Transcript 0:00 [upbeat music] Welcome to Fat Camp show number 30 for sometime around early January 2018. 0:25 Fatbike.com presents Fat Camp, a more or less monthly podcast covering different technical aspects of fat and plus bikes. Look for all our shows at fat-bike.com/radio, or subscribe to our feed on iTunes. 0:42 [upbeat music] Wow. That song, uh, makes me wanna introduce this Fat Camp number 30. 0:59 Uh, Happy New Year, Ken. Ah, back at you, Andy. Happy New Year's. Indeed, 2018 is, um... Wow, we have so much ahead of us, but- Well, by, yeah, by the time you hear this, it's gonna have happened, but- Yeah... 1:11 it hasn't happened quite yet while we're recording. Right. But the stoke is high for 2018. Yeah, so number th- Fat Camp number 30, that means that we've been doing this for a while. Um, 1:21 but we are sitting in a cozy house right now. It is just brutally single-digit cold- [laughs]... out there, not including the wind chill. For us soft Michiganders. Yep. 1:30 I mean, if you're a Minnesotan, this is probably just another- Right... another normal winter day. Calling us out. What do you mean single digits? That's warm. 1:38 Uh, we've cuddled, cuddled up to a couple of fine blends in our cup of cheer, and, uh, we've got some things to talk about this evening. Um, a couple emails we're gonna entertain. Um, 1:51 one, uh, one thing we're gonna not talk about, but we're gonna talk about, is self-steer. I think you'll understand that later on. 1:57 [laughs] Uh, we've also, um, gonna talk about tubeless, getting tubeless again with your, with your fat tires, so that will be the super technical part of it. 2:06 Uh, we're also going to discuss lights, something that we never have talked about, but, um, our friend Doug over in La Crosse, over in Wisconsin, wanted us to chat about lights. 2:19 He had some things to say, and had a question for us, so we'll get to his email. Um, d- depending upon the ebb and flow of our conversation, we might talk about full suspension plus bikes- [laughs]... 2:30 but we'll wait and see. And, um, you'll wanna stick around for frozen eyeballs. But really, the best thing about the show is gonna be talking to Nate Phelps and the Winter Rush race series. Indeed. Indeed. 2:44 So we have an interview, kind of Q&A, whatever you wanna... We're, we're talking about a cool race that's going down in our little neck of the woods. Right. Right. 2:54 So that, that interview is gonna kick things off right away. 2:57 But, uh, what, since that music that we started with was so good, we're gonna take a little break here so we can listen to a little bit more of it and then come back with our friend, Nate Phelps. 3:07 [upbeat music] Welcome back from that quick break, campers. 3:34 We've got Nate Phelps with us on the line. He's down in Grand Rapids, Michigan, and he is gonna talk about the Winter Rush Fat Bike Race out at Big M. I think he's the race promoter or director. 3:47 Is, is that the right title I got for you, Nate? Yeah, it, yeah, it is. Okay, so and, um, he's got a... He's a race promoter for, uh, a local race that's coming up, uh, in January out at, uh, The Big M. 4:02 So we're gonna talk to him about the race, and he's gonna give us a little bit of lowdown about it, and, uh, then we'll move on from there. 4:07 And I gotta jump in here with a quick disclaimer because, um, I, I have to mention our bias in this. Uh, both Andy and I, um, are, you know, two of three primary groomers out there, so and this is our local trail. 4:21 So we aren't exactly an unbiased source of information on this trail. We've got a lot of stoke for this trail, a lot of love for this trail, so you know. It's probably the best groomed trail in the world. 4:32 I, I think it definitely is. [laughs] I think it might be the best trail in the world. I think so. I think so. But that's from a rather biased source, so sorry. Yeah. 4:40 Um, so give us a little overview about the, about the race, Nate, and what we got going on in January. Um, so what we have is, is, is a two-lap race, and, um, the course is 4:55 roughly 17 miles long, so you're doing a 34-mile race. Um, and that is, uh, you're chasing points on the Great Lakes Series. Um, we've got some cash, cash prizes, um, for the men and the women, um, 5:11 masters in that category. We, we've got some, some, uh, gift cards and goodies coming from, uh, Spindrift Cycles in Ludington. Um, but what we also have is, um, the adventurous category, 5:27 and that can be a one-lap or a two-lap, um, adventure, if you will. Um, and it makes, you can kind of make use of, uh, we've got two aid stations. You can kind of ride from aid station to aid station or, you know, 5:43 see if you wanna go for two laps. Uh, it's just kind of a nicer way to kind of do a tour if, and, um, g- still be part of the race. Um, we're not gonna officially time you, but we will definitely take, uh, 5:58 re- record the way that you finish, uh, you know, like one through 10, um, and we'll have some fun prizes-... and cards, uh, from Central District Cyclery, um, for stupid human feats of, 6:11 uh, strength, I guess I'll call it. You know? Yes. I, I'm sure there's gonna be some really good experiences out there that are gonna be worthy of a prize. 6:20 [laughs] Um, but in a nutshell, that's kinda what's going on out there. 6:25 Um- So, so like the, the course, um, uh, this is kind of a unique course, uh, for r- really most fat bike races, at least in the Midwest, and I think definitely as, as far as the series goes. 6:39 You wanna tell us a little bit about that? Yeah. Um, so I, I, I m- may have to make a disclaimer because I really haven't Google searched it, but I think this is one of the longest races in Michigan, 6:54 um, if not the longest in fat bike. But what really makes it stand out is it- it's, it's about 99% single track, groomed single track. Um, so typically, um, you know, races are held on groomed, 7:11 um, to 48 inches b- or wider, um, and so riders can get by each other, but it's not really single track. Um, so this is a groomed single track. 7:23 There'll be some passing zones and lanes kinda groomed in so that you can get around folks. Um, but it, it, it'll be a much more... You have to be much more attentive, um, on this course. You're not... 7:34 It's not just gonna be speed. There's gonna be skill involved. Yeah, 'cause when- Um-... when we groom it, it's 20 inches wide. Y- yeah. Uh, we rode it last week, last weekend, 7:46 uh, a group of us and, and we did it more as a, um, you know, a booze cruise. Um- [laughs] And [laughs] it, it took a little longer than normal, but y- it... You really, you're, you're out there. 8:00 You feel like you're out there in the middle of nowhere, um, and you're just kinda following this groomed single track through. Um, we... I know there'd been just a big dump of snow. 8:12 It was a little soft on the one back half, but for the most part it was a real hard tread. It's groomed well. 8:19 Um, able to get up and, up and down most of the hills, except for there's a couple of big ones that were, uh, a little elusive. Um, but, uh, 8:29 uh, the biggest part, and I, and you just gotta stay in that 20-inch track and it's just... You know, you're carrying speed and you drag a pedal into the si- into the snow bank and all kinds of hell breaks loose. 8:41 Um, it's, it's that kind of race, which I think are far and few between. Well, uh- Um. Can you talk a little bit about, um, what's going on while I'm watching my, uh, my husband race or my wife race or my kid race? 8:57 Is there gonna be some stuff going on, you know, i- in the, in the, um, race venue? Yeah. So we have the lodge. There's a small lodge there. We'll have that heated with wood fire. Um, we'll have s- um, 9:13 a couple of burning splits, you know, ready to go. Um, and we're just encouraging people to kinda bring their own picnic and, you know, make use of the fire, grill food. Um, we'll also have, 9:26 uh, as part of registration right now, you can, um, order a chicken or a, a tofu-based, um, meal that we'll have on hand there. We'll hand it over to you and you kinda cook it yourself. Nice. Um, and then, um, 9:43 have a d- a great relationship with a, an up and coming, um, chef in the Grand Rapids area, um, Devin Maloney, and, um, he's just gonna throw some basic sides and things together all from scratch. So we'll have some... 9:58 Oh, winter, roasted winter vegetables, some baked beans. Um, I think he's making rolls or biscuits, I don't remember which. 10:08 Um, and then barbecue s- I meant a couple different barbecue sauces that he'll make from scratch. Um, butter from scratch. And, um, I'm probably missing some other key ingredient that I can't think. 10:21 But we'll have that available and you can kinda hang out with us. Um, I think there's some sledding options, a few other things going on right there on site. Certainly could ski. Um- Yeah, I think-... cross country ski. 10:35 Yeah, th- this is one of the best, uh, classic ski areas in the Lower Peninsula. Uh, I don't remember, what is it, 30K of skiing? I think so. Yeah. 10:44 So, you know, if somebody's looking for something to do if they got a significant other or kid or something that's racing, that's definitely a good option. Yeah, totally. You know, and then- Two different trail systems. 10:54 Yeah. Yeah, totally. Yeah. Yeah, totally separate trail systems. 10:58 Um, now what we are asking people, um, if you're racing and you're, you wanna be, you know, supported by your loved one or neutral, do that up by the start and finish line. We'll have two aid stations on course, 11:11 um, but... And we'll have food and beverages at the aid stations. Um, but we'd kinda like to 11:21 just keep that neutral and, you know, not have a lot of other people trying to feed a racer or, uh, um, individual racers and things like that, but just, um... 11:30 But somebody could certainly venture out and hang out a- at the aid stations and then check things out as they're coming through. 11:36 Um, but- And I will say, uh, from talking to some of the locals that are planning to man aid stations, I think it's going to be a party in the woods. 11:45 [laughs] Well, you know, and that could make that whole adventure even more adventurous. Um- Exactly. [laughs] So, you know, um, I, 11:55 I, I, I don't wanna say it's impossible to get lost, but, uh, I think as long as you stay on the groom and you go from aid station to aid station, you'll have a pretty good time. [laughs] Yep. Gotcha. Yeah. Yeah. 12:05 I would definitely concur. [laughs] You know? Um, and so, um, you know, it... There's really-It's just kinda like a, a big... It's a big area, you know? And you can cover, it- to be able to cover 17 miles, 12:21 um, on a fat bike without duplicating anything is really awesome. Um, and I'm sure the same could be said about the skiing and some of the other stuff that's going on. 12:31 Even though I don't partake in it, I certainly get the idea that, that 30K is a lot of c- a lot of cool ski trail to work with. Um, you know, so all that's kinda g- hoping going on. Um, Manistee's not far. 12:45 I understand there's a new brewery there. I haven't tried it myself, but you guys seem to think it, it, it w- it was worth a stop anyhow. Definitely. Yeah, definitely worth a stop. 12:54 So [laughs] if you got a little too cold during the day and, and, and you didn't wanna wait for your, your loved one to come across, uh, the course, you could kinda also go do that for a little warm up and come back. 13:06 Cool. Um, so there's all that kind of good stuff going on in that area. And, um, you've got, uh, more information on a website and Facebook or something like that? Yeah. Um, so my winterrush.com website is, um, 13:23 right now solely dedicated to this race. Okay. Um, I only have one other Winter Rush race this year, which will be at Kandardsburg with, um, Fat Bike Nationals. 13:33 Um, but so winterrush.com will, is kinda specific to the Big M race this year. We're using BikeReg, um, for registration, so you can search, search there. A lot of the same information's on both sites. 13:46 Um, and c- of course, we're just beating the world with our Facebook presence on this. [laughs] Um, so [laughs] um, kind of post-race we'll, we'll have some, uh, Instagram, some other stuff kind of going along with it. 13:59 Um, and then, um, I think January 6th we're gonna try to do a group ride up there, get some more pictures and video and, um, get some things going, and then maybe that'll kinda get that Instagram account pumping. Yeah. 14:14 Um, right now it's a little, little short on info, but uh- We'll put, uh, we'll put the, those links down in the show notes though, and so people can, um, you know, as they're listening to this, they can click on that and get some more information at the, your Facebook and your, uh, winterrush.com I think it is, right? 14:29 Yep, yep. Cool. Thank you so much. No problem, no problem. 14:32 Yeah, and for those people that might not be familiar with the metropolis of Manistee, um, uh, just kinda location wise, um, we're on sort of the west shore of, um, Michigan, uh, about an hour and a half out of Grand Rapids, um, probably about an hour from Traverse City, um, so it's a pretty easy location. 14:52 Good roads all the way, um, up to it, so, you know, it's, it's a pretty easy place to end up getting to. It's not too terribly far out in the middle of nowhere. Although it might feel like it when you're- Yeah... 15:04 on the trail. 15:05 [laughs] Well, you know, as we talked, we, we were talking a little earlier, I think the only thing missing t- a- and maybe, maybe it exists and I'm just not aware of it, but there's not like a Bigfoot, been a recent Bigfoot sighting, 15:19 um, you know, or, or rabid bear or, you know, something like that to make it even more interesting. But, um- I-... when you're riding out there, [laughs] you definitely feel like you're out there... 15:29 I will, I will say though that 2017 was the year of Dogman. Um, that's a- Oh, okay... it's, that's a, a, a local thing. Um, I haven't heard any recent sightings, but you never know. Could be on race day. Okay. 15:43 [laughs] Well, we'll... I, you know what? That seems like that's worth of a prize if somebody got a picture. Definitely. Right, right. [laughs] And Dogman certainly has got the Squatches out of the area though, so. 15:53 Yeah, yeah. It's kinda territorial- Okay... that way from what I hear. Yeah. Got it. Well, that probably explains why all those trees are marked yellow, huh? Yeah. [laughs] [laughs] So on that note, uh, yeah, I don't... 16:08 Do you have anything else you want to end up saying about the race, Nate, or? Uh, no. I think we've, we've done a great job with it, Ken and Andy. Thanks. Actually, yeah. It's cool. Good, good to have you on. 16:17 I'm really stoked about this race. Um, we're really geeked about prepping for it. 16:22 We're gonna be grooming like crazy to make sure it's, it's, it's a really good race experience, whether you're like, you know, a super serious person or you're just going out there for, you know, kick butt adventure. So. 16:33 Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Looking at- Cool. Yeah... good times. Yeah. Um, well, hopefully we'll connect on the 6th and if, you know, we'll, uh, get a chance to ride together. Cool. All right. Thanks, Nate. Happy trails. Yep. 16:46 Yeah, talk to you later. Bye. I see a little twinkle in your eye. Feeling kind of moody. Your lips are looking droopy. Tell the truth to me. I can see a little twinkle in your eye. 17:02 If you feel you're overflowing. Throw your hands straight up through the sky. If your mind is exploding. Grab yourself a seat, it's time to ride 17:21 Well, that was cool to get a chance to talk with him, though. Yeah. You know? Yeah. That was good. No doubt. Sweet, sweet. I'm, I'm really stoked about this race, so. Yeah, it'll be fun. No pressure, Ken, no pressure. 17:30 [laughs] It all depends on what's going on grooming wise if I'm gonna be racing or not. Right. Grooming comes first, and if I don't have to groom a shite ton beforehand- Right... 17:38 then I plan on racing, 'cause I think it's gonna be- So it-... super fun... and, and that's what has been going on lately with you. I know you spent a long weekend dealing with groomers. Um- [laughs]... 17:48 it seems like it's the year of the dump. Yeah, for us this year, we've gotten two really good snows so far, with a lot of little snows in between. One little melt in there, but didn't wipe us out, so we kept our base. 18:00 Sure. Yeah. So I, I'm pretty stoked. A lot of grooming going on. Um, a lot of dialing in equipment. 18:06 You know, we're still, we're still kinda tweaking the track sled and trying to figure that all out and figure out the best way to turn that into trail magic, so. We've kind of, we've kind of gotten, uh, soft in our age. 18:17 We, we don't wanna powder hound it anymore. We wanna, "Wow, I can go out and groom, you know? And then I can, the next day or that night- Yeah... you know, I'm all set." That's- Right, yeah. 18:25 I, I think we've wisened up a little bit. 18:27 I mean, it's, I still like to get after it and go out and break trail and stuff like that, and go on a big adventure someplace, but-When you've got just mint groomed single track, and I, you know, I think this is my, my default time to start raving about the track sled versus any other type of grooming equipment. 18:44 Mm-hmm. Yeah. And I think I apologize Fat Camp listener world, you're gonna [laughs] hear this a lot over the next couple months of shows. Probably, yeah. 18:50 But it still blows me away how good an implement that is, because it just banks out all the corners correctly. 18:58 You know, like y- any other groomer where you've got like an articulated hitch off the back of a snowmobile or whatever, and, you know, the, the base of the groomer squishes down to whatever the ground is doing. 19:07 So, if your ground is not the right camber, it's not, you know, the corners aren't banked the right direction, you're not fixing that. Right. 19:14 Whereas with the track sled, just by nature of how you steer the thing, you have to get the camber correct to the corners, so all the corners turn out banked. 19:23 I think about that while I'm doing the, the grooming that I do, 'cause I do it with the snowmobile and the roller and the pan. 19:29 And there's some sections on that little loop that I do that I'm like, "This is gonna suck no matter what I do- Yeah... and where I drive this thing." 'Cause of, 'cause of, [laughs] 19:39 you know, it, it goes straight and then it dips down and it comes back up, and it's just- Yep... g- it's gonna be off ca- it's, you're not gonna be able to, to- Well, it almost-... curve it at all... 19:46 it's, it's, a lot of times it almost seems like it creates more off camber- Yeah... in corners. Totally. Yeah. And that's just 'cause of the way the weighting of the snowmobile goes. 19:56 As you go around the corner, that outside ski and everything gets weighted more. Right. 19:59 So, it just kind of like compacts the outer edge more and more and more so it gets lower and lower and lower, just the opposite of what you want. Yeah. 20:05 I feel like I'm at Raise, you know, in February doing some, some trials side of the park- [laughs]... just trying to get around a corner. But you're totally right, sometimes just, ah, it's crazy. But anyway. 20:17 Well, and, you know, there, there's plenty of ways to fix that. Like, for instance, um, I was up at Crystal, which is, um, a private ski area. 20:26 They got some, you know, good fat bike trails and stuff, and I was talking to the guy that grooms out there. 20:30 And ah, man, I wish I had written down the name of this shovel, but it's basically, it's a, it's a special collapsible shovel. 20:38 Um, it looks like it's pretty much all aluminum, but, um, it's got a serrated edge out on one part, and then it's... I'm trying to figure out how to describe it. 20:47 If you're looking at it, um, in the side view, it's kind of got like two 45 degree angles off of a flat spot. Oh, wow. And it's, it's, it's... It sounded like the U shape. Is it U shaped? Uh, yeah, kind of. 21:00 Like, it's not quite U shaped. It's, it's kind of like if you ended up having a W, and but you got rid of the middle hump and you just connected the two bottom vertices. Right. 21:10 Yeah, whatever you wanna call it, half of a hexagon? Um, I would call it a terracotta plant, uh, terracotta pot shaped. [laughs] Yeah, okay. Yeah. I ca- I can run with that. You see that? I can run with that. All right. 21:22 Yeah. Yeah, so the side, yeah, the side view would look like that. And I've been waiting to say that it's pot shaped- [laughs]... over these last 30 podcasts. 21:29 But the reason why we bring all this up- [laughs] Um, it, I guess, the, Crystal ended up getting a ton of these things because a lot of their groomers, like, in the, um, the park area of their downhill, um, they, they shape a lot of jumps and other features- Oh, for snowboarders and stuff... 21:47 and stuff. Yeah. Yeah. So, what he was... Like, when I ran into him, he was heading out to do one of the trails basically to, to reshape the corners to bank them in. Um- Really?... 21:57 that's the section of Pineapple, which is like, it's this super, you know, super swoopy- This is Creamy doing this? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Wow. Chris Creamy. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. So, um, it's, it's a super fun section of trail. 22:07 I've always wondered how they- Yeah, oh, that's sweet... had got it to that, and it's 'cause he's out there with a shovel shaping it like, you know, it was a dirt jump or whatever, which is awesome. 22:15 I mean- He should have never showed you that tool. Well, I, I think it'd be a great tool to have for a lot of different things. 22:21 Because- Well, and you could just strap it onto the Rokon, or the, um, not the Rokon, but the- The Trackstar... Trackstar. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it's super compact. Yeah. 22:27 So, it looked like it could be a really good tool to have in the arsenal. Um- Nice... I just have to remember what the name of it is. Yeah. Yeah. 22:35 So- We wanted to start the show off, and we'll continue with what we've been up to lately. Um, I'll give you one guess. [laughs] Holy cow. Grooming, grooming, and riding. Yeah. Riding. Yeah. And more riding. 22:46 Like, like, I went through, like, this mental health week where I wasn't... My riding schedule got off so much because of what was going on with the weather that I wasn't consistently riding, and I, I about went crazy. 22:57 [laughs] 'Cause it, it was so weird with, with practical reality and with snow conditions. But now- Well, pre-Christmas kind of- Yeah... week. I mean, just crazy. "Oh, there's a band concert I gotta go to. 23:08 I guess I can't ride." Um- But at the same time, and I, and this, I, this is kind of a, a dick thing to say, 'cause this is almost like salt in the wound, but it was some of the best riding ever at Big M. 23:19 I got out two days before you went. Oh, my goodness. Yeah, it was great. Yeah. It was awesome. Yeah. It, um, what, what ended up happening is we, you know, got a big dump of snow, and then we got a melt period. 23:29 And during that melt period, um, the center section where people had ridden f- refroze as basically, you know, ice. A gutter. Yeah. It, so there was kind of this gutter. 23:40 So what happened is we went out and groomed it and took out all of the, um, all of the irregularities, all the ruts and everything else. Mm-hmm. 23:47 Like, it made it nice and smooth again, y- but it took the looser snow from the sides of the trail, put it on top of this ice. Yeah. And, you know, [laughs] 23:56 like, right after doing it, it was super sketchy because it basically camouflaged all the ice. But luckily, we ended up having a day where it got, I think it was, like, 36 degrees. It was just above freezing. 24:08 And it was enough where it softened the ice, and that was the day that you rode. Right. And you h- like, by riding it, you kind of, like, smashed the snow down, it kind of helped the two to bond. Oh. 24:19 It also texturized the, you know, the, sort of the hard pan ice- Yeah... that was in the middle. So then, the day after, and it's been pretty much solid below freezing since then- Yeah... it was amazing. 24:33 It was like- I thought it was really good when I went. It was... Yeah, it was just- Is even, wow. It was even better. Okay. Um-Yeah, I mean, it, it was some of the best conditions I've ever run out there. 24:42 Yeah, 'cause you did two loops. Yeah, two laps of it, yep. Yeah. So- So 34 miles of single track groomed. Yep. Just- Amazing... which I guess you can find that anywhere, you know? [laughs] Jesus. 24:55 Um, so we've been grooming. Ken's been riding a ton. I've been dealing with my kids' band concerts and blah, blah, blah. Um- But the f- stoke is full on. Oh, totally. We are in the middle of our- Yeah... 25:07 holiday break, and- Yeah... we are, like, uh, trying to stay warm, and [laughs] Right... it's just really freaking cold. Yeah. But, uh, getting stoked to go groom more trail. Right. Exactly. 25:19 Yeah, like- Um- So the race, it's like the, the big project for this week is to groom alternate lines so that there's all these passing lanes. Oh my gosh. And then- Now, now, not only are you gonna groom single track, 25:30 you get to, you get to be like, um, [laughs] some type of infrastructure [laughs]... engineer and get to figure out where people are gonna be allowed to pass. 25:40 Well, but- Are you just gonna widen it in certain spots, or- No, no, no, no. I'm gonna do, I'm gonna do a whole separate line. So like, it's like- That's a shit ton of snow to go through. 25:48 Oh, yeah, but I mean, the track sled can do that. Oh, okay. So, you know, we end up going over it a couple times. 25:53 But what I d- what I don't want to have happen is it s- does like the lion trap thing, so it looks like it's good, but then you get into it, and then you just, like, sink way down. 26:01 So we're gonna have to hit those alternate lines a few times. But what I'm thinking, it's like while I was riding it, you can see these cut-throughs. And the snow's deep enough now where it just completely fills in. 26:12 So you can, you can take the insides of some of the corners, um, 'cause fundamentally there's gonna be a harder, better line that might be a little bit longer, so you can carry your speed a little bit more. Sure. 26:23 And then there's gonna be kind of a, a kind of a shortcut way, but it'll probably a, well, a slower track. Okay. So it's, it's gonna work out to be pretty much equal either way. Um- Wow. 26:32 Yeah, so, you know, I think it's, I think it's gonna be, you know, pretty darn good. I mean, you know, it's like- Wow... 26:37 I mean, I think it's gonna be pretty equal between the two, so it's not like somebody's gonna be like, "Okay, this is, like, the, the primo line," unless you really know it. 26:44 You know, and, like, there might be a few primo lines out there. But either way, it's gonna be pretty good, and, you know, it's gonna make it so people can get past each other. It, it really pays to know the groomer. 26:52 [laughs] To, to know what's going on and how much thought process is going into it. 26:56 Yeah, it's always good, like, when you're gonna go to ride someplace, if you know the groomer and you can text him, "Hey, so what's the inside scoop on- Right, right... the conditions?" Exactly. Yeah. 27:04 [laughs] What are the conditions? Hey, uh, one th- one thing I wanna talk about that has made my life a lot easier is finally I have two complete, uh, completely different wheel sets- Oh, yeah... 27:17 with the s- with the same cassette on both that are worn in enough that they still will work with the chain that I have on. Yep. Um, and they're both tubeless. 27:28 One's a Powderhound, and one is, uh- Bud and Lou's- Bud and Lou... on 80s. Yep. Yep, on 80s. And then the other... And that's aluminum, so it doesn't mi- I don't mind it being heavy. Yep. 27:37 Oh, you're just, you're slogging through snow anyways. Right, right, right. And then the other is carbon 80s with my, um, studded, uh, Waziia and, uh, my recently purchased studded Waziia and, uh- Dillinger 5? 27:49 Dillinger 5. W- and I c- dude, you just swap them out, slide the droppers out. [laughs] Like, I can, I'm, now I'm approaching you. 27:57 [laughs] Like, I can really, like, oh, well, I'm gonna have different conditions today, so I'm gonna change my wheel set lickety-split. No, it, it's- It's so cool... it, it's awesome. 28:06 And it's- It's only taken me, like, five years to get this. [laughs] No, it's totally awesome. 28:10 I mean, like, I mean, I look at my riding this year, and it's, like, it's been about one-third, you know, like, the hardcore powder type stuff where you want to have, you know, Bud and Lou or two XLs or, you know, something like that high volume- Yeah... 28:24 knobby ass tire that you're gonna be running, you know, like, one to two PSI kinda thing. Yeah. And just laying down track. 28:31 Or then you end up going the other direction and, you know, like, you know, the setup that you're running, just, it's b- it's the exact same thing I'm doing. Dilly 5 on the front and then a, um, 46 Waziia on the rear. 28:42 Yeah, yeah. Um, and that's perfect for if you've got really fast trail conditions or you've got icy trail conditions. I mean- But it still does good in the snow, too. But that's what I gonna say, yeah. 28:52 And m- so often you don't just get one thing when you go out and ride. You can't tone it down on the, on the snow snow. Yeah. 28:57 You know, it's like if you let that down, um, you know, nice and low and it'll, it'll plow through a whole bunch of stuff. Oh, yeah. It's a still really capable setup. Yeah. 29:05 So yeah, there's, there's a lot of range in there. And then, you know, like, the big thing is with the... You gotta have studded tires in your arsenal if you ever see ice in your world. Yeah. 29:15 And, you know, for here we're always getting, you know, freeze-thaw, freeze-thaw. 29:18 And like I was talking about with the big M trail, you know, there's, there, I mean, there's, there's ice out there when we go through that freeze-thaw cycle. Yeah. 29:27 And it is so nice to have the studded tires that just, like, not have to worry about dying. Um, and it just, you know, the [laughs] there's this one really long downhill. It kind of goes down the fall line. 29:37 It's, uh, w- local, we call it the Ganja Bomber. Oh, yeah. Um, and- [laughs]... like, that was a section that was icy. You know, I talked about before how the two layers had bonded. That had not. 29:49 I don't know what was going on there. But you can fly down this downhill, you know, like, you know, 20 miles an hour or whatever. 29:55 You're on a 20-inch wide track, and you can just drift through these gradual corners through there. Yeah. 30:02 And slide both wheels and just have the utmost confidence and just fly down that thing and have so much fun with studs. Nice. Nice. Whereas, you know, there was a couple pucker moments for people who didn't have those. 30:14 Pucker moments. Yeah. I like that. [laughs] Nice. Geez. Uh, so now I'll give you two guesses to tell us, to guess what's been going on in our real life. Yeah. Yeah. 30:24 [laughs] Hey, let's, um, let's take a quick break, and we'll get back, and we're gonna hammer out some emails. Um, so more of this cosmic music. 30:36 [upbeat music][upbeat music] We're back, campers And we are throwing our hands into the sky. 30:53 [laughs] And my- I'm still nodding my head from that song. Yep. [sings] So hey, um, let's get right into it. Um- Something we're not gonna talk about... something we're not gonna talk about. Josh had a concern. 31:04 He's from Maine. Um, dude, [laughs] Yes... in the wintertime, 'cause we're on the western side of the Eastern Time Zone- Yes... and Josh is on the eastern side- [laughs]... 31:15 of the same time zone, his sun sets at like 3:45. That would really suck. It's like 4:00, but, you know- Yeah... just exaggerate it. 4:00. Yeah. Oh my gosh. 31:27 Yeah, I like- That's- I mean, our, ours is, I feel like it's bad when it's 5:15, but- Oh, but it rises earlier. Yeah, but who's, who is up to enjoy the sunrise, I guess? 31:35 Well, during, yeah, a weekend I could make it work, but man- Yeah... work schedule, it's nice to be able to get out of work and have a little bit of light. Yeah. Sorry about your sunsets, Josh. Yep. 31:44 Um, but anyway- Moving on, self-steer... he had, he had a question about self-steer, and, uh, the last- But-... time I knew about self-steer I had some crazy tires on. 31:53 [laughs] Well, okay, so the reason why we're not gonna talk about self-steer is because if you're running the right tires for your conditions and you're running them at the right pressure, you shouldn't have any self-steer- Okay... 32:06 in, in most modern tires. Okay. So that, you know, he, he had commented that we hadn't really talked a lot about self-steer in the past. That's why. And we're not going to talk about it. But 32:20 he- Do you have a theory about this? Well, I kind of got a theory about this. 'Cause we're not gonna talk about it. Yeah. [laughs] Um- [laughs] No, exactly. 32:31 Yeah, so the, the, h- part of his question was he's wondering what effect like a 27.5 tire would end up having on self-steer, if it'll improve it or it would decrease it. Okay. Um, 32:44 I don't know for sure what's going on with self-steer. 32:47 Um, I thought about, uh, calling in some favors and talking to some bicycle tire industry enginerds out there that might be able to actually have an educated opinion about this. And? However, didn't do that. 33:03 So my theory- Okay... on self-steer is that it's, it's kind of the same thing that's going on with it that you would have, like, on a differential on a car. 33:12 Why, you know, why, like, the inside wheel has less far to go than the outside wheel in a corner. Oh, wow, okay. So with the, y- you, you get more self-steer with wider tires. 33:26 So if, if you are running a 4.8-inch tire on 100 mil rim, it's very easy to get self-steer. Okay. 33:34 But, you know, if you're on like a road or some other, like, super hard surface, like, like I said, if you're riding the appropriate tire and the- Oh... appropriate pressure- Yeah... 33:41 you're never gonna experience the self-steer. 33:43 But that's a case where you might be riding to the trailhead or riding to the beach or, you know, whatever during the summer, or you get on a gravel road in the winter and it's kind of, like, melted off and it's really, really, really, you know, grippy, you know, whatever, you, you might experience some self-steer in those types of situations with that tire. 34:01 Okay. Um, 34:03 so what I think is going on is that the wider tire, it's got a flatter contact patch and it's got a wider contact patch, so there's a bigger differential between, you know, that, that effect of when you're going around a corner, the inside, you know, portion of the tire has to go less far than the outside portion of the tire. 34:23 So since, you know, you're kind of, like, almost, like, overrunning, you know, you're kind of accelerating the outside of the tire, whatever you wanna call it, or it's, it's driving further, so it's got to, like... 34:33 It- it's almost like you're skidding out on one side, and then it's almost like you're braking- Right. Yeah... on the inside of the tire. That's what causes- And that's what causes-... it to want to dive in. 34:42 Technical aspects of fat and plus bikes. I don't, you know, I don't know if that's accurate or not, but- All right... they, so- But y- you shouldn't be riding your Apache down a g- concrete road, a asphalt road. 34:54 [laughs] Well- Right?... the, I mean, the, the, the Vee Tire Apache, which is a slick, like, it's a big tire. It's a true, like, five-inch tire. 35:03 It seems like it's a bigger casing than most tires that are labeled as a 4.8. Right. And I think it was labeled as, like, a 4.5 or 4.6, but it's a big flipping tire. 35:12 Um, and if you run that thing at, let's say, beach pressures- Yeah... which would be, you know, normally, I, I mean, it's gonna be single digits for sure. Sure. 35:21 Then you get on the road, and the thing, you've got all this surface area to kind of grab onto the road, so it's got some self-steer. I've noticed that with pretty much every 4.8-inch tire that I've ridden. 35:34 Now, there's some tires that are a little bit better than other tires, and it's been... I've been trying to kind of suss out why. 35:43 And, um, I think it has to do with how the knobs interact with the ground, 'cause one of the- I was just gonna say that. I wonder if it's m- the micro abnormalities in the concrete. I, I think, yeah. 35:59 There's, there's a few different things that it'll affect your, your, basically your coefficient of friction. Yeah. So okay, like, um, I mean, I mean, I gotta attack this from two different angles. 36:10 So first off- Absolutely... I wanna talk about one of the [laughs] tires that classically has been the worst when it comes to self-steer out there. Can I guess? Go for it. Uh, Larry. No. Oh, wow. No. Okay. 36:24 It's the, it was the Vee Tire Mission. Oh. I don't know if they make it anymore. Okay. 36:28 Um, but what, what ha- what was going on with it is it had these, I, I, I don't know how else to describe them other than pyramid-shaped knobs in kind of, like, the transition and getting a little bit more towards the side knobs. 36:41 Okay. So in other words, you had, you know, a ton of pressure put onto the tip of this knob, and then the base of the knob is super well-supported, so the knob can't flex. Oh. 36:51 So what happens, like, it technically in the physics world, um-It doesn't make... I'm trying to figure out how to say this best. 37:00 Yeah, it's r- you know, in the physics world they talk about, like, n- y- you know, normal forces and stuff like that, but it's like how much- Right... your weight is, like, forcing you into the ground. Sure. Um, 37:09 on, you know, when it really comes to most frictional things, unless there's, like, a texture, there's, like, an interlock of the two materials that are sliding next to each other- Mm-hmm... 37:18 um, you know, if they're both two are, like, smooth surfaces basically, it doesn't make a difference how much surface area you have. 37:25 You know, it, it's more of a matter of what the two materials are and then how much force you got on it. Okay. So if it's a small contact patch or a big contact patch, you get the same amount of friction either way. 37:36 Okay. But when you start to get textures and things like that, that changes. 37:42 Um, you know, like, when the two materials can kind of interlock and you get a, sort of a, a physical deformity or, you know, like the two kind of, like, lock in step, if you would, you know, the highs and the lows kind of- Yeah... 37:54 fall like a line. Right. You can, you can get really, really, really high levels of frictional force. And what I'm thinking happens is like the Bud and Lou, that's kind of a... 38:03 That's, that are tall kind of floppy knobs, and it doesn't have a ton of self-steer. And I think what it is is that the knobs can kind of flex enough that it, it, it kind of decreases the amount of force. 38:15 Like, the knobs can take up a little bit of the slop for that inside part of the tire having less far to go than the outside. Does it cover the oversteer? It's, it's, it's, it's counter... It's like a gimbal? 38:26 [laughs] Yeah. Down at the bottom of the tire. I like it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. It's a gimbal. It's almost like it, it, it takes up some of the slop- Okay... and some of the, some of the force. Yeah. 38:33 Whereas, like, with that, you know, that situation I was talking about with the Vee Rubber tire, you had a ton of force on this little pressure area. Oh. 38:40 So it really, like, it took the rubber and just, like, crammed it into the ground, and then what it did is like with... 'Cause since the knobs were angled from all directions, the knobs couldn't flex. Yeah. You know? 38:51 So you've got, like, this pinpoint where you got all this pressure- And so it manifests itself way up in the top of the lever. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So it, it really had a ton of self-steer to it. Um- Uh. 39:02 So, um, I think that's what's going on with self-steer, what, what, what is the cause of it. I don't really know. I'll buy it. Um, so if that's the case, 39:13 and you can take your contact patch and you can elongate it and make it skinnier, so you have this- Yeah. 39:19 You know, it's like if you think about it, if for any given tire if you've got five PSI on it, you should end up having the same exact contact patch, but with a bigger diameter wheel it gets skinnier and longer- Right... 39:33 versus, you know, a smaller diameter, outside diameter wheel, it's gonna end up getting, you know, wider and shorter. Okay. 39:39 So if it is a side to side thing where based upon, you know, like, how c- how far away you are from the ra- you know, sort of the center of the corner and what the radius is- Mm-hmm... 39:47 the radius differential between your tire line on the inside and the outside, um [laughs] the skinnier contact patch will be less differential. 27 and a half? Yeah. Okay. 39:59 So I would think the 27 and a half would have, be less naturally inclined for any given tire width for self-steer, and knob design, and blah, blah, blah. Wow. 40:12 No, I think you did the blah, blah, blah before you actually said blah, blah, blah. [laughs] That was great. I think I probably just like, yeah, hopefully- No, I, I-... pleased everybody... I, no, I think 40:22 I totally understand what you're saying with that d- 'cause once you s- threw in the, uh, well, the, the floppy knob. [laughs] We've talked about floppy knobs before I think. 40:31 [laughs] I think, I think you're the one that always brings up floppy knobs. I think [laughs] okay, it's been brought up. Okay. But, like, the people that we hang, people that we ride with, they would totally 40:41 enjoy that discussion that you just I hope somebody does. I hope so. Yeah. I don't know. It's good. It's good. It's kind of just, like, one of those- Yeah... 40:46 little random thoughts I was having- We're not gonna talk about it though... when you asked me about it, so. We're not gonna talk about it. No. 40:50 'Cause you need the right- No, 'cause you don't, you don't need to worry about it. Self-steer is- You need the right tire for the right situation... self-steer is a BS conversation 'cause- Right... 40:56 shouldn't, modern tires- Right... riding r- right stuff, blah, blah, blah. Right. Let's get to- We don't talk about it... let's get into something you wanna talk about. Yeah. Come on. Yeah. 41:03 Uh, email, uh, from Gome- uh, somebody emailed Gomez and Gomez, uh, forwarded it to us. So I'm gonna actually read this one and then, um, we're gonna talk about it briefly because I think... My glass is empty. Oh, man. 41:16 You're drinking faster than me. Uh, I'm picking up my- I need to catch up. You talk. It... So this is, this is an email from Jeff. He says, "I'm picking up my first Fatty today." Congratulations, Jeff. Cheers. 41:24 "I'm having them convert my new Fat Boy tire wheels to tubeless even before I pick it up. Question is, what happens if I flat? 41:33 Can you point me to an article or directions on how to compile the best flat kit specific to tubeless fat biking?" Did I read that correctly? Yes, you did. Uh, and that's from Jeff. Um, what do you got? Okay. 41:48 So I think- First of all, good move. Going tubeless? Going tubeless. Oh, heck yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I think- Yeah... I think, yeah, either you don't have the appropriate gear to run tubeless or 42:01 you- You're not listening... you don't have any idea what you're missing. You're not listening to this podcast. Yeah, yeah. Right. Tubeless is rad. Right. 42:07 Um, but the, the thing is th- there's an asterisks on everything I'm gonna say after this of making sure you've got a good and dialed tubeless setup. Okay. Um- What makes a good and dialed tubeless setup? 42:20 It is, like, you've got... In general, it's gonna end up being a tubeless ready tire, or you're gonna have a tubeless ready rim, or you're gonna have both. Ideally both. Ideally both. Yep. 42:30 And there's, the fat biking world has been kind of slow to standards on this. Which do you think people have right now? Do they have a tubeless ready rim, a tubeless ready tire, or do they have both on their bike? 42:45 I think it's probably if we actually did a survey it'd be alarmingly low how many people have tubeless ready rims on their fat bike. But they pr- they more than likely, or more people would have tubeless ready tires. 42:57 Yeah. 42:58 I mean, the manufacturers of tires switched over to tubeless ready-In general, like a couple years ago Okay But I think there's a lot of fat bikes out there that are either, um, on the cheaper end of the spectrum right now... 43:11 'Cause I mean, let's face it, you can get a fat bike pretty darn cheap right now- Sure, yeah... for like a second bike or whatever. 43:15 So if you've gotten your bike in the last couple years and you haven't paid a lot, you likely do not have tubeless ready rims- Okay... because they were the older design. Okay. 43:22 It's only like the newest, kinda latest, greatest rim designs that are gonna be tubeless ready in the last couple years. If you've got an older fat bike, you know, that's more than two years old- Yeah... 43:31 you know, it's very, very likely you do not have a tubeless ready rim. So, you know, it's like the rim has kinda been the lagging technology when it comes to tubeless setups. Right. 43:41 And, you know, for instance, on my tandem, and this, this is the reason why I c- I put this big asterisk on this, is because on my tandem I run clown shoes, which I've converted over to be tubeless, and I've got a tubeless ready tire. 43:54 You know, clown shoe rim, um, by certainly not a tubeless specific rim. Oh. And I ran it in warmer temperatures no problem, but as soon as it drops down like below 20, um, it won't stay tubeless. 44:11 So the whole thing is you wanna make sure you've got a dialed tubeless setup, um, in all temperatures and know it's reliable. Okay. So if- But the question still exists, right? Ri- uh, exactly, yeah. Yeah. 44:24 I guess, you know, the, the... my point in bringing that up is that in those situations you just might be screwed. You might have no way to fix that. And- Okay... um, and this gets into kind of the second part of this. 44:36 You know, you definitely wanna bring a tube, but you don't wanna rely on that tube to fix your flat. Okay. 44:43 And the reason why I say that is because, like for me, I know that tandem has been ridden on the beach a ton, and on our beaches we got dune grass, which has spikes in it. Yeah. 44:52 So I know [laughs] that tire is just full of spikes. It's riddled every fricking knob you've ridden through. Yeah. And if I put a tube in there, that tube would be punctured almost instantaneously- Yeah... 45:05 and would be worthless. Right. So, you know, now you're in a situation where y- your tube's flat, your tire's flat, your tubeless setup is blown. 45:14 So what it's better to do is try to stay tubeless and avoid the tire or the tube un- until you absolutely have to because what's gonna happen is if you, if you know you've been riding through prickly stuff, you're gonna have to check the inside of that casing, the entire tire, [laughs] 45:31 to make sure there's no prickly things going in there. 45:33 What- So you're gonna be like feeling around inside there with the like the sealant colored casing in the middle of winter, and your hands are gonna be freezing and- Yep, yeah... 45:42 it's gonna be one nasty- You're gonna feel like 12 years old again- [laughs]... with your door shut hoping your mom doesn't come in. [laughs] Yeah, exactly. It's okay. It's gonna be disgusting. 45:50 Just gonna run with that visual. [laughs] And, and maybe you find something sharp like, "Oh, there's a razor blade." Yeah. "Oh, shit." Yeah. You know? Right. Yeah. Shoot, yes. Not good. So- Okay... 45:57 yeah, so you don't wanna do that. So the... I guess the thing is, make sure you've got enough sealant in your tires. That's kind of just a maintenance thing. Yep. A lot of us just think, "It's working, it's great. 46:07 I'm never gonna have to do it." But no, shake your tires, make sure you can hear s- uh, sealant sloshing around. Okay. If you can't, add more sealant in. That will prevent this entire flat situation from coming up. 46:17 Right. So just stay on top of your build there. 46:19 But if you need to, let's say you get a, get a hole and it spurts out sealant, or you haven't checked your sealant in a long time, you're just not prone to remember to do that type of thing- Right... 46:28 keep sealant in your frame bag or whatever. You know, like those little, I think they're like two ounce bottles. Oh, you don't have to throw the whole fricking motor oil bottle in there? No, no, no. All right. 46:38 Yeah, you just do... Like, for a fat bike tire, maybe throw in two of those two ounce bottles. Yep, and- Um, and a valve core... you'll also need a valve core tool. Yep, don't wanna forget that. Jeez, oh, Pete. 46:48 Uh, now I need a, a bigger frame bag to get all this shit in there. [laughs] Holy cow. They're not that big. Yeah. But, but, um- So add sealant out on the trail? Po- potentially, yeah. 46:59 If you, if you think you're low on sealant, that could be a really good way to go. Start to put some air into it, assess where, like, the leak is. Yeah. Get that to the bottom of the tire- Okay... 47:08 so the sealant's kinda pooled on top of it, and let the sealant clog it up. Okay. Now, if you think you've got too big a hole for the sealant to take care of it, 47:17 then what you wanna do is you wanna end up using a tire plug. And I'm blanking on the name of the company that I really wish I could remember. These are the Bacon Strips. Exactly. Okay. 47:27 Um, I think Genuine Inflation, I think Problem Solvers also make them. I will put the name of this company that I'm trying to remember into the show notes. Okay. 47:35 Um, but there's, there's a variety of these products where they have like this little, like, capsule thing, and what you do is you unscrew it, and then one part of it is the applicator, which is essentially like... 47:47 It almost looks like a, like a, a, um... It's like a fork or a trident on this like little, like end of this nail, needle type thing. Okay. 47:56 Um, and then you've got sort of this cup that has these like little strips of what they look like is bacon. That's how normally they're referred to. These kinda like these fibrous long rubber things. Okay. 48:07 And what you do is you kinda use the fork, you know, put the bacon on the end of it, and then you shove it into your tire so that you've got kinda this little tail sticking out of your tire, and you got a tail to the inside of your tire. 48:19 And normally those Bacon Strips will fill up pretty good sized holes in your tire and make it so that, you know, the s- the holes are small enough that need to be sealed up that your sealant can do it. Okay. 48:30 And you might wanna trim those off so they're not like, you know, super long. Right. But that's, that can be a permanent solution. You know, if- Yeah... 48:38 as, as soon, as long as it's not some gargantuan hole, um, that can basically be a good long-term permanent solution that you don't have to worry about, you know, replacing your tire for. 48:48 I'm gonna shoot out an email to my wife here to remind me when I get home this evening I need to put a, a, um, valve, uh, core tool in my frame bag, along with a little bottle of sealant, 'cause I don't wanna provide my own, and some bacon. 49:02 YesAnd that way- I'm sure she'll appreciate getting that little- Totally, yes... like, yeah, remind me about this Yes... and that. Right. Yeah. And that way I can answer the question of what happens if I flat. 49:13 Yeah, 'cause what... I mean, basically if those two things fail- Right... you know, the sealant and then your bacon strips- Yeah... 49:20 they don't, they don't get it for you, then you gotta put the tube in, you gotta make sure all your prickly stuff's out of your tire- Sure... and then you c- might be able to reliably get home. 49:28 Would the first thing to do just to try to ja- pump as much air as you can in it? Well, you, you do that and then you kind of assess, oh, okay, you know- Okay... 49:37 and, and you might shake the tire- This is where it's happening... yeah, and be like, oh, okay, you know, my sealant isn't able to clog this. Yeah. 49:43 Now, is it because I don't have enough sealant or is it because the hole's so big? Okay. Then you figure out, okay, do I put more sealant in or do I do the plug or do I do both? Sure. 49:50 And then you try f- you know, filling it up again and, you know, and, and if that doesn't work, then, you know, take a drink. Gotcha. Get kind of pissed with the world. Right. Find your place in the world, 50:02 put a tube in there after cleaning out your tire. Right. Yeah. Uh, and then it's, uh, "Thanks, Jeff." And we wanna say, "No, thank you, Jeff." 50:12 [laughs] Um, when we get back from listening to more of this music that makes me wanna dance, we're gonna go across the pond to Wisconsin. 50:20 [upbeat music] Feel like playing ping pong. 50:43 [laughs] Yeah, it's the, the pigeons are inspiring me. Jeez, o- ping- Yeah, it's good stuff. Yeah. So, uh, man, we're way deep into this podcast, number 30, and we've got an email from a friend of ours over in Wisconsin. 50:56 His name is Doug. And bottom line is he was like, "Hey, can we talk lights?" That's right. He was the roadie, yep. Yeah. He's a roadie that recently converted to riding his bike in- Cheers... six-degree weather. 51:07 Yeah, Doug. Welcome to the dark side. Yes. Rule number five, you've arrived. 51:11 Um, no, Doug was like, "Hey," um, he's listened to all the podcasts and he was wondering if we could discuss lights or riding at night, and I don't know if that's something- I think-... that we've talked about or no? 51:23 No, I think this is another thing where we might've made passing mention, but I think that's about it. Yeah. Um, but- And I, and I'm, I guess I will say at the get-go that we are- Yeah... not, like, um, 51:32 we are not the, the fountain of all things lights. You know, if you, if you really wanna know about lights, um, go read a 24-hour- Oh, yeah... you know, race forum- Right. Yeah... and you're gonna learn about lights. 51:46 Yeah. And, like- Yeah... all the good stuff to know about lights. It's a 12,000 lumen light. Yeah, or, you know, Generator Hub World or something like that. There's, there's a lot more extensive... 51:56 This is more focused on how you and I have used lights. Right. Which, which is typically, you know, we're kind of just finished out the time of year, I hope finished out the time of year, where we had such short days. 52:08 You're trying to get out after work during the weekdays. Yeah. You know, and, and y- you may start out in the light, but you're gonna finish in the dark- Sure... 52:16 or you may not get out there until, you know, it's already a half hour, 45 minutes [laughs] after, you know, sunset. Right. Right. You know, you're, you're just getting out for a ride. Yeah. So, 52:25 in that scenario, we're looking at, you know, typically two-hour-ish ride or two-hour runtime for your lights. Yeah. 52:32 And- Well, he also, uh, uh, before you talk about runtime, but he also was, like, asking about, hey, bars or helmet. That, that- Yep... whole conundrum right there, too. Oh, yeah. 52:41 And runtime on your battery, so, um, what, what do you run? Uh, I run kind of a... It's not a real modern setup. I mean, l- light, first off, I guess just to say light technology is evolving so fast- Right... 52:56 that whatever light you got last year is out of date. Now, I run lights that are, like, three [laughs] or four years old. Sure. You know? 53:05 And, you know, I just run a couple of them, and then on top of it, you know, like this year we've been lucky. We've had snow. As soon as you got snow, you don't need as good of lights. Mm-hmm. 53:15 Like, as far as, like, the amount of, you know, lumen output and, like, how many, you know, how much- Sure... how much light it's actually putting out. Right. Because, you know, snow reflects light super well. 53:24 It shows in, in those kind of conditions that, you know, you c- a lot of times you can get shadows and stuff, and then you can see, like, texture to the snow fairly well and stuff without that much light. 53:33 You know, it, it's not that bad to ride with a lesser light in the winter. No, and m- pro- you, you probably... Well, you probably might be. You might be with some other guys riding- Mm-hmm... 53:46 who are providing just as, who, who are providing light, too, that also is reflective- Yeah... for your surrounding area. Yeah, and you got, like, you know, the conga line of fat bikes going through the woods- Sure... 53:56 and you're all not going that fast- Right... 'cause you're riding through snow. In fact, I've often turned mine off. Yeah, and it's, that's an amazing experience. It's so cool, you know? Yeah. Yeah. 54:03 I'll let these guys provide me light and save my battery. Yeah. Right. So, so I guess- You know-... you know, where I'm going with all this is that, you know, if you're riding with snow, 54:12 don't expect it to need as many lumens as when you're riding it the rest of the time of year. 54:17 So in other words, y- you know, if you've got multiple settings on your light and you normally ride, like, the medium or high setting 'cause you're riding on trails, you can back it off. Go low. Yeah. 54:26 I mean, I generally run my, the lowest setting on my lights because- So do I... in the colder temperatures, the battery doesn't last as long. Yep. So that kind of brings up a whole nother piece. 54:36 You know, it's like y- you know, you can run at lower power, you get more battery life, but you also wanna keep the battery warm. 54:42 And I've had really good success with any of the lights where the battery is combined with the light head, because the light head typically puts off a lot of heat, and that kind of keeps the battery a lot warmer than it would be otherwise. 54:52 As opposed to the light that has a cable that's attached to a separate battery. Correct. Okay. Now, with the separate battery, if you keep that battery someplace warm, then... 55:02 or more sheltered-Then you're gonna get better battery life The battery will produce a little bit of heat Yeah, the battery will produce a little bit of heat. 55:10 You know, you- it's like, like a lot of times what I'll end up doing is I'll try to keep the battery warm right up until I go out on the ride. Okay So, you know, I'll, I'll not keep it on my car if I'm driving someplace. 55:21 You know, I'll keep it inside my car. Sure You know, I'll make sure it was inside the house before that. 55:26 You know, the, you know, if you, if you can do that kind of stuff and make sure the battery's fairly warm, you're gonna get better life when you're out there- Okay... especially if you shelter it someplace. 55:33 So, like- Gas tank... gas tank, if you throw it in your frame bag. You know, if, you know, you could put it in like a sock or something to kind of insulate it a little bit- Right... and throw it into one of those things. 55:44 Right So, you're keeping the wind off of it, you got some insulation, it'll improve your battery life. That's what I do with my phone now. I'm putting it in a ski glove- Yeah, yeah... 55:52 and putting it in a frame bag or in my back pocket. Yeah. I mean, it's the same concept. 55:55 Same thing with the battery You know, just, you, it's a lithium ion battery, and, you know, s- they, some formulations of those do better than others in cold, but in general, the more normal r- room temperature-ish you can keep it, the better In my opinion, 56:10 what I... 'Cause I ride two lights, and I can run one... In fact, I ran one the other day. I put the other one in my back pocket to keep it warm. I ran just one light on low, and it was fine. 56:21 But I've never felt the need to put it on my helmet except for one time, but then on my helmet, the weight distribution got- [laughs]... all kind of funky on it. Yeah 'Cause it's strapped, the battery's strapped- Yep... 56:34 to you, or it's tr- it's, the cable's running down into your coat pocket. 56:36 But even the weight of those, of that light or those lights that are up there really screwed up with how my helmet was, like, fitting, and it was kind of a, it was clip the fuck. 56:46 Yeah, you, you might have to experiment a little bit to get a setup that you like. I didn't like it, so I stopped doing it Yeah. 56:51 N- now, if you are on tight trails, having both a handlebar light and a h- a helmet light can be really beneficial. Right The, the reason why is kind of twofold. Um, you know, with a helmet light, you can obviously... 57:05 Like, if, if you're d- doing correct steering technique, you are looking where you are riding to- Right... which also means that your headlamp is gonna be pointed to where you're going to. 57:16 Your handlebars aren't necessarily going to be pointed that direction. 57:19 Totally, yeah So, if, if you got a tight and twisty trail, having something on your helmet can be way safer and w- way more illuminating, you know, than it would be on your bars. [laughs] Yes. Now, that said, um, 57:33 it's kind of nice to also have them on your bars because when you've got them at the two different heights, you can, y- it then kind of, it... A lot of times it's easier to read the texture of the trail. 57:43 Sometimes if you have light just coming from one source, everything looks kind of flat depending on what your conditions are, and it can be a little bit harder to tell the texture. 57:51 Most of the time with snow, that's not the case 'cause you got this nice, nice white consistent surface, so texture shows up pretty well. Mm-hmm But there's sometimes that, you know, that's entirely wrong. 58:02 So, you know, it's like [laughs] having that extra contrast between having a light up high and a light a little lower can help out a lot. 58:08 Gotcha Um, so you know, I mean, the helmet light, I'm all for it, but in general, I find it easier to keep, you know, my lights warm and stuff, and I f- just, I just run a handlebar setup- Yeah... in the winter. Yeah. 58:22 If I'm doing trail riding, I'll, I'll go for a more intense setup. 58:25 Now, what have you found, and maybe he was asking this, maybe he was trying to get to this too, but what is an appropriate amount of maximum lumen on a light for a- you? Uh, I don't re- Like- If I remember correctly, 58:43 my, you know, my primary light is something, like, I think it's max is out at, like, 1,200 lumens. Okay But when I'm running it, it's more like 400 lumens. 58:53 Yeah And then my second light, 'cause I'll, I'll typically always run two because I wanna have some redundancy if I'm riding at night and it's winter and cold- Mm-hmm... and I'm out in the middle of nowhere. 59:05 So, my second light, I think it's, it's rated as like a 4 or 500 lumen light- Mm-hmm... but then it's like in low mode it's like 250. 59:14 Mm-hmm So, um, you know, I can run just one of those on the low setting and it's totally fine. It's not ideal, but it's totally fine. So I- Totally fine, yeah... yeah, I kind of put those at your bare minimums. 59:26 Yeah, that's right You know, like, the 250 to 400 lumens, and you know, if, that'll get you two and a half hours of runtime or whatever. Mm-hmm. That's a good setup. That's- I mean, it's, it's, it's an adequate setup. 59:37 It works- Not a great setup... it, that's what works for me though, too. Yeah I've got a 750 and a 500 and I run them on low, and I run one on low and maybe take the other one off, but it's totally okay. Yeah. 59:47 Yep I mean, it'd be nice to have 1,500 lumens out there just to wah, you know? Heck yeah. But I don't, you don't need it, and it's, costs an arm and a leg Yeah, y- you know, and that's the thing, you don't... 59:57 The great part about riding in the winter is you don't have to get that upset, obsessed about, like, your light setup. If you time it with the moon No, yeah. Yeah Sometimes you don't even need them Yeah, totally. 1:00:06 Or, you know, it's like, [laughs] you know, some of the best places to ride around here, you know, you're, you got factory lights or the airport or- Right... whatever, you know? 1:00:14 And it's like you get reflected light off of clouds- Sure... and you don't even- Yeah... really need a light. Right. Oh, look, the casino's open tonight [laughs] So that's our, that's our- So that's lights... 1:00:22 that's our d- light discussion, yeah. Yep Um, I think we should talk about one more thing, and then I gotta get back home. Frozen eyeballs? Sure, let's do frozen eyeballs. [laughs] So- So... 1:00:37 uh, I can't remember the guy's, I mean, I could look up the guy's name. Do you remember his name by i- I don't remember it off the top of my head, but I might be able to find it- Well, check it out-... 1:00:44 very, very quickly... and I'll just kind of talk about it, yeah. So, Patrick. Uh, we got Patrick. Patrick. Emailed us about, um, he, he's got glasses, um, wears goggles, they fog up, blah, blah, blah. Any solutions? 1:00:56 I just- Yeah, he, yeah, he, I mean, pr- you want some pr- a, a prescription setup. Yeah You know? I was like, "I don't know. I have... I don't know" I'm lucky I got good eyesight Yeah, so do I. 1:01:06 I-I don't need those things in my face. But, um, I, I liked your, your-- Well, tell, what, what was your response, though? So- You went into a different world. 1:01:16 Well, so, well, what he wa- he was asking about is you've got some of the helmets like the- Oh, yeah. That's right... Kask Lifestyle or the Giro Air Attack- Yeah... 1:01:25 um, that have got an integrated, like, you know, like, visor. You know, like, you know, the glasses are integrated into the helmet. Sure. And he was wondering about some sort of setup like that. 1:01:35 And I mean, that, that totally would be-- I mean, that could be great. Um, I don't have any first-hand experience with that, though, so I can't really speak to those. 1:01:42 Most of those, though, um, you're gonna probably get called a dork by your fellow riders because they're, like, roadie helmets that are like, I mean, they're aero helmets. So- I saw one at the Singlespeed Showdown. 1:01:55 The guy had one on, and I was like- Yeah... "Oh, my gosh." Yeah. I mean, um- "This guy is different." Yeah. I mean, it's like, I mean, it [laughs] you look like full pro, you know, like, roadie dork- Right... 1:02:06 wearing them. However- Yeah... they're pretty darn good helmets for the winter because they have lower ventilation, so you know, it's, they keep your head a little warmer. Sure. 1:02:15 You know, I can see where, like, the visor thing could work pretty darn good- Right... as long as you're not getting snow because you got no visor over the top or whatever. You know what I'm saying? Like- Yeah. Yeah... 1:02:25 it's just, like, the glasses are just kinda, like, exposed, so there's, like, nothing to knock down the precipitation landing on your lenses and making them all wet and nasty. Mm-hmm. Yeah. 1:02:32 So you know, in that type of situation, you don't have the versatility of, like, having a brim, you know, like, like, on, like, some sort of cycling-ish hat- Right... 1:02:42 and then wearing sunglasses underneath it, where you kinda have a little bit of ledge to cover it, or you got a visor and a helmet. Right. So you know, those are, those are solutions. 1:02:53 But another option that I tossed out there is in the cross-country ski world, they have, I don't know what you wanna call them. They're, like, almost like half goggles. 1:03:02 They're-- It's, it's a more full coverage sunglass that typically is, like, enclosed more so near the top. There can be vents and stuff like that. But it's a lot more coverage than just a traditional sunglass. 1:03:16 So you could wear a regular pair of prescription glasses under a lot of these. They- That's interesting that, that it's, in that sport, there's, like, an, a technical need for it. 1:03:28 Well- But it hasn't slid over to- Like, like-... fat bike world yet... like, a lot of different aspects of cross-country skiing, you know, there's crossover to the fat bike world. Yeah. 1:03:35 You know, the cross-country skiers have been dealing with this for 50 years- Right... and have come up with solutions that we have yet to really employ. And I think that- Gotcha... 1:03:43 that looks like something that could potentially really fit these needs, 'cause, you know, you've got less fogging issues, 'cause you got more ventilation around it. 1:03:50 You've got a little more coverage for your face, which is good. Um, it gives you flexibility to use different helmets or whatever, um, you know, so being an independent thing from the helmet. So I just, you know- Yeah. 1:04:01 If, if people have e-experience or, you know, anything like that, I would love to hear about it. It seems like that could be a really good option. 1:04:07 Speaking about hearing about it, uh, not to, not to end the frozen eyeball conversation, but it was kind of a funny conversation. 1:04:13 If you need to get in touch with us or you want to get in touch with us or someone tells you to get in touch with us, you can do it through a Gmail, uh, which is, uh, fatcamppodcasters, plural, @gmail.com. 1:04:28 Uh, also, uh, we are, I think we're above 300 followers on Instagram. Oh, my goodness. We're celebrities. Which according to my students at school, um, is nothing. [laughs] Like, it was like, "You have 300 followers." 1:04:42 I was like, "Yeah, of, of which probably 100 are, like, some type of Spanish porn queen that follows us for no re-" They're a bot. Yeah. It's like, what the heck? Uh, we're on the Instagram as well, @fatcamppodcasters. 1:04:54 Check us out there. Um, and, uh, hey, we will respond to your emails. Yeah. We're better about responding to the emails than we are talking about the emails on this show. Exactly. 1:05:03 But we're gonna try to be better about talking about the emails on the show. And you might get an email from me that says, "I will let Ken know that they need to respond to you." Um, what else you got? Anything? 1:05:16 I don't think so. I think that closes us out. Yeah. Um, I think you'll be grooming tomorrow. Heck yeah. Yeah. Gonna be making some more trail magic. So happy New Year to everybody, 2018. 1:05:27 We'll be back in February with another edition of Fat Camp about technical aspects of fat and plus biking, and, and we might talk about grooming and tires. I, I think that's pretty much a given. Excellent. Yeah. 1:05:38 Well, all right. Thanks, Ken. Cheers. Cheers. [upbeat music] Feeling kinda crazy. Things are looking hazy. Tell that you can feel me. 1:05:56 I can see a little twinkle in your eye. Thank you for listening. The music we are using on today's show is Pigeons Playing Ping Pong, and it's the song titled "Time to Ride." 1:06:06 You can find all our shows at fatbike.com, including notes for today's show. [singing] If you feel you're overflowing, throw your hands straight up through the sky. If your mind's exploding, 1:06:24 well, won't you grab yourself a seat. It's time to ride. It's time to ride. Lord knows it's time to ride. 1:06:36 [upbeat music]
