Transcript 0:01 It's the Danger Nome Podcast for Monday, March twenty-fifth, two thousand and nineteen. 0:07 [rock music] Welcome to the Danger Nome Podcast. 0:24 Today's show was recorded at the Trek World Headquarters. During the interview, I asked two Trek executives questions that came from you folks out there in listener land. 0:35 We asked you to post questions on our Instagram and Facebook page, and, uh, some of them I could actually ask. Uh, some of them were ridiculous, ridiculous old crap that you people should put in the rearview mirror. 0:54 But I'm not here to be your, uh, psychotherapist. I'm here to, uh, put something in your ear hole that might actually make some sense in the fat or plus bike world. 1:07 So, uh, I must have been pretty nervous for this, uh, for this interview because I talk way too much. 1:14 So let me apologize up front for my ramblings, but if you wanna hear what the largest bike company in the world has to say on the subject of fat bikes, wheel size, and maybe even nomes, stay tuned. 1:27 Before we get to that, I thought I'd share some information about an event that we're hosting at the end of April called the Rockin' Beach Funduro. 1:36 The event is my answer to some gripes that I've heard about big-time serious fat bikes. [laughs] Sorry, sorry about... Uh, serious fat bike races. So, 1:47 you know those-- the races with ten drones over the starting line, and then it has a corporate name in front of the name of the race, and, uh, the plastic races, I like to call them. 2:00 So this is, instead of just complaining about it, uh, I thought I'd run a race that was just for fun and not really a race, just an event for a lot of other people. 2:13 I hear a lot of people say that racing is ruining cycling, and I don't think that's true at all. 2:18 I know a lot of people that are thriving in the current race situations, and there are some races out there that are not plastic, that are grassroots and great. 2:28 Um, but for every cyclist out there that racing is serving very well, there are ten other cyclists that have different ideas and preferences. 2:38 Again, so just instead of complaining about it, I decided to create a fun event that might serve as part of the solution for those ten other racers. Probably only three of them. 2:47 The other six, you know, won't ever be happy. Uh, we're hosting an event for everyone that likes bikes, beer, barbecue, beaches, uh, with a side order of live music. 2:59 We're partnering with three local bike shops and a bunch of other companies, and we're trying to get demo bikes from fat bike companies so that people that have never ridden a fatty can give it a try. 3:09 I've contacted Pat Smage about doing a Gnome Food Trials demo, uh, between the two live rock and roll bands that we have booked. So mark your calendars for April twenty-eighth. It's the Rockin' Beach Funduro. 3:23 It's in Port Washington, Wisconsin, and there will be a link in the show notes with almost none of the details because we don't really have that many details right now. 3:33 But there'll be more to come on the, uh, detail of the details. So we have even more good news about fun bike events, but we'll share those with you another time. 3:44 So next up, we're gonna get into our interview with Travis and Chris from Trek. [upbeat music] Please welcome to the show Travis Ott. He is the mountain bike marketing manager for Trek. 3:56 And Chris Drews, he is the mountain and fat bike product manager for Trek. Hey, guys. Thanks for having us. Yeah, great to have, have you here. 4:05 Here we are in the, uh, the Alpe d'Huez conference room here at Trek World Headquarters on a snowy day. Mm-hmm. 4:11 And, uh, at Travis's, uh, suggestion, we got some questions from our readers, and, uh, Paul Barrett from the UK asks, "Twenty-seven point five fat, you know, why do we need twenty-seven point five fat?" 4:26 He seems to be happy with his twenty-six inch. Yeah, that was, um, kinda what we were thinking back, uh, you know, in two thousand thirteen. 4:36 But, uh, fast-forward to twenty fourteen, and we were looking at, uh, developing our second fat bike in the mountain bike product line, and we took a close look at what we were doing with, uh, twenty-nine plus development at the time and twenty-niner development that we'd had previous to that and found that frankly, there were a lot of opportunities with, you know, tire dynamics and wheel dynamics that could be transferred or potentially, uh, benefit, uh, fat bikes. 5:03 And, uh, it was too big to ignore, frankly. 5:07 And so as we delved into development on our two thousand sixteen Farley, uh, we took a look at, uh, not only the wheels and tires, but kinda how they work together underneath the rider. 5:19 So it's-- You can't just look at, uh, you know, one element. You have to look at everything as a, as a system, right? Because you have to pedal these bikes. Mm-hmm. There's not an engine in them. So, 5:30 you know, from there, uh, you know, fast-forward to today, we've seen multiple, uh, sizes of twenty-seven five tires, and now you see, uh, multiple manufacturers for tires and wheels, um, both at the high end. 5:44 You have Head, you know, you have a slew of Bontrager products, Forty-Five North. The, you know, the product list goes on and on, and it's, uh, it's really developed into kind of its own, uh, its, its own beast. 5:55 Uh, and people are really understanding that performance gains are found on both the race side of things and kinda the performance end, but also in the adventure side, uh, you know, when you're getting into thoseUh, situations where there's deeper snow, uh, tracks are maybe less groomed- Mm-hmm...or a little bit more on, uh, irregular, so. 6:17 And to add to that too is we, in the development, we also wanted to keep it twenty-six as an option too. Mm-hmm. 6:25 So we designed the bike to be both twenty-seven five and twenty-six, and that really worked out well because we saw we were attracting different customers as well too, and kind of tailored the lineup to that as well. 6:37 Right. 6:37 I think it was about a couple years ago that we transitioned, uh, the entire line to twenty-seven five, and that was really because we had seen that, uh, twenty-seven five was widely adopted throughout the industry and the world. 6:49 Right. Um, but prior to that, as Travis indicated, you know, we offered twenty-six by four seven setups as well as twenty-seven five by three eight and four five, um, as options, so. Right on. 7:00 And that's one of the things Will Ross is, uh, racing, uh, for the Trek Store of Anchorage now, and Will Ross is kind of well-known in the fat bike world. Uh, he won the Fat Bike Birke and, uh, several other big races. 7:17 He's using both twenty-six and twenty-seven point five rims, and he, he says in an article that we published on the site that twenty-six inch he would use on a hillier course, a course with more cornering, with more accelerating and decelerating, and then he would go for the taller rim on a flatter course where just flat out speed, you know, a, a race like Arrowhead 135 where it's, uh, where it's a snowmobile trail, uh, that isn't really necessarily that well-groomed, but it's just pour the power down for 16 hours straight. 7:55 Um, do you agree with that kind of assessment, or do you have additional areas where you feel that twenty-seven point five is an advantage? Yeah, I mean, generally speaking, I'd, I'd agree with, um, you know, his setup. 8:08 Um, I think it is very regionally based though. You know, what we find from our, our users globally is that, uh, conditions are not only, uh, differentiated on a, you know, on a regional scale, but they're day to day. 8:23 So what we might be optimal for one day is completely not optimal for the next day. 8:29 And, uh, so those users that are specializing in, say, you know, race are able to, you know, really refine their equipment and have a quiver of tires and wheels to optimize for, you know, race day. 8:43 And you see that up at, you know, major races in Marquette, for example. 8:46 The Polar Roll is a very good example of, you know, you guys-- you have guys switching their equipment right up until the start, ch- checking tire pressures, changing this, changing that, affecting their geometry. 8:56 You know, on, on the Trek Farleys, you can adjust the geometry of the wheel base, um, with the triangle hole dropout. 9:01 So you have people adjusting, uh, a lot of different, uh, elements of the bike to get, you know, maybe more front end traction, more cornering, you know, more flotation, things like that. 9:11 So yeah, people are definitely, uh, able and willing to explore at their own, uh, you know, for their own- For their own niche use, right? Yeah. Exactly. 9:23 That's- 'Cause we- That's something I love about the fat bike market too is just how much people adapt their bikes and how much it can change and all the different setups that you see there. 9:33 There is very much a roll your own type mentality in this- Absolutely...segment. 9:38 You know, there's a, there's a sect of fat bikers in Iowa that do this race Triple D, and they aero bar their, their fat bikes because the last 30 miles is just a straight shot and, you know, they, 9:53 they take advantage of every little bit that they can to get there faster. So one of the things that, uh, that I think would be interesting to talk about is tire pressures and tire setup. 10:06 So can you give us an idea about that on, on- Yeah, I mean, I, I think that, uh, you know, I'm speaking very broadly. 10:15 I think there's a lot of opportunity for, you know, all your listeners and even those that aren't listening, um, to take some time and, um, play around a little bit and figure out what works best with their trail conditions. 10:29 You know, I'm gonna make some, you know, statements here, but they're broadly based. 10:36 So what I'm saying may not work in all different applications, but generally speaking, you have to take into account, um, what the temperature is-- differential is inside versus outside. That's kinda basic. 10:47 Um, but it makes a drastic difference if you're not accounting for that. And what I mean by that is, 10:54 you know, if you're setting your bike up inside at 70 degrees and it's 20 degrees outside, you're gonna have a 50-degree temperature drop, and simple physics would tell you that the, you know, air pressure's gonna change based on that. 11:06 Seven PSI is gonna go to four or it's gonna go to a number lower. Right. 11:10 And, um, you know, just riding with friends and colleagues around here, there's pretty clear evidence that, uh, you know, it's more of an art rather than a science as well, even though there is some science behind it. 11:22 And, uh, you know, even if you have a temperature drop, consistent temperature drop of 50 PS... 11:27 or sorry, 50 degrees, um, depending on the snow conditions, you may have to run a PSI, uh, difference just to be able to ride or roll, um, through varied terrain or have the appropriate traction. 11:38 So- And that's kind of the, the, the litmus test is if you're walking, you probably shouldn't t-take-- If your front wheel's washing out or you're walking things that other people are riding, you know, drop your pressure. 11:51 Uh, and I've always found that it's a 1001 per PSI, at least if you don't have a gauge with you, you can kinda use that. [chuckles] Right. 11:59 If you set up at 10, then if youTake out 1001, 1002, 1003 in the normal spacing, then you're gonna get, you're gonna get down to near seven. 12:09 J- I mean, generally, if you're not running on firm conditions, you wanna be able to see a wrinkle- Mm-hmm... 12:13 in your rear tire when you're weighted on your rear tire, and then you generally wanna have a wrinkle under, uh, compression of your front tire. 12:21 Obviously, your weight balance on your bike is biased to the rear, you know, say a 70/30. So typically, I run a PSI, um, less in my front tire as a result, and that yields fairly good results around here, so. Cool. 12:35 But there's obviously other variables there with, uh, tire compounds, um, being different, you know, with TPI differences, how much rubber is in the tire, um, and- And the, and the volume of the tire, right? 12:46 The size of the tire, right? [laughs] S- size of the rider. The... And the real thing is we ride on such a X factor of the substrate. Snow is 12:58 such a variable, and, uh, you could take the same snowfall and hit it when it's fresh, and then hit it the day after, and it might be completely different, and it could be crust by then. So yeah, that's, that's... 13:10 And that's, I think that's what's spurring a lot of the debate that we have over hysteresis and all the math that's involved. 13:18 I mean, we all kind of accept that this taller wheel, easier propulsion idea is a mathematical certainty. But then when you add in all those other variables, it becomes a quandary as to what's best, right? 13:34 Yeah, I mean, you know, if you go back to, uh, 2014 when we were doing some of the 27.5 development, um, Travis Brown was actually, uh, quite instrumental in, uh, in some of this discussion, and he was actually reading some tractor science books. 13:50 Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And your, you know, your listeners can, uh, can look these up, but, you know, there's a lot of evidence that suggests that, you know, diameter versus width, um, 14:01 as a means to improve flotation, um, it strongly suggests that there's at least equals the levels of flotation improvement by adding diameter, um, as adding cross-section. 14:10 But that energy efficiency on soft terrain improves by adding diameter. So, um, that's kind of the basis for a lot of our, 14:20 um, exploring that, and, uh, you know, I, I would say that generally speaking anecdotally, I've seen that users with similar width tires but different diameters, the larger diameter always wins out- Mm... 14:38 especially in loose terrain. And, uh, one of the Polar Roll fat bike races that I did up in Marquette a couple years ago- Mm-hmm... was a prime example of that. I was actually, um, 14:50 running 26 by 4-7 setup just because that's the equipment I had at the time, and, uh, it was interesting to see how riders around me with similar skill level were just blowing right past me with their 27-5 by 4-5 setups. 15:03 Mm. Yeah. The Polar Roll was just last weekend, and it was another just total gut check of six hours, the w- the winner. Yeah, I think the year I did it, it was five hours. 15:13 Um, the winner was th- 3:45 or something like that. Yeah. But, uh, another challenging, very warm, warm race. Right. Where everything just turns to mashed potatoes. Mm-hmm. 15:23 Well, let's take another, uh, l- uh, reader question. Andy Amstutz from Manistee, Michigan, he said, "You came out with the 27.5 by 4 on a fat bike, and then it exploded. 15:33 How do you feel when you see an innovation that you started spread across the industry? Do you guys high-five?" You know, I think we- Yes. [laughs] It... Yes, so much in that, yeah, you are taking a risk initially. 15:47 We were very confident- Mm-hmm... going into it, but we also came out with a product lineup that was about half 26 by, uh, 4-8, and then 27.5 by 4. So we were... 15:59 You know, we had both in the mix, but to see it adopted so strongly is great. It is very gratifying. Yeah. You know what? 16:08 I think one thing that needs to be said is that Trek doesn't create new standards just to create new standards, and I think sometimes people think that there's a, you know, an agenda behind a new standard. 16:19 Well- Well- The diabolical- [laughs]... bell ringing in the back room. But the... You know, I think- I would even sl- question the word standard there. We're providing options, right? Right. Because 26, you could... 16:30 The bikes would still work with 26. 27.5 is an option as well. It's true. Very true. And you can see d- different people gravitated towards different options. The racers went to 27.5. Right. 16:41 More of the adventure explorers just out for a rip on the local trails, they were going to 26 by a wider tire. Yeah. 16:48 It is such a déjà vu moment from 26 to 29, that whole discussion, uh, which resolved itself in the field. You know, it just became- It did... super apparent that [laughs] 29ers- Yep... roll over things better. So yeah. 17:06 Yeah, finally Europe has, uh, come around, and it looks like 29 is kinda the thing going forward, at least for a lot of, lot of markets. 17:14 But getting back to that, I think, you know, when we see something that technologically provides an advantage, and we can actually experience it- Mm-hmm... in multiple, uh, disciplines, um, um, 17:26 it's sometimes hard, and it's hard to ignore it. We generally think that if it ex- proves the experience for someone on the bike, we're gonna go for it. 17:34 Um, as long as it's not too much of a disruptor, we- we're not gonna, 17:38 you know, put all the work in and then just say, "Oh, nope, can't, can't launch that new thing because it's, it's too revolutionary or too different," you know? Right. 17:46 If it's gonna provide a better experience to the end user, it's gonna make mountain biking better for everyone, yes- Yes... it's, it's worth exploring. Yep. Yep. Cool. Uh, these next two questions kinda are the same. 17:59 Uh, uh, I'm gonna use Julio's question. He's from Crown Point, Indiana. "How wide will fat go? Is 4.8 to 5 inches the limit, or is, is there a need for a wider-Or even taller. 18:15 We can add both of those thing in there because we're at a 31-inch tall tire now with the fattest B-fat, 27.5 fat. Right. 18:23 Um, so- You know, I think as you look at, um, a fat bike, you gotta take into account the drivetrain, and you have to pedal these things, as I said before, and there's actually kind of a limit to what people wanna pedal in terms of Q factor, right? 18:38 So Q factor refers to where your pedal placement is in space. Right, the whole human ergonomic issue. [laughs] Right. And so I think the industry has kind of found that, that 190, 197, uh, rear OLD is kind of 18:55 a really happy medium of you have decent Q factor, you have decent tire size options, and, uh, you know, that does kinda limit tire width- Mm-hmm... as, uh, as a function of growing that. 19:07 You know, there are some, uh, tires, we actually have brought some in, um, by a competitor brand, um, and at 505, I guess, is the, the exact measurement in width. You know, we've 19:20 ridden these for several years, and I'd say they're very good at what they do in really loose, you know, snow conditions, but they are definitely slow. 19:30 [laughs] And so you start to see kind of, you know, how those, how width is good, but it's slow. Right. And weight also comes along with that bigger tire. 19:42 So, uh, it, it seems like that 2,000 gram tire is the one that is just too painful to push. Yeah, I mean, I don't think they're-- I mean, we've had these s- that wheel set sitting around, and no one 19:56 has opted to ride it- [laughs] Right... for the sheer fact- We did a test with, with that tire, and we determined that the advantage of that tire is in eight inches or more of fresh snow. [laughs] So how often 20:11 do you ride in fresh, ungroomed snow, period? Uh- A bunch of it, too. That's a, that's a big snow day. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. 20:20 Uh- So, I mean, to answer the question directly, you know, additional diameter we feel can improve the efficiency, um, without further compromising drivetrain. 20:28 You know, right now the chain is getting really close to the tire with the current setups that, you know, the industry is running. Mm-hmm. 20:35 So, um, we don't really anticipate drivetrains getting any wider because just of the Q factor acceptance that we talked about. 20:42 And, um, so I would say that, that, uh, diameter has more opportunity for, uh, exploration in the future. All right, and here comes from my friend Ron Chuy of Rochester, Minnesota: "Have fat bikes jumped the shark?" 20:58 [laughs] Are they done? Are they over? 21:01 You know, a lot of-- There were a lot of naysayers, maybe Travis you should answer this question, but there was, you know, a lot of, uh, "Ah, fat bikes are dead" couple years ago, but I'll tell you, we talk to retailers all over the globe, and that's not what they're saying. 21:14 No. Fat bikes have not jumped the shark. I think they've, they've maybe settled into a very good spot right now where there's-- we're still selling a ton of fat bikes. It's a very important part of our business. 21:31 And, uh, it's something that y- maybe didn't have the huge growth that it initially had when fat bikes were just-- Everybody was selling fat bikes- Mm-hmm... 21:43 and it was just the success story of the cycling industry, and right now everyone's talking about electric bikes, and that's the- Mm-hmm... success story for cycling right now. 21:53 But fat bikes are actually, they do a very good business for us, and it's something that keeps improving in sort of degrees for us every year, too. 22:02 And I know you're a global company, but you are almost dead center- [laughs]... in one of the biggest fat bike hotspots in America, at least. Right. 22:11 I mean, the opportunities for t- for trail riding and getting feedback from users is awesome here. Um, you know, the other thing I would point out is it's still getting new users out on bikes that either- Right... 22:23 didn't have a bike before or would be sitting on the couch otherwise, and so we love hearing those stories about people getting out riding that wouldn't otherwise. Um, so that's, that's a huge thing. 22:33 I think, uh, the other opportunity is, you know, Europe tested the waters with fat bikes a couple years ago, and in most places they didn't find it was something that was sustainable. 22:44 They didn't have the infrastructure and n- nor interest in most markets. There are pockets of Europe that are doing really well with fat bikes- And the UK... and I think those, um, will continue to grow, and who knows? 22:56 In five years we could be seeing that start to re-catch on in other, other European markets. Uh, but, 23:03 you know, the markets that have historically done well, um, that have snow on the ground consistently, Michigan, Wisconsin, Vermont, you know, the Rockies, Alaska, those markets are all thriving. Oh, yeah. 23:17 UK, we have a question from Kevin Hodgson in the UK. Uh, I have tons of friends in the UK that, that ride. Uh, and we had several questions about this is people wonder why no cargo mounts on the fork. Very good question. 23:35 You know, I think, uh, there are, are a couple bicycle manufacturers that do a really good job of providing users multiple mounting points. Mm-hmm. You know, Trek came at it from a slightly different angle. 23:47 We w- came out fat bikes with a performance-oriented mindset, and, uh, you know, kinda no compromises. Obviously, when you add mounts, you add weight and complexity and things like that. 23:58 Um, we were kinda coming at it from, as I said, the more performance-oriented thing. 24:02 Um, we do find that a lot of z- a lot of users are, um, trying to fashion their own bags and bottles and racks to, and specifically fenders, to their bikes. 24:12 You know, the, the hottest thing right now that I get most feedback on is frame bags.Right. Right You know, people, um... 24:19 And that's mostly from northern climates where if you're not bringing a second pair of gloves or you're not bringing some other things with you, if you're going out- Yeah... for more than an hour ride- Your puffy jacket. 24:29 Yeah... you're, you're dumb, you know. Um- Or your, or your, uh, two ice cold beers. Right. Right. 24:34 So it's a nice place to- You know, m- in, in kinda lower climates where it's, you know, people are, I'd say the lower half of Wisconsin where people are just rip- going out for an hour, rip on their mountain bike- Mm... 24:43 they don't typically need, uh, you know, all these accessories and, and packs, but when you get up in Alaska and other northern climates, Finland, um, they're- And they're-... they're looking for more provisions. 24:54 When, when I read this question I thought, "Well, there are lots of aftermarket accessories that allow you to put bags on your fork legs without the braze ons." Mm-hmm. There's strap-on braze ons. 25:08 Uh, so, you know, there, there's your answer. So, um, one other thing, this is Tony Berger's question from Milwaukee, Wisconsin. Uh, he asks, w- why no steel bikes? 25:21 [laughs] I mean, I've gotten that question probably in every single category of mountain bikes. [laughs] Trek, yeah. Trek, you know- To, to be frank with-... historically is, is like a steel bike company. 25:33 I, if you're an old guy like me, I remember that, right? To be frank with you, I think, um, most users are still cognizant of weight, even on fat bikes. Um- I am. 25:41 [laughs] And, uh, you know, they're looking at shaving grams on their tires, so it's kinda goes, flies in the face of that. 25:50 It's not to say that we'd never do one, um, but it's probably not the top of the list right now for what we do in steel. I think there's a other bikes we'd wanna do in steel first. 25:58 Frankly, it's hard to-- You don't see a whole lot of steel manufacturing done. Um, it's a kind of a dying thing even- Except for on the boutique level. I mean, handmade bikes you see quite a bit of it, but- Yes... 26:11 production-made bikes, uh, you have to search for, for a steel bike. Yeah, especially a quality one. Um- Yeah... you know, there's a- Right... it's hard. There's also, with us it's an opportunity cost. 26:23 If we do something as, like a steel bike, that means we're not doing something else. Maybe we're not exploring the new 27.5- Mm-hmm... the new full suspension opportunity, uh, for whatever it might be. 26:37 So we just, given our resources, we have to make those tough decisions sometimes. What are-- Which opportunity are we gonna go after? Steel road bike might be kinda 26:47 more of a thing than a steel fat bike, to be honest, but that's- Yeah... that's another- A l-... another [laughs] another story... a lugged steel road bike- [laughs]... could probably be, you know, a popular item. 26:58 I don't know. But, um, how about full suspension plus and fat bikes? Uh- Yeah, you know, I just- How do you feel about that market? 27:08 Yeah, I just rode my, um, Farley X the other day actually and was reminded how awesome that bike is for, for what it is, you know. That's a bike I'd love to ride. I mean, uh, the, to try out. 27:21 I mean- Yeah, I mean, when we were developing it, um, it was certainly something that, um, we all felt was meaningful, and that's why we came out with it. Not everyone has access to groomed, manicured trails- Mm... 27:35 uh, like we do have here sometimes, and those b- boot-tracked, snowshoe-ded trails or hand-groomed trails are ripe for, um, a full suspension bike, despite what a lot of people may think. 27:49 You know, there's- The, the trails across the street for sure have definitely a lot of playscape on them- Mm-hmm... built into them that that bike would be awesome. 27:58 At the time, we were also seeing a lot of customers who were using their fat bike as their year-round bike. Right. Okay. 28:04 A lot of customers from Arizona and Florida who their, their fat bikes never touched snow, but they were just riding them year-round. It's their fun bike, their adventure bike. Yeah. 28:13 And for that customer, a full suspension fat bike, too, made a lot of sense. Um, they were riding it like their traditional mountain bike. 28:20 Yeah, you find that, you know, when you talk to retailers and consumers in, say, the Twin Cities as an example, where they see five, six months of snow on the ground, that user, 28:32 you know, would really benefit from a bike that's actually, you know, really good in the wintertime, but also pretty decent in the summertime. 28:39 And they, if they had only one mountain bike, it's a pretty good quiver killer- Right... as we call it. Or one, one bike with two sets of wheels. Uh- Absolutely... you know, I always say, 28:49 I recently just changed from riding a plus bike in the, uh, in the summertime or in the normal mountain bike as my mountain bike to riding my carbon fat bike with a carbon set of 50 millimeter B-plus wheels, uh, with 3.8 fat bike tires. 29:08 I'm kind of a bigger guy. I like a bigger tire. But that bike kinda like... And, and you put a dropper post on that bike, and you've got, you've got a 24-pound ripper, you know. 29:20 And kinda like the asterisk there is, is around here I like to ride a rigid bike. Um, so, you know, it's a 24-pound rigid single track slayer. Yeah. 29:32 I mean, I talked to a gentleman in Park City, and he uses his Farley X as his year-round bike, and it provides a lot of stability. Um, and he was, I wanna he say he was in his late 60s. Yeah. 29:43 And for him it was a, it was a safety thing, and he just liked that security of and confidence of that larger tire. And, you know, the same thing could be said for kind of the plus phenomena. 29:55 You know, people really gravitated towards, um, when I say plus, 2.8 to 3.0- Mm-hmm... uh, segment because it really offered a demonstrable, you know, effect on the trail. 30:06 People noticed right away that they could roll over things, bash right through things without really batting an eye, um, especially get it up, up and over things. Indeed. 30:17 So it seems like the industry is, is taking-The plus 3.0 to 3.25 and downsized it slightly to 2.6 to 2.8. Um, where do, where do you think that gets driven from? 30:34 Is that coming from the tire companies? Is that, is that people out west that are riding, uh, these plus bikes? 30:41 I, I, I just wondered why, why it seemed like over the last year you see less of the full 29 plus bike tires, and you see many, many more of these, the tires that are in between- Yeah... mountain bike and... 30:56 I mean, I think that's just a natural progression. You have, um, 31:01 users in the marketplace that are very curious about these new things that are out there, and curious if it's going to- Want to take those baby steps and get the 2.6 [laughs] to see, uh, if it's- Right. Yeah. 31:12 No one, I think, is, knows the result. They're just out there being curious- Yeah, sure... 31:16 and kind of, um, happy to be the, the first person out there on their local group ride to have tested something and be able to tell their buddies they've ridden something that's awesome or it's not. Yeah. And, uh, 31:29 I haven't, I haven't heard a definitive on those people. 31:32 You know, I follow the forum boards, you know, here and there, and, and I haven't seen a whole bunch of users going, "Oh, that 2.6 is so much better than my 3.0 ever was." 31:42 You know, more u- Oh, it's- More often it's- Th- th... I... We have somebody that, that, that writes me- [laughs]... 31:47 that is just, "You know, you have to have a 35 millimeter rim and nothing bigger than a 2.8 or else you're a moron." [laughs] So, you know, there, there's a guy out there. 31:58 [laughs] But I, I mean, I think it's as much of a size thing as it is, uh, construction, tire construction and tire, um, tread design. 32:07 You can have an awesome 2.6 tire with a, you know, the right tread co- you know, right tread, right compound, you know, the right shape, uh, right design. Mm-hmm. 32:17 Or you can have a really bad one, and the same thing goes for 3.0. Same thing goes for 2.8, and we saw that first and foremost, um, when we were developing plus tires way back when. 32:27 There were a bunch of 1,200 gram 2.8 tires out there, and- Right... you know, had, had Trek come out with a 1,200 or 1,300 gram 3.0 tire, it would've been dead. Dead. 32:41 But that being said, you know, we have an XR4 3.0 tire, and frankly, when I take my Stache out west- Mm... that's the only tire I'll ride. It's perfect. It takes that hardtail 32:55 and transitions it to something that's a way more capable b- capable bike, and sometimes I don't even realize I'm riding a hardtail. Take that same XR4 3.0 tire here in Wisconsin, it's way overkill. Yeah. 33:07 90% of the time it's too much tire, not... 33:09 So, you know, I think that thing, that same concept and same conversation transitions kind of back to fat bikes, where I could tell you this Narwhal tire is the best tire I've ever ridden, 33:20 but that's my perspective here- Right... and for the normal types of trails I ride and the con- snow conditions I ride, whereas someone in Alaska has different conditions. 33:28 And that's one of the advantages of, uh, all the new product development in the B-fat area is that there are more variety of tires. I mean, e- just within your line, you have, uh... 33:39 Well, actually, you guys really were, you were so far ahead of the curve. Uh, it, it's... When the, the first thing that you had said is 2014 you were thinking about, or 2013. 33:50 In 2014 is when you came out with your first B-fat tire. That's five years ago now. So I can see why when we were talking about, uh, in our read-through, you were like, "This isn't new." 34:03 [laughs] But, you know, some, you know, the consumers, they move very slowly. Right, and there are people- A guy that bought a bike five years ago is looking to buy a new bike now. Right. Right. 34:15 And he hasn't been thinking about it, so. Right. Well, originally you started asking too if, like, uh, if we're still bullish on the three-inch- Mm-hmm... tires as well. Right. 34:24 And the answer's yes, absolutely, with like the Stache and the full Stache that we came out with, and we still think there is a lot of benefit to that as well too. 34:32 But at the same time, we are doing 2.6 tires on some trail bikes as well. 34:38 We create a lot of different bikes for a lot of different riders who all ride in different ways, so we're trying to support a lot of different people out there. 34:47 And I like the, I like the instead of thinking of it as new standards, of thinking of as options, filling in all those blanks. Uh, I can remember in 1986, we would've killed for a 2.6-inch tire, uh, you know. So 35:02 having all those different wheel sizes, wheel rim widths, and tires, it, I see it as a good thing, so. 35:10 It's fun to see people playing around with different tire sizes and types and, you know, finding out what works best for them and, you know, it's fun. It is. And Chris, you mentioned too the regionality as well too. 35:22 You gotta, you have to allow for it because where you ride and how you ride, it varies greatly. Well, let's talk about your current ride. I know Chris brought his bike into the- I did... up to this conference room. 35:36 You know, I- We're looking at it right here. Yeah. I've gotten actually three rides on it this week, so I'm pretty pleased, you know. Um, this time of year I'm hoping to get four or five days of riding a week on it, 35:47 and, uh, actually yesterday I found my seat post actually frozen up in the frame, which it was a testament to actually riding a lot. Happens to the best of us. Which is, which is good. 35:56 [laughs] And so I, I, I think I've, uh, I've learned to make sure every season that my seat post is greased properly at all times. 36:03 Yeah, I had, I had to hold a telethon for one of my bikes that, uh, had it frozen in there and... [laughs] Yeah. It did come through eventually, but it w- and it was the crazy Coca-Cola that finally got it loose. 36:17 We tried all the over the, over-the-shelf stuff, andIt was the upside down fill it with Coke that, that finally broke it loose. 36:26 Yeah, this, this was a little brute force and, uh, some penetrating oil that kinda did the trick there. Maybe a hammer or two, maybe a vice- [laughs] -mixed in, but- And a lot of, a lot of, uh, uh, you know, worry. Yeah. 36:39 [laughs] Like, "Is this gonna break if I put this much pressure on it?" Well, what your listeners can't see is it's painted in a, kind of a custom paint scheme. It's kind of a chrome on carbon, so- Yeah... 36:48 it's kinda- It is pretty gorgeous. It's, it-- they let me take a picture. I'll, I'll put a picture, but you, you're running a dropper post. Yeah. Tell me, tell me, uh, how you feel about dropper posts. Yeah. I can't, 37:00 you know, tell you how much or how important these are for, you know, fat biking, and I think one of the things that I've found is that if you can get lower in the corners, get your center of gravity lower, you're gonna be much better off at, you know, some of those tricky corners. 37:18 Getting off the bike, getting on the bike, it all aids in, uh, a positive experience. 37:24 And so, you know, when I'm talking to friends, colleagues on what they can do with their fat bike to, to make a better experience on the trail, it's a dropper post, and, uh, even more important than even on a trail bike. 37:35 On trail bikes- Yeah... it's really important, so. That's, it's, that's all mountain biking, dropper posts are. It's, it's a game-changer. Great. Even, even an old dog like me- Mm-hmm... 37:43 a couple years ago, I rode a bike with a dropper, and I was like, "Oh my God. Where has this been all my life?" [laughs] It's like, yeah, uh, and you guys ride Cam Rock at all? Yeah, of course. 37:54 You know that rip and ride- Mm-hmm... section? I rode that faster than I've ever ridden it before. You know, just, it was, it was like turn on the switch. It's like, oh, dropper post. 38:05 You know, you can also weight your front tire, um, a little bit differently, so you can actually shift your weight back as needed, um, to weight that front tire because we all know that weighting your front tire is a, is, uh, kind of an art as well. 38:19 [laughs] Mm-hmm. And, uh, you can weight it too much, and then you'll know what happens there. Um, or if you don't weight it enough, there's also consequences there. Um, so dropper post, really important. 38:30 Get one if you don't have one. It's, uh, it's a game-changer. You know, the other thing I would like to point out is, um, I guess it was three years ago, I studded up my Narwhal 38:41 tires, and, uh, I thought it was kinda gonna be a wheel set I used just when the trails got icy. 38:47 But what I actually found was I was actually getting twice as many days on the trails as I was the year before because in those variable conditions where there might've been some ice or some glaze over, you know, a lot of-- I'm hearing from a lot of users around the world that their trails are icing over more than they have in the last, you know, five, six years, 10 years. 39:08 And so those variable conditions exist more often, and honestly, it's just great peace of mind. I'm getting out there more often and there's great peace of mind. 39:15 And for the, whatever, 60 grams for the set of studs, it's inconsequential really in the grand scheme of things. And it's, it's just kind of a-- I just keep them on the bike all year-round now actually. Yeah. 39:27 There you have it, and you'll be riding more if you- I say year-round-... stud your tires... not in the summertime, but- Yeah. [laughs]... 39:32 this, my fat bike is my winter bike, so- [laughs] We will have some comments on that one. Yeah, the winter season. What? The winter season. Yep, but they don't wear down on the pavement as much as you might think either. 39:43 You know, car- good carbide stud doesn't wear down. So talk to us about front suspension for, uh, for fat bikes. You know, we spec a bike with front suspension. Um, we worked very closely with Manitou. 39:56 Actually, I was the guy who went to Manitou and said, "Hey, we need a proper suspension fork." Um- The Mastodon? The Mastodon. What we were currently being offered, um, was good at the time. 40:09 I kind of liken it to the first dropper post. The Bluto was kinda like the first dropper post. It worked. It was great. 40:15 It was great they came out with it, but it had its time, and, uh, people were looking to push their bikes a little further, and people were riding them harder. 40:22 And so fast-forward, you know, the Mastodon came out, and we, um, we love it. 40:29 And I think it's not for everyone, granted, but if you're riding on varied terrain and boot-packed-in terrain and riding in the summertime, wanna make your bike a four-season bike, it is a great option, um, that actually works really well in the cold, and I w- I would vouch for that. 40:43 I think some users have worried that if they're riding, you know, in subzero temperatures, bike's not gonna work or the fork's not gonna work. 40:51 And, and that was definitely, um, one of the key characteristics that we went to Manitou with is this has to work in the cold because a lot of our users are riding in really, really frigid temperatures, and the thing can't go out, right? 41:04 So- And Manitou's another Wisconsin company. Mm-hmm. Uh, and they, they, uh, they make shocks for snow machines. Mm-hmm. Yeah, so they actually- So they have a ton of experience with cold weather. Right. 41:15 So they actually drew on some of their cold weather, um, suspension technology and, and, um, I won't get into all the details, but they looked at seals and oils and, and, uh, you know, it's pretty complicated to make something that works well in warm temperatures but also works well in cold temperatures because you don't know where these bikes are gonna be ridden. 41:34 Sure. Some are being w- ridden in, you know, s-su- Right... the Mongolian desert, to be honest. Right. I mean, that's- Quite right... we sell, we sell bikes to Mongolia, believe it or not. Yeah. 41:42 And, uh, some are being ridden in, you know, the most frigid temperatures of Alberta. So 41:48 it's, uh, it's, it was a tough, tough thing, but they-- I've, I've heard nothing but positive results from those people that have them. Okay. 41:57 Now talk to us about we, we had had a discussion and you mentioned a winter-specific fat bike, making a bike specifically for the winter season. 42:09 Yeah, I mean, I think there are some things that, um, those that ride their bikes specifically in winter can relate to, and one of those is rim width, tire selection, um, studs, which I kinda already mentioned. 42:24 Um, you know, bar mitts, you know, even clothing, right? 42:29 I think there are some things that-Are really important that you wouldn't necess- if you were just making an all-around fat bike, you'd probably ignore, um, or you'd compromise on. 42:38 But if you were making a winter-specific fat bike, there are some things that really are kind of meaningful. And as I, uh, hinted, um, uh, you know, tire width and rim width are, are two, 42:49 uh, t- two things that kind of go hand-in-hand. And, um, generally speaking, if you're h- if you're running a, a, um, winter fat bike, you wanna m- you wanna pair the largest rim you can, you know, to that, to that tire. 43:03 Or at least have that capability, right? Right. 43:06 And yes, there's some, you know, potential denting that can come with a, a wider rim, but the benefit of holding and supporting that sidewall under low pressures is, is pretty significant. 43:17 So when, when I think about some of the changes that are happening with fat bikes in that 43:25 companies that are looking at fat bikes as a four-season, they tend to make them th- follow the progressive geometry of mountain biking. They make a little slacker head angle. Um, so how do you feel about that? 43:40 I-- If that's another thing that I think, what's driving this slacker, slacker head angle in omni-terrain bikes? People are-- want to ride their bikes a little bit more like trail bikes. Right. 43:55 I think the popularity of trail bikes and how people ride trail bikes is kind of dictating how a lot of mountain bikes are being designed right now. Mm-hmm. 44:03 People wanna have fun on their bikes, and so that trail bike geometry has kind of taken over. It's influencing cross-country bikes just like it's influencing fat bikes and- Yeah... everything else. Yeah. It-- 44:18 the, the progression of trails, the progression of rider skills, and the- Mm... progression of that, of that geometry is kind of, um, all in, in, uh, in balance, I guess. 44:29 I just, I guess, as, as a old cross-country guy, I feel like 69/73 is kind of sacred for that winter, and there's a bunch of different ways that you can change. 44:41 You can get an angle set and you can, you can change that head tube angle. So I just wanted to see if that, if that played into your idea of what a true winter-specific fat bike would be. 44:51 There's definitely, um, some things to consider when, when, you know, designing a geometry around a winter-specific fat bike. It really comes down to, as Travis said before, what the user's gonna do with it. 45:03 If they were talking about a Arrowhead 150 or a, um, guy riding to one of the poles in Antarctica- Mm-hmm... 45:13 we'd have a completely different answer to a winter fat bike than if we're talking about a race bike to win one of the, you know, race series in, in Minnesota. Sure. So, uh, a couple things need to be taken into account. 45:27 Um, you know, obviously there's head tube angle, there's fork offset, there's, you know, your, your reach, uh, numbers, um, there's stem length, there's... 45:38 You know, you have to take into account how that wheel and tire are gonna interface, um, with the surface that they're, they're on, and that surface is very different depending [chuckles] on, um, what you're trying to do with the bike. 45:51 And a lot of fat bike races have, you know, they're planned to be groomed, and they're planned to be firm, and then they're not. Right. They're mother nature. And then people are j- Yeah. 45:58 Then people are running around and, and trying all sorts of different things, um, changing stem, you know, stems, changing, you know, bar width and tire pressures and tire selection and all sorts of things. 46:10 So, you know, I don't think we've-- I don't think the industry has actually played around that much in the last couple years. I haven't seen anything really revolutionary. 46:20 There was a couple bikes that came out that were kind of more aggressive hardtail fat bikes, and they did well for a very short time, and then word was they kinda flopped. 46:29 Um, don't know why they flopped, but, um, I think there's still work to be done in terms of, um, improving the handling on- I keep on seeing-... varied surface... 46:37 in, in the plus bi-bike realm anyway, the head tube angle's just slackening and slackening and getting down into that 65 degree head tube angle. Um, and I, and I understand the advantages of it going downhill. 46:52 It's going uphill that, and going uphill slow like I do- [laughs]... [laughs] that it misbehaves for me, so. Yeah, I mean, I, I mean, I kind of laugh at my fat bike sometimes. 47:02 If you lo- were to look closely, you'd see a 90-degree stem on there flipped upside down. [laughs] And it's probably my only bike that has a 90-degree stem on it, so does my road bike. Yeah. 47:11 And, uh, and it's probably the longest by, like, 30 millimeters. [laughs] Yeah. So, but it's important- That's got to be a 130 or something on there, right? [laughs] That's pretty long. It's, it's a 90. 47:23 Oh, 90 millimeters. Yeah. Got it. Yeah. Yeah. But, uh, it's important to have that, you know, that front end properly weighted, you know, for those flat corners and things so. Absolutely. 47:35 So is this the bike that you ride the most in, in the wintertime? It is. It is. And as you can see with the stranglehold dropout, I have it positioned kind of in the middle. 47:44 I've put it almost as far forward as I can with a narwhal and, uh, studs. So, and I kinda like that kinda happy medium of right in the middle of the, the dropout, so. Very cool. 47:57 And then we have another bike over here, one of our, uh, engineers, lead engineers, um, and he's been- I know, I know you're not gonna let me take a picture of that one 'cause I see stuff I haven't seen before. 48:06 [laughs] We'll, we'll let Travis answer that, but. [laughs] It's pretty cool. It's got a, a, uh, camo dip on it. Y- yep, that was, uh, our engineer, Eric Freberg. He took that out. 48:21 He had a favorite camo pattern that he wanted to get on this bike, so he took it to a place and we had it dipped, and it's, it's a looker. Yeah, indeed. 48:32 And a, a dropper and the, the big-The big 4.5, uh, B fat tires on there. Yeah, and y- uh, you were talking about differences in setups too. 48:41 I mean, look at the big riser bar on his bike compared to the flat bar that Chris is running as well too. Just two different types of riding styles. Cool. Well, I really appreciate you two taking the time to, uh, 48:56 to answer our questions about where things are going. I'm glad to hear that you're optimistic about the, uh, the fat bike world, 'cause, uh, you know, that's the world that we live in. Absolutely. 49:07 Thanks for coming out to- Yeah... the headquarters here. It's- Good to see you. We're kind of in the middle of it in terms of winter. Everyone's kind of enjoying their best trails right now, which- I know... 49:16 which is awesome. The, the conditions here last weekend were just awesome. Yeah. I would concur. Friday was probably the best day on- Yeah... trails that I have had in a couple years. Styrofoam, hard styrofoam snow. 49:29 Yeah, it was good. It was almost like riding in the summertime just in terms of traction. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Heck yeah. And I was talking to our trail boss today too. It's exciting. 49:39 We're getting a new groomer as well- Oh, cool... for the trails, yeah. Are you gonna, uh, uh, Trek, uh, groomer? Uh, it's a Snowdog. Oh, nice. That's correct. Yeah. Nice, yeah. Um, 49:51 and that's one thing that I'd-- I'll close the show with saying that Trek has trails right across the street that the product development team can make a small tweak on, on something. 50:04 They can rake out the fork an extra degree and go and ride it. 50:09 They can prototype it here, and they can go and ride it, and that's, I think, such a big advantage compared to the other product development processes that, that I've been exposed to. Holy cow, it's like... 50:21 Well, that's how we've been able to kinda make some of these changes and make some of these, um, 50:27 I wouldn't say new standards, because they're not new standards, but make some of these leaps and innovations because we're able to test them right away, and we can prototype them, test them, experience them, and make tweaks. 50:38 And, uh, it's kinda sh- results in the, in the products that we've come out with, and you'll continue to see Trek, uh, innovate, and that's the beauty of making bikes. Right on. Thanks again, guys. Thank you. Thank you. 50:55 [outro music] You've been listening to the Dang Gnome Podcast on Fat Bike Radio. The Dang Gnome Podcast is powered by Gnome Voodoo and is a production of the Black Black Ribbon Society. 51:09 [outro music]
