs]... 46:02 especially when I'm considering some additional lightweight garments or vests and rain gear. In the spring and fall, I've started to expand my usage of that bike. Yeah. That bag on bikes. Yeah. That one is, um... 46:18 I mean, Dan had that cinch system pretty well dialed in, uh, from years ago, and I, I think a lot of that came from, you know, his experience making backpacks where, you know, you're stabilizing a lot of different, you know, 46:34 lot of different configurations on the same backpack- Yeah... you know, to make it still, make it ride correctly on your hips and on your back. So, 46:43 um, yeah, those cinch straps are-- You can have the thing completely empty and it's not gonna feel like a, you know, just kind of this loose thing sitting back there. 46:54 It'll, it'll fully collapse down, um, or it'll fully expand out. So yeah, I use it in the winter as well. I mean, that's my, that's my winter pack. 47:02 That or the Alger, depending on how far I'm going, 'cause I can stuff an extra puffy in there and an extra set of, you know, dry gloves. 47:09 And, um, it is kind of a, for, for where we are, especially so far north, it is a safety issue to be able to carry that k- kind of stuff. So, um, [smacks lips] yeah, that one's... 47:22 You know, it's weird 'cause we sell a lot of, a lot of Algers, probably more than Drummonds, um, 'cause the Drummond really is a niche thing, but it'll never go away 'cause it, it is kind of its own, its own little beast. 47:32 So... I feel like the Drummond is one of those bags that if you take the leap with some education at a dealer or calling Sedero, you know- Mm-hmm... and it is the bag for you, you'll be like, "Whoa." 47:46 And like you said, I even don't-- I don't know any other bag in the, we'll call it the class of, like, the Drummond. I just don't. I really don't. Yeah. Um, and I think that makes it niche, yes. 48:00 But when it hits the target, it's a dead on-- It's a bullseye, you know? It's kind of one of- Yeah... those things. Uh, not for your weekend ride with your group ride to carry a tube and a multi-tool by any means. 48:12 Yeah, for sure. But when you're off the beaten path, you're getting north, I'm looking out into the snow outside my window, we're on fatbike.com, and a lot of stuff go out about winter riding, not all of it- Yep... 48:26 but a lot, and we talk a lot about, like, safety for yourself, consideration for the people you're riding with. Yep. You know, all these things, um, in the winter, one deterrent to a group ride 48:42 can often end the group ride. For sure. Um, a flat tire because someone didn't maintain their tubeless or whatever, a somebody gets too cold and the group, for their sake, has to move on. Yeah. Well, you can be... 48:58 You know, I always wanna be the one that has an extra puffy in my bag. They can be like, "Yo, put this on," 'cause I'm not done riding.Yeah. [laughs] Yeah. You know? Or- For sure... put this on and you can go. 49:08 Now I know you're safe to get there. Um, but it also, you know, I, I just think it's a good way to make sure that when you go out in more daunting, uh, situations, that you can have the gear with you. 49:23 Scotty O'Mara and I just had a, uh, I was talking to him on the phone, and we were talking about how we carry so many lux- quote, unquote, "luxuries," that we would have considered luxuries five years ago, 10 years ago in bike packing. 49:37 Yeah. Mm-hmm. And he's just like, "I don't know, I just like being comfortable." And I'm like, "Hell yeah. I just want-" [laughs] Yeah... new gloves and a new hat. Makes me feel great. Yeah. You know? Why, why got rude? 49:48 Yeah. So I think, I think that that's the twofold that, uh, what's beautiful about and why I'm so into bags, um, whether they be Sidero, which I have 50:00 tried and have been true to me, or other brands that I- have been tried and true to me, um, th- they're a l- they make me more comfortable 50:11 by proxy, so I have a more enjoyable ride, and I feel like they make my ride safer. Yeah. You know? And I think that's... 50:21 Or if my wife and I are out on the fat bikes, we can make sure that if anything goes wrong, 'cause it could, it's fat biking, you know? Yep. And it's cold. Yep. 50:30 Um, that we can take care of each other and sustain riding so that the overall riding experience just, I mean, that confidence alleviates so much of, I think the, uh, inhibitors to going out in 15 degrees, let's say, to start, or 10 degrees to start, let's say. 50:47 Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. Um- Yeah, we've, we've had some, you know, the, the Arrowhead 135 is right in our backyard here, and, you know, that's famously a ultra cold race. 50:58 It just seems like it always falls on a weekend that's, you know- Terrible... 35 below. Yeah. Uh, actual temp, not wind chill, actual temps, you know? 51:07 So the people that are doing that, I mean, they, they check all their gear, you know, kinda independently before they let anyone out on that course. 51:16 And we've been making the, the packs for the medical team, um, for some years, um, for that race, and they have someone who's out on the course sweeping, you know, just to make sure that everyone makes it back in all right. 51:30 Right. Um, but yeah, when you're out in temps like that, um, I mean, let alone, I mean, 15 degrees is a dangerous temperature if you're not prepared. 20 de- Yeah... 51:39 25 degrees is a dangerous temperature if you're not prepared. 40 degrees is a dangerous temperature if you're not prepared. Absolutely. Yep. 51:47 Ab- So yeah, that's- And mostly being prepared is having, I think, the personal access to at least I can stay here- Yeah... and survive for a while. Yeah. 52:01 Let alone the next level of I could im- implement these luxuries or tools to continue moving. You know? Yeah. First and foremost, just know if all hell breaks loose, you can hunker down. Yep. You know? Yep. 52:13 And that's usually as simple as, like, a puffy or some kind of wind vest or something, you know, a hat, gloves- Mm-hmm... those kind of things. And, and capacity and bags 52:25 allow you to do that in negative space that you had not, that I know I had not considered- Yeah... as a place to put things, you know? Yeah. Like, it just hadn't dawned on me, and I feel like, 52:40 you know, I don't know, Carousel Design Works was my first big frame bag. That was in like 2007, or first big, uh, seat bag. That was like 2007. Uh-huh. 52:48 And it blew my mind as far as like, wow, when we go on these things, look what I can have with me. Yeah. Yeah. Make sure that I am well taken care of. Mm-hmm. 52:58 Um, when we talk about that, you know, I think something people need to know, and, and need to understand, because there's a bit of magicianship, m- bit of magic, I think, that goes on, uh, is, 53:15 uh, Sidero could make a bag, and most manufacturers can make a bag for every bike. 53:22 You know, you have a luxury of having two, uh, spoken gear in the same compound, so you have some hands-on access to Salsa Fat Bikes, Norco, I think, Fat Bikes, and- Yep... and some brands like that. 53:35 But if I've got a Trek, you know, and I want a Sidero frame bag, because that's perfect, it matches, the blue matches, I know that one from last year, uh- [laughs]... it's like, how do I... 53:50 I just put a ruler on my bike and I take a picture, and then it fits perfect? 53:55 I think that's the like, therein lies the skepticism or trepidation or, you know, hopefully they hear you talk and, and we, we do some, you know, this conversation makes people think, you know, "Oh, well, listen to Carl. 54:09 He just named five zippers. I don't even know what he's talking about. I only knew-" [laughs] "... zippers." You know? So there's that, but it is a detachment, I think. 54:18 If you've never done the measuring and the fitment to send to a bag company- Mm-hmm... and it seems like there's no way- Yeah... just putting a ruler on my top tube or whatever is gonna work. 54:29 Can you kinda walk that through? Sure. Should I walk into a Side- Sidero dealer- Mm-hmm... and I wanna order a custom pack, A, I could do it through you, but I can also do that through a dealer. That's right. Yep. 54:40 Um, and, and the next step is, walk us through that. Yeah. So, you know, in the very beginning we were using all paper templates. Yep. Oh, yeah. 54:53 And, um, yeah, so you'd, you know, so a lot of people use, like, wrapping paper, [laughs] you know, we, or cardboard. We get all sorts of different stuff. 55:01 Um, and then it, you know, after doing that, it's, that's a slow process and there's a lot of, you know, mar- you know, there's, there's some-Some areas for error, you know, opportunities for error with that, um, hand drawing stuff. 55:15 So we developed a system to, to do it digitally with the photo, and it's actually more accurate than using a paper template now, um, if the photo's taken correctly. 55:25 So we have a pretty detailed walkthrough on the website now on the custom frame pack page of how to take the perfect photo, and everyone has smartphones now, so, you know, you can do it. 55:37 Um, so yeah, basically from that photo- Do you have a smartphone, Carl? Dude, I have an iPhone 7. Oh, that's- I got a 7, dude... that's pretty smart, buddy. 55:46 [laughs] Honestly, this still feels pretty new to me, so- Yeah, I'm sure... it wasn't, it wasn't that long ago I was using a, a slider phone still, so. Uh-huh. I figured. Um- So anyways, sorry. Anyways, 55:58 uh, yeah, so we, we have this system where, um, I, I grab that photograph. Um, I use not just that ruler as a reference point, but I use the water bottle bosses. Those are always 64 millimeters apart. 56:11 Um, and then the head tube length on the frame is always a publicly, you know, posted on all the geometry charts. Um, you can always have that info. 56:19 So between those three or four reference points, um, usually can get within about a half a millimeter in as far as our scaling and accuracy goes, um- Ri- right, which is- Which is, like, with a- Nonexistent... 56:32 with a soft fabric, yeah, it's- Yeah, nonexistent... it'll, it'll fit. So, um- And variation, it's not like it's a buckle, fixed buckle for security. I mean, it's- Yeah... you can do things with the bags- Yeah... 56:44 to manipulate, you know, load- Yep... size, specifically in the frame bags. Exactly, yep. Yeah, so that's kind of our process, and we, we do use a, a CNC, um, cutting table to cut everything. So, um- Yeah... 56:57 you know, the accuracy, without, without that, it would be pretty difficult to, to do what we do. Um, so it's- This was the piece we were talking about. 57:04 Talk about this CNC machine because this, uh, as far as you know, that you guys have to be the only ones in your size using a 20 or 30-foot long CNC machine to cut fabric. Like- Yeah... when I first heard that, that was 57:20 another one of those things where I was like, "God dang, I didn't even know that it worked like that, really," you know? [laughs] Like, I don't know, I'm not a- Yeah... bag maker, I guess, is CNC. Yeah. 57:31 But you just think in the bike industry, you see CNC always associated with stems or milling aluminum or, you know- Mm-hmm... uh, manipulating metal. 57:41 You guys use it to cut out multiple pieces of fabric on one table out of big rolls. Yeah, that's right. Yeah, so we have a big, a big rack, uh, with all our rolls on it, and we can just pull down onto the table. 57:55 The table's actually the one we're running right now because our, our space is so small. Um, we just have an eight-foot long table. Oh. 58:02 And, uh, we do have an extension for it, so once we have a little larger space, we can throw that on. 58:07 But, um, but I mean, honestly for, yeah, as far as I know, I could be wrong about this, but as far as I know, like you said, you know, for our size of company where we're stocking dealers and also doing custom, um, we are the only company using one of these machines. 58:25 Um, and it's, yeah, it's- And I don't know that that's-- It, it just is, I think, to me. I mean, I- Yeah... it'd be hard to distinguish. It works great for you guys. Yeah, for sure. 58:34 Um, but that's gotta-- That machine has to come from Dan experience, right? Yeah. Yep. Yeah, so back in the, in the '90s actually, Granite Gear invested in one of these tables- Mm... 58:48 um, and they started digitizing their patterns and, um, so we're-- [laughs] Our table actually came out of an old Nike factory. Nice. 58:54 And, uh, you know, early 2000s, so our, our equipment's old compared, you know, in the realm of technology, it's old. 59:02 Uh, and you know, the software we're using is, I think the last, you know, version or patch for the one that we are running is 2005, you know? So it's, we're, you know- Perfect for you, Carl. It's perfect. 59:15 Yeah, I, you know, there, it, it has some pain points for sure, but it runs on just about any computer- Right... as you can imagine. [laughs] Um, so yeah. And I think like you said, um, for the, 59:31 you guys situationally- Yes... it, it's, it does what it does- Yep... because it is what it is. Yeah. It does, yeah. There's, there's the balance of, like, things, right? Yeah. 59:43 Not everyone was using the CNC to do this, or maybe somebody would develop new software or- Yeah... 59:50 you know, there'd be a proliferation of tables because now 50 bag manufacturers in just the United States are using it, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Yeah. Maybe that's still too small, but you know what I'm saying. 1:00:02 Yeah. Yeah, we, you know, it's-- I think there's kind of a misconception with technology in particular where, um, newer is always assumed to be better. Right. And it's not the case if it's the right tool for the job. 1:00:17 Yeah. And so, so far, you know, there are s- newer softwares, there's newer tables out there. 1:00:24 Um, but the newer version of the software we're using is not as efficient for our workflow, for the way that we do custom packs. 1:00:33 So it's like, until there's something that we try that is better, you know, we're gonna be, we're running our system. 1:00:39 And I, I would love if, you know, someone came up with something a little better, and there's actually some little tweaks that we've given feedback on and, and things but, um, but by and large, it's, you know, for what we do, that's what allows us to do custom packs. 1:00:53 You know, we watched a lot of companies over the last five years start out doing custom packs. 1:00:58 Um, they start stocking a few dealers, uh, or, or selling direct through their website, and the lead times just started going out and out- Snap out... and out. 1:01:07 And, um, I've talked to a few, you know, a few different people in those companies. They say, "You know, we just couldn't-Couldn't keep them, but we had to make a choice. 1:01:14 We're either gonna only do custom or we're gonna only do off-the-shelf stuff. And so, 1:01:21 um, we've been fortunate into being able to kind of hold both of those, uh, at the same time so far, um, with the equipment we have, so. And that was really, you know, Dan's foresight and- Yes... 1:01:34 experience coming in of, you know, we can, we can crank out, you know, 20 frame packs in a week pretty easily, you know? Um, as well as- Well, I think you guys get to live that-... have other stuff going... 1:01:45 you get to live that symbiotic relationship, being in the same building but being separate entities of- Yeah, for sure... wanting to support that bike shop with general color palettes of tank tops- Yep... but 1:02:01 also wanting to be next level. Uh, when we say custom bags, we're not just talking about fits, you know? Um, nowadays, y- you obviously have a vast color palette. How many colors do you offer in the Cordura right now? 1:02:16 Uh, in Cordura I think we've got, like, 14. 15, I thought. 15, yeah. But one might have been on or off. Yeah. Uh, wax canvas has five, I think. It's... Yeah, we're at five. Yep. 1:02:27 I also, like my wife's frame bag, a beautiful, uh, surprise when Carl delivered my wife's frame bag to our campsite- Oh, dude, that was so fun... which I'll never forget. 1:02:36 [laughs] Um, zipper pulls, zipper hoods can be customized in color. Yeah. Talk about kind of like it's more than just fit. Fit is- Yeah... not the customization. Fit, I feel like is the- That's the starting point... 1:02:50 blanket statement. It just goes in there. Now, how do we wanna customize a bag, um, or a gamut of bags, uh- Yeah... through Sedero? Talk about, like, what those options are, and how- Yeah... 1:03:02 you're always considering more and more in pieces and places. Yeah, yeah. Uh, yeah, so we can... Basically any panel on the pack can be a different color. Right. 1:03:13 Um, so that's- I think Rick Becker in Emporia had me do seven colors on a seat bag and a top tube. [laughs] Yeah, he did. That's right, he did. It's the fr- He might actually hold the record, yeah. They're ridiculous. 1:03:23 Yeah. They're awesome. Yeah. Uh, so yeah, color is definitely one area where we can do that. I know we did, you know, f- for a few people we've split some panels out for your, uh, bear grease pack, for Neil's pack. 1:03:35 You know I stole the pattern from Neil Belchenco. [laughs] Yep. Uh, he had it for 135 and it's very swoopy. It- that's... I'm gonna go ride my bike today and that frame bag is just money on that bike. Yeah. 1:03:48 It's- I mean, I don't own a black Sedero. I say I have had four frame bags. I don't- haven't had a black frame bag. Yeah, yeah. A Mukluk one that was custom purple. Uh- Oh, yeah... two Cutthroat bags. 1:04:03 My wife's bag has probably five different colors on it- Yep... including zipper pulls and- Oh, yeah... uh, my current Bear Grease bag is one of, you know, one of a kind basically. 1:04:13 They all are, but, you know, it's, it's just aesthetically I like, I like the looks of them. Uh- Yeah... why, you know, there are places to do patterns and stuff. 1:04:25 This is more of a, you know, 'cause Cordura is gonna just have, uh- Mm-hmm... multiple color things. But the one- Yeah... I wanna talk, I've said it a couple times, but nobody knows, the zipper hood. 1:04:36 Will you just talk about the zipper hood? [laughs] Yeah. Because I really feel that is a... It's offered on the website now, right? Like, that's a, a thing when you click. It's like zipper hood color. 1:04:48 And I used to always get that question, like, I don't know what they're, what are they talking about- What they're talking about... zipper hood? Yeah. So yeah, we call it zipper hood, zipper garage. 1:04:57 Some people- Garage... there's a bunch of different names out there for it. 1:05:00 But yeah, just that little piece of fabric that that zipper slider just goes home to every time you, you close your pack, keeps the water out of that little spot of zipper that's not quite closed and, um, that's the perfect spot. 1:05:13 You know, a lot of people just want a little pop of color. Yeah. And we'll just- That's the number one thing I look at when I look at custom Sedero bags now. Yep. 1:05:21 'Cause it, if you look, if you know to look for it, you see it on every bag. Pretty much. Yeah, some people, uh, we don't give them the option. 1:05:28 They'll kind of give us like a general whatever and I'm like, "Nah, you, you, you do want this." [laughs] Yeah. We've never had a complaint. That- We've never had a complaint... that spot is where you want it. Yep. 1:05:38 Um, let's go through, uh, the, the Sedero bag kind of basic lineup. You know, we've talked- Sure... about Alger and Drummond pretty extensively. Frame bags, of course, in all shapes and sizes. Half- Yep... 1:05:54 frame bags- Yep... um, which I kind of just call Tangle style bags. Yep. It seems to be the term everyone knows. Mm-hmm. 1:06:03 Um, but talk about a bag I just picked up from you guys, uh, which is a bag that is becoming more, uh, widely accepted, but not the same take. Uh, it's the Hipster- Mm-hmm... 1:06:18 um, which I have to feel like has something to do with Carl. Uh- [laughs] No, never mind. No. Nah, it's what it is. Could, could. Um, but it's not only a... It's a basic fanny pack, not as, uh- Yeah... grandiose as... 1:06:32 I have an old Van Negra, uh, Royale, and it's got all- Mm-hmm... kinds of adjustments and this and that. But it's a fanny pack- Mm-hmm... that doubles as a handlebar bag. That's right, yeah. 1:06:41 And it's a really cool bag, um, that also the, speaking of Todd, the 906 Adventure Team had kind of a, a talk about the connection there and- Yeah... 1:06:53 why this bag, you know, how it stands out, 'cause it's probably the newest bag that you're making, right? It is, yeah. Yep. Uh, so yeah, Todd got in touch with us. 1:07:03 They were, you know, their 906 Adventure Team program with their kids program has just exploded over the last- So cool... few years, and it's so cool. 1:07:11 Um, we've gotten to be involved with some of that along the way and, uh, so he was like, "We need a pack... that kids can put their essentials in that fits on a kid's bike. 1:07:21 'Cause, like, a lot of handlebar packs are a little too big, you know, on those little handlebars. So, uh, that was kind of the genesis of the project, uh, got us thinking. So we came up with that size. 1:07:33 We talked with them about, "What do you want, you know, aside from the size, what do you need?" And, um, one thing that was kind of important, 'cause they have, you know, kids out, uh, 1:07:43 out in the middle of nowhere and stuff, means like it's really good for them to be able to keep their stuff physically on them. And so we put a waist strap on there and, um, kinda figured, 1:07:56 hey, this could actually work pretty well for everybody, not just kids. So, uh, I have one that I use on my full squish a lot, 'cause it's, you know, it's small enough that it doesn't bounce around. 1:08:08 Um, and I can actually fit a tiny water bottle in, in there if I need, if it's a hot day or whatever the heck, food, whatever. Um, so yeah, that was a, that was a fun project to work, work on with them. Um, 1:08:21 and we actually do have another... There's a new pack that's gonna be coming out here in the next, like, week or so. Um, just a variation on a theme though. So it's, uh, the Tank Top LD. 1:08:32 It's a large version of our Tank Top, just like a little slightly taller, longer. Um, so I'll let you kinda fill in the blanks of what LD could stand for, but- I am just thinking about a new bag now, that's for sure. 1:08:49 [laughs] Yeah. Uh, okay. Like, um, kinda like, uh, JPAC does a couple of longer top tube bags- Yeah... ish kind of thing. Yeah, pretty similar. Yeah, pretty similar. 1:09:02 Um- Like the foot long I think he calls it, the Snack Pack or whatever. Yeah. I like the joke. 1:09:05 So our standard, our standard, uh, Tank Top is, like, nine and a quarter inches long, and this one adds about a little more than an inch and a half to that in length- Yeah, I can see... 1:09:17 and then about, and then about half inch in height overall. Um- Really more of a gravel capacity kind of thing- For sure... or touring than more mountain, 'cause you're gonna lose a lot of that standover space. 1:09:28 Yeah, exactly. So yeah, really small frames might be a, a little challenge, but, um, for especially, yeah, gravel bikes with longer top tubes, you got a little more real estate there. Yeah. 1:09:39 Um, on, on- You're on the bike less than- On the bike... off the bike. Yep. Yeah, so that'll be, um, that'll be coming out here. 1:09:45 We're, we're working on that, and we've got a whole bunch of irons in the fire this winter, and we'll, we'll see what's, like, ready to go by springtime, but we've got a bunch of stuff. 1:09:53 Oh, yeah, it's the perfect time of year. Yeah. And, and that's one thing I love, uh, talking to you. Uh, I probably... We go on streaks where I maybe call you once a week. Yeah. And just kind of like, 1:10:07 you know, recently we've been talking about, um, frame bags for my Revel Rascal for some Colorado trail excursions, and we'll watch that Triple Crown. Yeah. And we were talking about, like, portage handles. Yeah. 1:10:19 And one thing that I've loved talking about you, or talking with you over a few years now is, like, when my frame bag got rubbed, you implemented a new material there. Um, it got repaired. 1:10:32 That, that never had an issue ever again, and the... I didn't go lighter on it, you know? Yeah. 1:10:38 Um, we've talked about, uh, you added some length to my personal Alger and Drummonds, uh, to accommodate the Wolf Tooth Valejas, uh, dropper mount, which then in turn kinda altered some production- Yeah... 1:10:52 uh, of the length of that strap, as that Valejas was getting really, you know, picked up by everybody as a dropper solution. Yeah. Yep. Um, I love that, like you said, you have irons in the fire. 1:11:04 There's very few times that I say something to you in regards to bags that is mind-blowing to you. [laughs] I mean, the way I deliver it may blow people's mind, but you know, like- I was gonna say. 1:11:16 [laughs] But since it m- people wouldn't all just be so ramped up about it like I am. [laughs] Sure. 1:11:22 But, you know, like, when I bring up portage handles on a bag for a full suspen- a 140 millimeter travel full suspension bike- Mm-hmm... within five minutes of us talking, we had both considered many things. 1:11:39 Um- Mm-hmm... and, and there's nothing drawn out or dead set. But, you know, I love that you keep an open mind to stock bags. You know, not all the time does it have to be a whole new bag, not all the... 1:11:53 But sometimes it might need to be a whole new bag, you know? Yep. Mm-hmm. Um, how often is Adam just crazy versus how much merit is there to- [laughs]... certain things, you know? Yeah. Yeah. 1:12:04 Um, I love to see that, and I think that's why I've continued to order Sanero bags, because for me personally, I, I... We s- share a similar climate-ish, you know- Yeah... 1:12:15 and stuff like that, so the, the mentality falls in, and I like the people. Uh, but it's like when I need it to kind of update-ish with my bikes- Yeah... it seems like we've together figured out a way. 1:12:31 And some of that's a luxury that I get to call you like that, you know? Um- [laughs] But you know what I'm saying? Yeah. I feel like that mentality is very prevalent of like- Yeah... oh, 1:12:42 that is gonna be a thing in the industry. Yeah. Somebody send me one, [laughs] you know, so that we can see how to make this work, because, like- Yeah... 1:12:51 my Alger on a Valejas, I have to run it a little low 'cause I have a long drop on that bike, but- Mm-hmm... it's a pretty good size dropper bag. Yeah. You know? That dropper can still, uh, heft that thing back up. 1:13:04 Bounce up, sits on the Valejas nice. You know, if I was running a 150 instead of a 170, I'd run my drop, my Valejas all the way to the top and would never bag drop. Yeah. Yeah. So it's, it's cool that, uh... 1:13:18 That's what I like about it, is they've always seen, besides fitment from frame to frame-You know, there's always been this, like, progression of my bags too, and that's why I'm so glad that I have so many of them still. 1:13:30 Yeah, I think, I mean, that's what makes it, makes it fun for us is, you know, the relationships that you build in the industry, and, um, just with riders, you know? 1:13:41 I think for me it's been super fun 'cause, I mean, my, my job is pretty much talking to, talking to people who are into riding bikes, you know? 1:13:50 And so yeah, we get to hear a lot of cool stories, and I'm always interested to hear how something failed or something worked, um, or, you know, your crazy ideas that you constantly call me about once a week. 1:14:05 Um, I mean- They work... you gotta, you gotta [laughs] you gotta, you gotta throw some mud at the wall sometimes and see what works. And, um, so yeah, there's that process. 1:14:16 And bikepacking is still, you know, in kind of its infancy a little bit. You know, it's starting- In the United States, for sure... in the US especially, yeah. Yeah. 1:14:25 It's starting to mature a little bit as an industry, but it's kinda like what the outdoor industry was back in, like, the '70s and early '80s, you know? 1:14:35 Where there was a bunch of, you know, just people making stuff out of their garage and trying stuff. And there's like- I'm liking it to the fat bike scene in, like, 2010, 2011. Yeah. Yep. Yeah. 1:14:45 Everybody was just trying things, and we got so big. Yep. And then there has to be some consolidation- For sure... based on track record of successes, you know? Yeah. 1:14:56 Certain technologies just don't really pan out, and people that adopted them, you know, it just didn't work out. Yep. So there has to be this explosion and then consignment, I guess, you know? 1:15:07 Or, like, getting a little more concise. Yep. But, uh, that, that's, uh, it's interesting. That's my, always my thing is, like, fat bikes around that time. Everyone was ghetto tube-lessing stuff. 1:15:19 [laughs] Everyone was doing, you know, all these things. Mm-hmm. Everyone was making bags. Like, DIY from- Yeah... garage to major manufacturers. Bondraiger, you know? Yep. Mm-hmm. 1:15:30 I think the perfect storm of why I have enjoyed dealing with Saddero, uh, has been, uh, your size, and y- you know, you're just big enough as a company- Yeah... to where you can make changes. Mm-hmm. 1:15:48 Uh, or, you know, but you're not too big that, you know, like some places just at their size you couldn't, I couldn't call you with- Yeah... certain ideas. 1:15:58 Because I understand that in the process it's not, there's no time and space, right? Yeah. Right. 1:16:03 Um, and I like that about kind of that middle, uh, size, I guess you would say, regardless of popularity, that just allows for some flexibility. For sure. Yeah. 1:16:15 Stay a little nimble and, yeah, there are definitely things that if we were bigger, um, or smaller that we couldn't pull off. Um, we just would- Right. Both sides of the spectrum, right? Both, both ends of that, yeah. 1:16:26 For sure. Yeah. I think, I think that's what I really like. You know, you call Saddero, you get a familiar name, familiar person, you know. 1:16:34 Even as frequently as I call, there's only so many people there and, and- [laughs]... you know, you're starting to, you're building those relationships, right? Yeah. Yeah. 1:16:42 Um, speaking of relationships, Carl, this has nothing to do with relationships, but are you ready for the lightning round? Oh. Boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. We'll find out. 1:16:53 I don't still to this day know why I feel compelled to shoot guns and- [laughs]... make a noise of guns for the lightning round. [laughs] But I really like doing it. I will be honest. Carl, 1:17:06 you have listened to my show, so you're familiar with the lightning round. I am, yeah. About four questions- Yep... off the cuff. Quick, quick-witted responses. [laughs] It's pretty stressful. I don't know. 1:17:18 I hope you survive. Quick-witted, we'll see. Uh, [laughs] I don't know. Ah, whatever. You look great. No one will get to see that, though. Well, they can't see me. They can't see that. 1:17:26 [laughs] I know, but I can and it's a pleasure. Um, anyways, lightning round. [laughs] I don't have your beard, though. I don't have your beard. [laughs] Uh, all right, Carl. If, uh, you had no bags 1:17:37 and you were a new cyclist, just wanted to do stuff, what's the first bag style, you don't even have to say a specific model, but, like, first bag style that you would get for just general use? 1:17:51 Um, the Bar Hopper pack, handlebar pack. Like a handlebar small bag. Yep. Fits a burrito pretty nicely. Yep. Yep. Um, I like that too. Yeah. It goes from- You think that the Bar Hopper and the Hipster overlap? 1:18:07 A little bit. Um, but the Bar Hopper on, in, on most bikes, uh, can hold as much as a half frame pack would on that same frame. So- Insane. Yeah. So one- More than one burrito. Yeah. 1:18:20 You can fit like, like three in there. Oh, that's a good day, right? Yeah. [laughs] So yeah. There, there's my answer. I, I love the handlebar packs 'cause you can go bike to bike easily. 1:18:31 And if you have one- I'm becoming more and more happy with them... without having to do a custom frame pack, yeah. Yep. Um, being a, a retro grouch of sorts- [laughs]... 1:18:41 I kinda quote that 'cause you were labeled as that on the website for a while. [laughs] What's the newest piece of bike tech that you've- Ooh... obtained? [laughs] It's not AXS, folks. Oh. Oh, man. The newest piece? 1:18:56 Uh, it's probably the grip damper I just put in my 2014 Fox, uh- Oh... 32, um... Grip damper? Yeah. Oh, that's pretty turkey, Carl. It's grip. That's only been around for, like, 10 years, right? 1:19:10 Yeah, that's pretty turkey. [laughs] There's that. Uh, that's probably the newest piece I have that I own. I feel like that's a- Maybe... perfect answer from you. Yeah. 1:19:22 Um-Um, what is, if you have one, a dream place that you have to take your bike and your Sedero bags and go adventure? Ooh, that's a good question. Um, hmm. 1:19:39 I think there's a few different places I wanna go. Uh, one, I wanna go up to, like, Banff or something. Like, I just wanna go, you know, big mountains. Yeah. Um, go see some of that, go ride some of that stuff. Um, 1:19:56 the other thing that I've been thinking about is, that I wanna do is a lot closer to home. We have so much riding around us, and there's a lot, uh, up on the border that I wanna explore in the wintertime. 1:20:10 And, you know, it's a little tricky. We have the Boundary Waters Canoe Area Wilderness up there, and, uh, they don't allow bicycles within the wilderness. 1:20:19 But there's a lot of area that's kinda squeaks in between what's designated up there that's national forest and whatnot, um, some routes along the border, so I'd love to go explore some of that that's, like, not really a route per se that's, you know- Not yet... 1:20:33 not established, not yet. Um- Yeah, right. Needs some research done. Yeah. Maybe stuff I've explored while I was guiding up there, you know, on foot or canoe and whatever. 1:20:42 But to go experience it in the wintertime when conditions are right to ride a fat bike would be, would be pretty perfect. Pretty interesting. Uh, what is your favorite color combination? Let's do two or three at most. 1:20:57 We can't say- Ooh... seven colors. Okay. Uh, to put on, let's just follow Sedero. A black framed bike. Uh-huh. Sedero frame bag, two to three colors. What do you, what do you put on it? All right. Um, peacock. 1:21:12 Which is like a teal. Which is like our, our teal, yeah. Uh, iris, which is our purple. Beautiful. Uh, and then, I mean, this is just what, this is what my frame pack is. 1:21:23 Bordeaux is the other one, like the maroon color, kinda- Ooh... that, like, wine. So those, yeah, those three together. I didn't see it going towards bordeaux. I know. I know. But it's- I like you, Carl. Carl. Yeah. 1:21:36 That's four questions. Oh. Lightning round. Heck yeah. That was easy peasy. Yeah, what the heck? Thought you were gonna ask me some, like, deep, dark secrets, man. No, I try not to ask too many dark secrets. 1:21:48 I used to ask people, like, what their favorite snacks were- Mm... for things. Mm-hmm. That was, like, a constant. And people aren't into snacks like I am. What? I don't know. What? Weirdness. Snacks are delicious. 1:22:02 Dude, what are you- Carl... what are you, what are you cooking tonight? This, I- What am I cooking tonight? Uh, n- well, I'll be cooking everything. I'm working tonight. That's what I figured. 1:22:09 [laughs] But I just cooked some really nice stuffed bolognese shells with some Fontina, and then I baked them, and then- Oh, heck yeah... a bunch of other good stuff. 1:22:20 Uh, Carl, I wanna say thank you for coming on the show and for tolerating me on a weekly basis. [laughs] Um, I think that, 1:22:28 you know, I had a luxury of getting in with Josh and getting to you, but I feel like one thing that I've done over years, you know, five years of helping, um, just personally promote this brand because I like it, uh, I, you know, I always appreciate when I tell a dealer, like, "You know, uh, you should check out a Sedero bag," um, that I know that, that Sedero or you or Dan, whoever they're- Mm-hmm... 1:22:56 getting called to, uh, is really going to take care of that dealer the way I like. I know that if, uh, my roommate Zach Lowe just had a bag shipped from Sedero to Evergreen, Colorado. He was my- Yeah... 1:23:08 roommate in college and the best man in our wedding. Um, and I'd been... You know, he was like, "Adam, what bags?" And I said, "Well, here's why these work the best for me. Here's what to expect when you call them." 1:23:22 Yeah. And his response after the bags came was, you know, "It was exactly what you said it would be. They ta- they told me about stuff, they answered my questions, the bags fit perfect. 1:23:32 They look exactly how I thought they would look." Sweet. You know, boom, boom, boom. And that's not necessarily exclusive to Sedero. No. But for me it's a reliable thing to know with Sedero. 1:23:45 And as I'm more and more on the outskirts of the bike industry- Mm-hmm... and just getting, like, friend recommendations, I don't have to support a brand in the shop. Yeah. Yeah. I know that if a, a friend, you know... 1:23:56 Other brands do it too, but it's easy for me to say, "Call Carl. Tell him what you want. If he seems to like you, don't tell him you know me." [laughs] You know? Yeah. Um, Carl, where can people find out about, 1:24:11 uh, maybe more Sedero, you if you'd like. Um, but- Sure... as far as, like, website, social media, um, lead time currently on bags I think is interesting to, to let- Yeah... people know here. Yeah. 1:24:24 Yeah, so our website is just sedero.com. S-E-D-E-R-O- Yep....com Cedar Arrow. Yeah. Cedar Arrow. Without the, you know, middle- Exactly. Yeah, so that's, that's the site. Everything is there. 1:24:38 Um, if it's in stock on the site, it ships the next business day. Um, custom packs right now are, are standard three to four weeks, and that should be consistent going forward. 1:24:49 Um, and, uh, we had a brief period where, like, pandemic stuff, whatever, it was a little longer, but we're, we're right back to, to where we wanna be with that, so three to four weeks. 1:25:01 Um, our Instagram is probably our most, like, updated, you know, spot to find out about, like, the Tanktop LD that's gonna be coming out. Mm-hmm. Um, all our shenanigans. Um, Slender James Classic Enduro race next year. 1:25:16 Um, did our first annual race, uh, with that this past fall, stuff like that. I mean, basically all our-If you wanna see the shenanigans side of Sedero, uh- Yeah. You- Check out the Instagram... 1:25:26 you got a new downhill bike, Carl. You gonna be getting mad. Oh, yeah. Wide- the Wide Open Dolphin, and I haven't even ridden it yet, man. Full send. Woo. Just looking at it. 1:25:36 Yeah, Wide Open Dolphin is just, it's sitting there waiting. So- Gee... um, yeah, I don't know. I've never had a, a lift pass before. I, I got one this year. I don't know if that was a mistake. We'll find out, man. 1:25:47 No, it's a great idea. I'm coming out. [laughs] Yes, please. We'll get full face helmets and deal with it. Yep. Yep. I'm gonna need- And shin guards too... dude, full bubble wrap for me. Yeah. [laughs] Sweet. Uh, 1:25:59 you know, um, I'm Adam Blake. This is Fat-Bike.com. If you're listening, you probably know that. If you don't know, you now know. 1:26:11 It's a place, you know, I've had the luxury with Gomez of talking fat bikes, and frame bags and bags are very akin to fat bikes in my world. 1:26:19 But they're also very akin to mountain biking, gravel riding, other passions that I have, and I've had a luxury to be... [laughs] Oh, you got a dog on your lap? [laughs] Yeah, he's good. 1:26:30 [laughs] I got- Got my 100 pound dog... see you, and just be like, "Hey, buddy." [laughs] Uh, you know, I've... 1:26:37 It's nice to be able to talk about things that are definitely related to the website, and a resource on the website, but then we're providing other things to consider, you know? Mm. Uh, that's a big deal for me. Yeah. 1:26:48 Um, Carl, Sedero, tell Dan I said hi. I will. Always appreciate it. I'll keep calling. You keep making bags. And if you're a consumer looking for bags and your shop doesn't carry Sedero, you don't have to just call Carl. 1:27:05 Yeah. It's great to call Carl. Carl is the man. Uh, other people at Sedero will do a great job. Devin will do a great job. Uh, you know, all these people will do great jobs taking care of you, 1:27:19 but your shop can take care of you too. Yeah. 1:27:21 And there's a reason they want to build with Sedero, so that when you as the consumer have more questions about fit, you can go talk to somebody in person, get that fire stoked, get that- Yep... value built. 1:27:35 Um, know that you can see and touch things then, and make more educated decisions. I have not yet talked to a shop that opened Sedero that didn't succeed with Sedero. Yeah. 1:27:45 Uh, there's enough options that I feel like it's not the perfect end all be all in every case. Mm-hmm. But for general and niche bag fulfillment, Sedero has never steered me wrong. 1:27:58 Uh, and I think you're a big part of that, Carl, personally and professionally at times, and Dan as well. So again, I just wanna thank you. Everybody else- Thanks, Adam... yeah, Carl, my pleasure. It's great. 1:28:09 Everybody else, keep the rubber on the snow now- Yeah. [laughs]... but on the road too. [laughs] And have an awesome day. Uh, we'll check back with more new podcast in the next year. Whoa. Whoa. [laughs] Thanks, Carl. 1:28:25 Thanks, man. Talk to you later. Yeah.
