Transcript 0:00 [upbeat rock music] Welcome to Fat Camp Show number 33 for sometime around mid-July 2018. 0:18 Fatbike.com presents Fat Camp, a more or less monthly podcast covering different technical aspects of fat and plus bikes. Look for all our shows at fat-bike.com/radio or subscribe to our feed on iTunes. 0:31 [upbeat rock music] All right, some killer tunes from, uh, our friend Ken. Welcome to Fat Camp number 33. It has been quite some time, folks. 0:48 Yeah, we've been on a little bit of a Fat Camp sabbatical for a while. Well put. Uh, way more than a s- way more sabbatical than hiatus, I would say. Yes, exactly. Exactly. Definitely. 0:59 We had a great interview, uh, last month with, um- Adam Miller... Y Cycles. Yeah. Yep. Adam was great. And, uh, I guess we're gonna call that Fat Camp 32. I mean- I think we did... I think I talked two minutes maybe. 1:13 [laughs] That's okay. No, it was so important, your contributions, man. Yeah. But, hey, thanks for the continued emails, thanks for the messages on the Instagram about, "Where you guys been?" Blah, blah, blah. 1:23 We're here. Um, things get, things get busy and things happen and life happens, and we're like, "Hey, we forgot to record." [laughs] Mostly 'cause we've been riding our bikes too much. 1:34 Yep, that's a good excuse to end up having. Yeah. Um, yeah, I mean, 'cause we kinda kicked it off North Carolina. Yeah. That, that was in our spring. I think last, last we spoke was winter. 1:44 Yeah, we were, like, getting psyched to go to North Carolina. Right, exactly. So- And we both- So we did... we both wind- ended up going to Brevard over our spring break, which is, like, right at the end of March. Yep. 1:54 Um- Wow, that was a long time ago. Yeah, it was. Yeah. It really was. But it was awesome. Yeah. Um, all sorts of, I mean, just great riding down there. Yep, amazing riding. Um, good friends, good riding. Good food. 2:06 You know, good, good conditions. It w- looked like it was gonna be, like, biblical rain before we go. Right, right. And then it ended up being, like, one of the nicest weather years we've had out of the last three. 2:13 Yeah, yeah. So a little bit of rundown on what's gonna happen, and we're gonna talk about that trip just a l- just a, just a brief amount. You know how s- it won't be long. Just, yeah, we're short-winded. 2:23 Um, w- we're gonna get into North Carolina real quick. We're gonna go right back to that. Then we're gonna talk about a coast to coast, and we're not talking Jersey to California, but we'll get into that. 2:31 Um, someone's gonna go out to Oregon in two weeks, less than two weeks probably, and do the Oregon Timber Tra- Timber Trail. We're gonna talk about that. 2:39 A little bit of fork flex for all you dorks out there, which this is a podcast about technical aspects of fat and plus bikes, so we're definitely gonna have some geekitude in there. 2:50 And then we just got some new stuff that we're gonna talk about that's happened since Sea Otter, that's happened since May or, or s- since June. Um, we're gonna get into that. Uh, so it should be a full, regular old 3:02 real short- Action-packed... action-packed [laughs], uh, Fat Camp podcast. Remember those tunes you heard at the beginning? Here they are again, ladies and gentlemen. One more time. We're gonna take a break. 3:12 We'll be right back with you. 3:14 [upbeat rock music] Hey, we're back with some killer tunes again, and we're gonna talk real quick about, uh, long time ago we went to North Carolina and we figured some things out. 3:33 Yeah. No, so going into that, you had an epiphany about kids' bike tires. Right. Um, I bought my oldest daughter, she's 13, a 26 x 3 Jamis Eden. We've talked about it before I think. Yeah. 3:48 I think we, I'm pretty sure we did. Anyways, it's a 26-inch- Rad bike... it's a 26-inch plus bike. Um, so the, that one w- that kid was all set up, but the other kid still was r- on this 24 x 2 inch tire. 4:00 Yeah, you d- you weren't able to get a, like... You weren't able to get a bike that would be worthy of, like, shelling out money for- Right... that would fit her. Right. You know? 4:08 'Cause she's gonna grow into the next, next bike. Yeah, she's just about to the 26 x 3. So what Ken and I were thinking about was like, "Hey, are there any 4:15 bigger tires for 24-inch, for kids bikes, for 24-inch bikes or- Well-... 20-inch bikes... 4:20 and most kids bikes have amazing amounts of clearance on them, because they're, they're designed, like, so chain stays will be more similar in length to an adult-sized bike. You know, it's like the... 4:30 So you get these big, big spacing areas, and there's some good tires starting to become available. So what we, what he found out was we could score a 24 x 2.6 inch Kenda Slant, which is perfect for a kids bike. Yeah. 4:45 And it fit with ample clearance. Yeah, you, you basically, like, made the tire about 50% wider. Yeah. And it's like, you know, it seems like she just absolutely loves it. 4:56 The only thing she noticed is how much more fun she was having on it. Yeah. She, it didn't like- Yeah. And kids aren't, kids aren't like, "Well, this, Dad, this rolls kinda slow, you know? 5:04 I notice the, uh, the increased mass on my wheel-" [laughs] "... to try to, to accelerate the bike." All she noticed was that she was having way more fun. Yeah. And this isn't stuff in Dupont and Pisgah. 5:15 This, this is a kid that's- Yep... just doing some flowy stuff. Who's only ridden in Michigan pretty much before this. Right. So, you know, new experiences- Yeah... down there as far as the terrain. Right. 5:23 So when you go for a mile downhill and she's just- [laughs]... laughing at the end, it's 'cause she didn't screw up anything 'cause she had confidence of these t- 24 x 2.6 tires. Yeah, some big fatty tires. 5:32 The same things that we love about them, kids love about them. 5:35 So our s- unsolicited advice to any person that li- is, uh, listening right now that has kids and kids bikes for their kids is to, hey, go to your local bike shop, see if they can get a fatter tire for that thing in the same wheel. 5:48 Yeah, see if it'll fit. In the same diameter, yeah. Yep. And they'll have way more fun, and you'll have more fun. And i- if your kids are having more fun and you're having more fun, then life is good. 5:56 Everybody has more fun. Exactly. 5:58 Um, speaking of plus bikes, though, uh, previous trip to North Carolina t- I took down a rigid, a steel rigid hard tail-That's not right With a Bluto With a Bluto, right, so it wasn't steel rigid. 6:11 I took a h- Sorry, I'm pouring a beer right now [laughs] I took a hardtail down to Pisgah with a Bluto on the front, and it was okay. Um, I consider myself an okay skilled rider, and it just kinda made things sketchy. 6:24 So this year- Yeah... I took my 29 plus Salsa Deadwood that I've spoken about on a previous podcast down to Pisgah, DuPont, and fell in love with it, man. It was, it was amazing. 6:37 [laughs] It's the perfect amount of suspension I needed. 6:40 It was, the geometry is perfect for that bike, and I just, I'm really con- A- and I, we, we get some emails or messages on Instagram like, "Hey, talk more about the Salsa Deadwood 29 plus." Uh, 6:54 I'm a huge fan in my, on my local trails, i- at my correct local trails. Not on flowy stuff- [laughs]... but, you know, there's certain trails- Well, even the flowy stuff, a full suspension bike can be fun. Right. Right. 7:04 And, um, 'cause, 'cause the one thing you haven't mentioned is not only is it full suspension, but there's the dropper. The dropper post, exactly. 7:12 So- Yeah, the dropper's another key piece of technology you've added to your quiver. Right, so a not only a full suspension, a dropper post which is a whole new, it's a whole new button to push on the- Yeah... uh, 7:24 game controller, you know? Well, you gotta train your mind as far as when it's a good time to use it- Yep... and when it's not. So you get efficient that way, and you don't have to think about it. You just ride. Right. 7:33 You know, that's a big piece. I'm still thinking about it, though- But-... 'cause I don't ride it enough. But y- yeah, and that's, and that's the thing. 7:38 And then the other piece is there's places in the trail where you can kinda leverage it. Right. You know? 7:43 Um, uh, because, you know, it allows you to lean the bike over more, so if you've got like, you know, you gotta get out of the way of a tree, you might be able to get more out of the way because y- you know, you got, you're able to move the bike more. 7:52 Right. Or you're hopping over stuff, so it's like you can kinda, you know, pop over stuff a little more easily, and the bike doesn't get in the way. 7:59 You know, or it just, you know, just so much easier to move on the bike, get low on the bike. Right You know? Well, and even this winter there were times when I wanted a dropper post on my fat bike. Yeah. 8:09 And a good friend of ours, Mike Peterson, shout out to Mike down in, down in Ludington. W- recently- Yeah... picked up a dropper post for his fat bike that he rides in the summer. Yep, he got an E13. 8:20 Uh, he and I talked actually for him about about a v- beforehand. I'm gonna be curious to see how it works for him. Is that a- But- Is that a relatively good post? It's, it's one of the cheaper options. Okay. 8:30 So checking the right box. Yep. Um, it's purely mechanical, if I remember correctly. Okay. Um, it, it doesn't ha- it doesn't have, like, an infinite adjust. 8:38 It's got a couple of presets 'cause it's got, like, a pin or something that kinda goes in there. So it's got a mechanical closure instead of, like, a, you know, a hydraulic or, you know, some other type of thing. Okay. 8:48 So very simple, you know, sort of- Yeah, but you either want it up or you want it down, don't you, basically? 8:52 I mean, it can be nice to end up being in one of the middle spots, and it's, the thing that's nice about those preset ones is that it's easier to find the middle spots you like on those versus the infinite ones because the infinite ones, you're just kinda like, "Okay, I know I'm sort of in the middle, and it feels all right." 9:08 Right. "And then I might have to adjust it again." Whereas, you know, you've only got, like, one or two middle positions on a post like that. Right. 9:14 Um, the other mechanical thing on it is it doe- it's not got an, like, an air chamber. It's got just a traditional metal spring. Okay. 9:20 So it's a little on the heftier side, but, um, there's, there, it should have very good cold weather performance. He wants to end up using it year-round, which I'm gonna be very jealous of. Right. 9:29 Um, and, you know, there's no oil to thicken up and get slow. There's no seals to get really hard in the cold and, you know, make them suck. 9:37 So there's very little to go wrong, and I think it hopefully will work real well for him. Maybe something to think about for, um, 9:43 the, uh, fat bikers out there that are gonna ride in the winter and want a dropper post because- Yep... I've, I've, I wanted one. Um, 9:50 the other thing that we kinda start, you kinda started a long time ago and continued in North Carolina. Well, like, maybe a year-ish ago. Right. Yeah. And are continuing even now are- Yeah, 2.6 inch tires... 10:02 a study of 2.6 inch tires. Which we have, we have, uh, planted our petard or whatever the term is for it in the sand. That 2.6 is in the plus category now if you're gonna run bikes. Yeah. Oh, yes. Yes, for sure. Yeah. 10:13 [laughs] Right. I don't really give a crap about the categories. It's just, it- What's a petard? Isn't it one of those, I don't know, it's like, I wanna say it was like the- God, I thought you were-... flagpole thing... 10:24 I thought you were making fun of, like- I think it's petard, not... But I might be wrong. I don't know. Oh. Okay. But whatever. [laughs] We'll just say petard. Yeah. [laughs] Yeah. Geez. 10:31 This isn't, like, vocabulary hour by Ken in Amy. Well, it just threw me off, you know? I was like, "What? Whoa, there's a word I don't know," you know? No, so it was, I was saying that 2.6 inch tires are- Okay... 10:39 I still consider them plus tires because, you know- Yes... traditional tires, you can never get this size, and this is totally, like, a new thing, and I love 'em. 10:46 Um- So what ha- So over a year ago you started riding them? Yeah, I started riding the Schwalbe Nobby Nic, and then, um, earlier this spring I got on a Maxxis Rekon 2.6. Okay. 10:57 Um, and then I got a pair of the Vittoria- Mezcalinis or Mezcalanis or- Yeah, I apologize. Yeah, I'm not gonna be able to say the name any better. I'll find out. Keep talking. Yep. 11:06 Um, and then most recently I got a pair of the Bontrager XR2s, and what I'm gonna do is, I don't wanna talk too much about this other than to say all of them are awesome tires. But- This one is replacing, like, Chupara? 11:18 Yeah. They, they, the Bontrager XR2 is replacing the Chupacabra. It looks v- basically the same tread pattern. It's just- Mezcal. Vittoria Mezcal. Yes. Thank you. M-E-Z-C- Yep... Mezcal, let's just put it that way. 11:30 So I've been riding these a bunch. Yeah. Um, you know, they haven't totally replaced my plus tires. I've been bouncing around a lot, but they're, they're all pretty rad tires, and they're... 11:39 I- I've been liking the experience at 2.6, so I'm gonna be doing an article on Fat Bike, um, about all that, 11:48 uh, hopefully soon, but maybe not 'cause there might be some [laughs] like, logistics that get in the way of getting that done. 11:53 Well, what we're finding out about 2.6 inch tires, and we didn't say this previously, is that they will fit on standard forks, right? Yeah. Yeah, th- you can squeeze them in a whole bunch of stuff. 12:02 So I, I'm gonna put, um, a 2.6 on front of my rigid, or my s-Single speed. Yep. And I'm gonna throw a pair of... I, I'm gonna throw not a pair. I'm gonna throw a 2.6 on my wife's bike, which is a RockShox, uh, Reba. 12:17 She's got a Reba, yeah. Yeah. Yep. And there's plenty of clearance on a narrower rim. Yeah. Um- Yep. And, you know, is your tire shape perfect? No, but it still gives you a little bit bigger p- footprint to work with. 12:28 Right. You know, so it's like, yeah, the thing's gonna fold over and stuff, but it's just... It's if you got the clearance, it might make sense, you know? Gotcha. So it's... 12:36 And it's not drastically different riding than a mountain bike, you know, tire. It just, it gives you all of the characteristics that you like about plus tires and fat bike tires. 12:44 I think 2.6 inch tires are like Peter Sagan. Like what? Well, he, he's, he's a good all-arounder. Ah, yeah. So- You know, he can climb. Yeah. [laughs] He can sprint. You know? He can sit in the pack. Yep. 12:56 You know, it's not a plus tire, but it's not a skinny tire, so- Yep... it's kind of the in-between kind of thing that you can just- It can do it all... it can do it all, exactly. Um, 13:05 you ran into some good luck with Minions? Yeah. I just, I mean, I kind of [laughs] i- it surprises me, like when I'm w- down in North Carolina, I ran a Minion, uh, uh, DH, uh, F on the front. Yep. 13:20 Um, and that was oh, I think three inch. I don't know if I said that or not, but I really enjoyed it. 13:25 I swapped out for a different tire for a while, while I was down there and just didn't have nearly as much fun in Pisgah. It's like the, that big old three-inch Minion, it's like it's got great side knobs. 13:36 It still rolls fairly well. 13:37 It's a little on the heavy side, but like with all the wet roots and rocks, and then you get into loamy sections, and then you get into, you know, like gravel road type stuff, it's just such a versatile tire. 13:46 I mean- So plus tires are still gonna be good no matter where you go then? Well, I wouldn't say that. I mean, there's, there's a time and a place where I wouldn't wanna end up running a plus tire. 13:54 Like if I lived down there year-round and I knew all the little secret lines you can pop off of and stuff like that- Okay... 13:59 and I was spending more time in the air, I probably wouldn't want a three-inch Minion on the front. Gotcha. But not knowing the trails and needing to kinda plow through stuff 'cause I'm just sight-reading it- Sure... 14:08 um, it's a pretty rad way to end up just getting rowdy. Yeah. Yeah. It's, it's, it's a really forgiving tire that just did everything right, so I was stoked about that. So when in doubt, run a Minion. 14:21 More tire talk from Ken and Andy. Yeah. This is kinda like Coffee Talk with Paul Baldwin. [laughs] Uh, and lastly, something that I have recently thrown into my CamelBak permanently 14:32 n- uh, irregardless of season, are tire plugs. Yep. Um- Good thing to have... I did the j... I went with the Genuine Innovations tire plugs, um, which have the inserter and the cap and everything. Yeah. 14:45 It's like a little pill bottle type thing. Right. Right. Yep. You got the- But there are-... the, the quote, unquote "bacon"- Right... which are the, the plugs themselves, these sticky fibery things. Yeah. 14:53 Not expensive addition- No... to your, to your, um, w- wherever you're storing your multi tool, you know? Throw it in there with- Yep... um... But there's other options though too. 15:02 And I think at one point in time we did a show talking about this and how if you're running tubeless tires, you're... 15:07 If you get a flat and it, the sealant doesn't take care of it, um, the first thing you should be doing is plugging that thing. We've talked about this. Yeah. 15:14 Or if, you know, it's really fricking cold and you wanna get that thing to seal as fast as possible, you should probably plug it. Just when in doubt, if your sealant isn't seeming- Right... like it might work. Yeah. 15:24 And, uh, um, uh, I'm trying out a new system for tire plugs. From who? 'Cause I've, I've used the Genuineflations. It's a great system. Um- Innovations, not Genuineflations. [laughs] Oh, yeah, yeah. 15:35 I hope I'm not saying it wrong now. Um- Anyway, what's the other... What's, what do you got? Um, so I'm using Dynaplug. Dynaplug. Yeah. And they make, um... 15:44 They've kinda like got an alternative where it's a little bit different than the Genuineflations, but most of theirs are kinda pill bottles, but they've got this- Right... 15:53 one, and this is the only company I think that's doing this for, um, inflation st- or the, these plugs, is they have a CO2 cartridge attached to it. Huh. 16:03 So what I like about this is, you know, normally if you use the Genuineflations, you're, you're gonna end up plugging the tire, and then you're gonna open up another hole in the tire, and you're gonna end up hooking up your CO2. 16:13 And then you gotta get back over to where you plugged it to try to get your sealant, you know, get down to the bottom where your sealant's gonna, you know, basically really now finish the plug job. Right. 16:21 And you can just lose some precious time there, whereas with these, you know, the Dynaplug one, you can just plug in and you shove the, like kind of the tip like way deep into your tire, open up the CO2. 16:33 So you have no hole on the tire. You never have to take out your valve core. No, exactly. 16:37 Ev- Like basically the one hole, you just plugged it and now you're starting to inject air into it, and then as you pull out the inflator, it leaves the plug in the tire. 16:46 So you're like sitting there right with where the plug is. You can get it down to the bottom so you can get the sealant to s- you know, kind of coagulate and put, you know, basically fill it all up. Right. 16:55 And you don't have like this, the deal where you have two holes, and now you just gotta close up one, and you gotta- Right... get to the other one to deal with it. 17:01 Based on my experience, it's always been way easier to clog one hole and fill it up and get it to coagulate- [laughs]... rather than two holes to get it to coagulate. [laughs] Oh, thanks, Andy, for bringing it on home. 17:10 Well, I wanted to make sure Gomez was approving of this show, you know, so- Yes. We, we keep earning our E rating... gotta drop the recycling tube. [laughs] Sorry, Tara. Yeah. All right. Anyway. Moving on from there. 17:21 Um- The next reason why we didn't end up recording podcasts for a while is- Right... we do the coast to coast. W- well, kind of. We- Kind of. Yeah. Right. 17:30 Um, Matt Acker of Salsa Fame and Grand Rapids Michigan Fame and the regional- The beard... regional bearded dude, um, put together a race that went from Lake Huron over to Lake Michigan. 17:43 Yeah, so all the way across the mitten. Gravel roads, forest roads, two tracks, maybe f- 10% pavement. Yeah. It's somewhere, yeah, 10 to 20% pavement I'd- Yeah... is what my guess was. Um, and so that was... 17:58 You had to sign up for that in May. Yep. Right? And that took place on a pretty nice weekend in May. It was, it was an awesome weekend. Yeah. 18:07 I was a participant and- Well, I was getting to that, but you beat me, beat me to the punch now. Sorry. I didn't mean to end up letting the cat out of the bag. So, well, [laughs] I was gonna- Damn it... 18:15 I was gonna try to dra- Since these podcasts are so short, I was gonna try to get some more minutes out of them by- [laughs]... you know, just drawing it out. 18:21 So a, a few locals were like hemming and hawing about signing up for this race. You know, it's in the, the i- inaugural Gravel Grinder across the state of Michigan, and our friend Kent was likeAh, what the hell? 18:35 I think the week before Well, y- y- You had been hemming and hawing I, I had been hemming and hawing because I hadn't gotten a lot of training miles in. Right. It's like we had a really, really, really late winter. 18:44 Right. So I mean, literally it was... The weekend I did two weeks before the race, I still was riding through patches of snow. Right. Um, and it wasn't necessarily on the course. 18:57 It was, like, out on doing forest service roads- Sure... and stuff like that. However, there was still snow two weeks before the race. Right. 19:04 And the course didn't open up until I think it was the weekend before the race. Yeah, 'cause Matt was out there reconning everything going, "Holy crap- Yeah... I hope we heat up soon." No, and I... 19:14 The longest ride I'd done before that was, like, I don't remember. It was, like, it was high 80s. Right. It wasn't that long a ride. So this ride was gonna be 210 plus. Yeah, I think it ended up being, like- You know? 19:24 ... 216 or something. Okay. Yeah. Well, w- the one I did was 216. [laughs] I think mine was longer than the race, but, uh, anyway, 200-plus miles, you know, across, across the state of Michigan, gravel roads. 19:37 Yeah, gravel. Yeah. The good part though is it kinda comes into our area, so it's like it comes into the Manistee National Forest- Right, exactly... 19:43 which, you know, it was awesome because that's the most difficult part and also the most beautiful part, and I was able to pre-ride it. So could you give us what kind of bike did you have? What was your bike set up? 19:54 And then kinda after the... How, what was your bike set up? Um, how'd the race, how'd the race ride, race- [laughs]... go? So- And, you know? Okay. So let me... 20:05 Just while I'm ta- thinking about it, because I, I feel like it's worth mentioning, I, I, I, I went into this just being like, "I don't even know if I can finish this. This is a really, really, really... 20:13 I've never ridden 200 miles before." [laughs] Yeah, your alternative plan was to, like, bike pack and then just ride to your house. Yeah, like, I'm gonna have a credit card so I can just stop wherever I want. Right. 20:21 Right. You know, just, it's like- Right... if the shit hits the fan, so be it. I can- Yeah... you know, I'll You can ride to my house the next day. Yeah, exactly. Right. Yeah. This is the... I can survive out here. 20:29 There's no problem. Right. So, um- That was the intention. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Right. Exact- 'cause I had no idea. I'm gonna go have fun, you know. Yeah. I'm gonna go. 20:36 Um, so I was riding a, it's a old 29er, uh, Ty mountain bike- Okay... with a Niner carbon fork. Okay. Um, this is back with, like, a straight one and an eighth inch steer tube, so it's a pretty old bike. 20:49 I wanna say it's probably pushing close to 10 years at this point. That is an, the 20-year-old bikes, yeah. Yeah. 20:54 So it, it normally it's my single speed, but then I was like, okay, I did the calculations and, like, my bottom bracket drop, I don't mean to be too big a dork, but it's, like, just about perfect. 21:02 You take your old 29er and you put on... I was running, uh, 700 by 44 mil tires. Okay. And my bottom bracket was actually, like, a little bit high compared to modern gravel bikes. Which is okay for that, yeah. 21:14 Well, but it, it's especially okay for me because I've got 180 mil crank arms. Oh, okay. So, you know, it was, like, dead on, perfect for me. Sweet. Um, so, you know, geometry was, like, really good. 21:25 Um, it's kind of a f- pretty fast handling bike. It's like a 71-degree head angle or whatever. Um- So- How'd you do water? Um, I'll... I, I had a top tube bag with a hydration bladder in it. Okay. 21:36 And then, um, I could fit two bottles in there also. Okay. So I can get... I don't wanna get into that much detail. Uh, I basically- [laughs] I, I had- Go ahead... 21:48 enough stuff from the, you know, like, when I started, you know, enough energy drink and I just planned on picking up water. It's like- Okay... at the first checkpoint, I ended up... 21:57 Like, I rolled in and I was like, I didn't see anybody I knew, so I was like, "Hey, anybody have any water?" 22:01 And, like, somebody gave me a gallon of water, and I, uh, had my bottles already pre, like, filled up with- Oh... the powder- Yeah, okay... so I was able to fill up. 22:08 I mean, it was like this, that was, like, my level of preparation. Okay. Um, it wasn't until later on that I actually was able [laughs] to take advantage of aid stations and stuff. Gotcha. 22:16 But, uh, the drop bar setup, that was- Yeah... like, talking about the bike, um, I'm using, it's a, it's a one bi setup. I've still got an old school kinda, like, Shimano freehub. I don't have an XD driver. Yeah. 22:28 So I ran, like, a 11-42 or 11-40 cassette. Okay. Like, 11 speed on the rear, like a SunRace or something. Okay. You know, nothing too chi-chi. Um, uh, disc brakes, which was re- you know- Yeah... 22:42 like, really, really, really nice. It was great setup. Compass Tires, uh, I don't remember how to pronounce it, but, like, the Sikloma Pass or something. It's a, it's a 700 by 44. Okay. 22:53 Compass Tires, if people don't know about them and they ride gravel, and you don't have to worry about the durability of your casing, are the most amazing effing tires in the entire world. Yes. They blow my mind. 23:03 I could go off for an entire podcast just about- So could Kevin... Compass Tires. Yeah, any- anybody who ends up getting on them tends to end up kinda falling in that ca- Gotcha... 23:11 uh, convert, you know, evangelist almost category. Okay. Um, 'cause I have seen the light, and it is Compass Tires- Gotcha... um, for my gravel riding. But moving onward. Anyway. Um, so I ended up having all that. 23:21 [laughs] Uh, I had a frame bag. I think I mentioned that. So I had, like, all my food with me, but- Not a full frame bag, though. No, no, just, like, the top portion. The top tube. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um, [laughs] 23:31 but I made a bunch of rice cakes and my, like, date walnut, like, balls or whatever and- Homemade Larabars. Yeah. Yeah. It's like I basically had it all sitting on my counter when I left- Okay... 'cause I was in a rush. 23:44 Yeah. And then I forgot my wallet. [laughs] Yeah, so- Really? [laughs] Yeah. So I basically just, you know, I had to bum... My, my dad drove me across the state. Gotcha. 23:53 And I, like, "Hey, Dad," you know, "Can I bum-" Can I borrow $20... "some money?" [laughs] Yeah. And picking up, like, energy bars at the gas station. [laughs] Right. Right. 24:02 So that was just kind of funny, but that all ended up working out great. Okay. Um, uh, so- Yeah, you weren't on the bike long enough to get sick of Clif Bars. [laughs] I did. I hardly ate any, but- Jesus Christ... 24:14 um, so the race went really well. Um, went out with the lead pack. Uh, after the first checkpoint at 50 miles-ish, um, it got whittled down. 24:25 There was probably 20, 30 of us, and then we just kinda got into this rolling section that was kinda muddy and started to separate out. 24:32 And unfortunately, [laughs] I dropped my sunglasses because I was trying to, uh, switch them, like, off- Yeah... 'cause it was getting muddy in my face and I couldn't see. 24:41 Uh, so I was trying to, like, put them on my helmet and I dropped them. So I got dropped out of the lead pack. And then, so I chased for the next 40, 50 miles- Right... 24:48 the lead pack and, like-I, but I would be counting it out. 24:52 I could see him on these gravel roads, and it'd like, it'd get down to like 20 seconds, and then he would get to a hilly part where they would go a little faster, and then it would like stretch out to over two minutes. 25:01 Gotcha. And then I'd like get back down to like 20 seconds, and it'd stretch out. So going into the next aid station, um, in what, Marion? Marion, yeah. Yeah. So I... 25:11 They were still in the, like, you know, the whatever you wanna call it, the aid or whatever the- Sure... you know, in the parking lot when I got there, and I left like basically a minute after them. Okay. 25:21 They let me catch back on. Oh. I rode with them for a little bit, but then it starts getting hilly. And, uh, first one guy, and w- that lead group was down to, I think, seven people. Huh. Might've been maybe six people. 25:34 Um, and in... I didn't think I was gonna be doing this well at all at this point. Right. So [laughs] I was just kind of blown away to end up being able to just like suck wheels and get, you know- [laughs]... 25:45 up that far, except for when I wasn't sucking wheels and having to like ride on my own for 4- 40 miles. Sure. But, uh, um, so then we got into the hills, one guy gets dropped, I get dropped. Um, I 25:59 just kind of start riding my own race because it's not that far from there until I get to the national forest. Well, and you know where you are, yeah. Exactly. Yeah. And I know what I can do in there. 26:08 It's like there's all sorts of stuff where it just gets technical and fast, and it's like... You know, I, I was riding narrow bars also. Mm-hmm. So I've got the, you know, a baller setup with... 26:19 It's kind of a, a neutral handling bike with these big fat tires compared to a lot of other people. Sure. And I could just bomb stuff on aero bars, or, um, the section like by the Pine River. Yeah. 26:31 It's, it's a two-track, but it's like really kind of got these mud pits and roots, and it's got big sand patches. 26:38 It's, it's like riding technical single track because you [laughs] th- there hardly ever are both lanes of that two-track good. Right. 26:46 You know, there's a lot of times where it's just one lane, and you gotta totally nail it. Right. And so, you know, able to ride that whole thing at full speed, you know, I was not in the aero bars [laughs] at that point. 26:55 That's just like full on. Um, I was running a, I think it's called a Cowchipper bar. Um, it's halfway between Salsa's really wide drop bar- Yeah... and then a more traditional- Okay... um, road bar. 27:10 So it's like, I don't know. If I got... Basically I got out in, you know, the drops. It was a fairly wide position. It was pretty similar to my mountain bike. Okay. 27:17 So, you know, I could basically rail through that stuff, no problem. Gotcha. And I'd ridden it a couple times this spring, so I really kind of knew what was coming and where I had to put the efforts in- Right... 27:26 and where I could flow. So just riding all that stuff through the national forest was amazing. Yeah. 27:30 And I caught Scott, who was kind of, uh, Scott Quiring, who was blowing up at that point 'cause he hadn't brought enough water. That was a long stretch. Yeah. And it was starting to get pretty hot. 27:40 Um, I wanna say it was like 65 or 67 miles or something like that to the next- Yeah... aid station. 27:45 Um, so I caught him, and he was able to end up sort of, you know, jumping on my wheel, and, you know, we ended up riding in together to the Dublin Aid Station, which is, what, 150 miles-ish? Around there, yeah. 160. 27:58 Yeah. Something like that. Um, you know, then ended up leaving there. Um, ended up getting the, the Salsa, the, the Chais Lounge or whatever. Oh, the Chais. Yeah. Yeah. Or, yeah, thank you. 28:11 Yeah, I think that's more- Right... correct pronunciation. Yeah, which was really cool. That- Awesome... that's a really neat thing that they're doing. Um- Traveling around the country with all the gravel grinders. 28:19 Yeah, yeah. Getting some sexy pictures on there. [laughs] Yeah, it's pretty darn cool. Yeah. Definitely check it out. Um, but yeah, and then ended up finishing fourth overall. Fourth. Ended up finished fourth overall. 28:31 Yeah, yeah. Went into it forgetting your shit, no wallet. Like- Yeah. "If I don't make it, I'll just ride home, but instead I'll keep going and get fourth," so. I don't know how the hell that happened. 28:42 That's g- I was on a good day, but- Congratulations, man. That's an awesome race, man. Thank you. That's a great ride. Yeah, sorry to like kind of babble about it, but it's just- No, not at all... 28:48 it was, it was an incredibly well run race- Right... for something that stretches across a fricking state. It's like- Yeah... this is... 28:57 It w- it was an amazing endeavor just to like kind of n- like have this course out there. Right. You know? Right. So, and they did such a good job. Um, it was a lot of fun. Definitely recommend it. 29:07 So what, so what I did, as some of you may have already read at fatbike.com, I just put up an article about it, is I was like, "Fuck it, I'm gonna bike pack that thing and I'm gonna take three days" [laughs] Which, when weather comes in, takes four days. 29:22 Yep. Which was totally fine. It was totally cool. And I would highly recommend taking that bike packing route and definitely going east to west, though. 29:31 Yeah, and it's, it's cool because you kinda get- You can go both ways, but- You get the same thing that I got out of doing the race. Yeah. 29:37 And, you know, it's like you, you basically start at sunrise in the race and finish ideally before sunset. Sure. And you can dip your tire in, you know, each side, each different lake and so, yeah. Right. 29:46 And you basically get that entire experience, but you're not kind of under the gun, you know, you're just kind of taking it in. Yeah. 29:53 We modified the course just to get to campsites here and there, but I mean, it was- There's really good natural campsites, and you got options. Yep. If you wanna do three days, there's good ones. Yep. 30:01 And if you wanna do four days, there's good ones. Yeah. But going east to west gets... You know, your stoke is really high at the beginning of a race, and you forget how flat and kind of square-like- [laughs]... 30:12 grid it is, you know- [laughs]... because by the time you're getting done, you're going through some really good double track, um- Yeah, the west side of the state is awesome... 30:19 and if, if you have a good map, you can put in single track once you get to the Udall Hills, you know? Very, yeah, there's- You know?... there's a lot of good options that you can mix in there. 30:27 So, um, coast to coast, Michigan Coast to Coast. I'll, I'll put a link up in the show notes about where to go to get information about that. 30:34 It's also at the, uh, article, if you haven't checked it out, on fatbike.com, um, that I just put up about the three of, three, three of us bike packing that trip. Um, super cool. 30:44 Plus bikes and fat bikes, highly recommended. I mean, you can do it on a gravel- Yeah, there's-... but you'll be way more comfy-... there's some definite sand spots... way more comfy on a, on a- You, you gotta-... 30:52 thicker tire... you gotta mentally be prepared to hike a bikeIf you don't have- Right... a plus or a fat bike. And even with a plus bike, you might have to. Yeah. There was one section on the Pine River I had to. 31:02 C- okay, 'cause- Yeah... it like when, when I was doing- I just hauled her down... the race, there was like two spots where, you know, most people are definitely gonna have to hike their bike. Right, right. 31:10 [laughs] No, I know those two spots. [laughs] Yeah. One I made it, one I didn't. [laughs] Um, but anyway, we're gonna take a quick break. 31:16 We're gonna come back, talk real briefly about, um, a- another bikepacking adventure that's going on pretty soon, um, and then get into some technical stuff. So hang on. 31:27 [upbeat music] Welcome back, campers. 31:46 Here we are to part 14 of our- [laughs] Fat Camp 33. Um, Ken, what's going on? What are you packing up for? What's on your mind right now? 31:54 So I'm in the midst of, I gotta have a cardboard box- I don't think people understand really in the midst of [laughs] So okay, I'm gonna go ride the Oregon Timber Trail. Wow. And I have to pack up my... 32:07 And which is a 670 mile, 62% single track route from, uh, south to north across Oregon, and it goes through some of the best riding areas in all of Oregon. 32:22 Um, you know, the, the big name spots are like Oakridge and Bend and stuff like that. So it's, it's really flipping rad. Um- So how long do you think it's gonna take you, n- not knowing anything right now? About 15 days. 32:37 Okay. Yeah. And- We're gonna, we're gonna have a... W- you remember when you did the Colorado Trail, and we had a, like a dedicated podcast about Colorado Trail? I'm sure- Yes... we'll have one. Okay. 32:47 We're gonna have a dedicated Oregon Trail, Oregon Timber Trail podcast, um, 'cause we gotta hear about this. [laughs] We gotta hear about this. It's gonna be interesting. 32:55 This is only the second year that it's been around. Um, what tires are you running? I think I'm gonna run a 2.6 Maxxis Rekon on the front. Yeah. And then a 2.6 Bontrager XR2 on the rear. Gotcha. Full suspension? 33:08 Yep, yep. Okay. 100 in the rear, t- 120 in the front. Okay. So approximately 14 to 16 days. Yeah, somewhere around there. I got, like, 18 days that I can work with. One refueling, two refuelings? 33:21 Well, I mean, you can go off course- Yes... to get stuff- Yeah... but the most efficient is basically to stop at Oakridge, which is pretty much the halfway point- Okay... and do a resupply. 33:28 So that's kinda what I'm going into it thinking. All right. Um- Water every day, or do you have to go- Uh, there's some-... a couple days? Well, it depends on which side of the Cascades you're on. Okay. 33:39 Um, the first portion of it starts out above 8,000 feet- Okay... which is gonna hurt, and then it's really dry. Um, we're on the east side of the, the whole Cascade Range. So, um, I kinda have to go into it... 33:52 I know my first three days ideally will be about 50 miles, 50 miles, 50 miles. Okay. Because, uh, day two and day three, the, your only real reliable, like, decent water sources are about 50 miles apart. Okay. 34:07 So what I wanna do is get, like, my first day in, be at that reliable water source or very close to it, so I can, you know, basically top off all my water, ride all day on that water, [laughs] be out of water when I get to the next reliable source- Sure... 34:22 where I can camp. Okay. Repeat the next day. Right. 34:25 Because if I had to end up spending two days on one of those sections, that means, okay, now I have to bring enough water to ride whatever, you know, that, the 50 miles, plus I have to end up bringing enough water to, you know, cook dinner, eat breakfast, all this extra stuff. 34:41 So that- that's a ton more weight in water. Gotcha. Um, so that's kinda... 34:49 I think, I don't think that's too ambitious, you know, as far as the stats go, but that is, like, supposed to be the most remote and rugged, and it goes through some really cool stuff. Yeah. But I won't get into that. 34:59 Right. Yeah. So anyways, stay tuned. That's gonna be the August, September- Yeah... uh, podcast. Yeah. Um- So, well, I'm in the midst of packing for that. That was why we kinda- Yeah... brought that up... 35:08 you had to switch gears. Yeah. And, like, in two days, I have to have everything I need for, like, about 20 days on the road in a cardboard box, except for what I carry as a carryon to, onto the plane. Right. 35:20 So, uh, I gotta be very organized. No big deal. [laughs] No problem. But let's get into the geekitude of, um- Fork flex... fork flex. Yeah. Geez, oh, Pete. So what, what happened with... 35:32 What's, what's all this fork flex about? Forks flex. Okay. Yeah. Okay. So- Well, what's it... Who, who cares how much it flexes? So, okay. Let me, let me talk about origin story for this data. Okay. 35:42 Um, Scott Quiring, friend of mine, you know, custom builder, rad dude, um, he decided to build an apparatus to test fork stiffness. Okay. Because he's been doing, like, 35:57 the, to, to kind of back up a little bit, um, the classic really good riding rigid fork is what for the last, I don't know, at least five, 10 years or whatever, has been a True Temper, 36:10 um, bladed, you know, sorta hand-built fork. Okay. That- that's kinda been the go-to. Um, and, 36:20 you know, you look at carbon forks and things like that, and it's like some of them end up being very, very, very stiff, like the Niner fork. That's one that a lot of people love. Right. I've had one of those. 36:28 I've, I thought it's awesome. 36:30 Um, you know, and you kind of, you know, there, there's kind of this big continuum in there where some of them are very flexy, and some of them are really good handling, you know, but still comfortable enough, and there's some of them that are just, like, gonna beat the shit out of you. 36:40 Okay. Um, so Scott kinda wanted to quantify this because he, like, the True Temper is no longer making tubes. No. And, um- Okay... they, they basically have, like, shut down their, their bike division. Mm-hmm. 36:53 So, you know, [laughs] the classic standard for rigid forks that we have had for years is kinda going away. 36:58 And Scott, I don't know if that was the motivator or what, I never really talked to him about it, but he, Scott has been-... building titanium rigid forks recently. Okay. 37:07 And what he does, he does a bunch of these mathematical calculations about, you know, bending moments, and inertias, and all this other kind of stuff. 37:15 And he tries to make his Ti forks ride similar to, you know, what those True Temper forks rode like. Okay. All right. 37:24 So he's done now, like, he basically built this apparatus to now go from the theoretical to the actual. Okay. 37:30 You know, how do these Ti forks ride compared to, you know, the gold standard in a lot of ways for what people consider to be a good rigid fork? A steel fork, yeah. Yep. 37:39 You know, and then he also had a few other forks around, so he ended up just throwing them in this thing and seeing- Okay... what he would get, and ended up kinda getting some data. Okay. 37:48 And so, uh, you know, the, the classic Quiring made, I think it was a 20... The, all these were exactly the same length from the axle to the crown, or very, very, very close. Okay. 38:01 There, there wasn't any difference in terms of the height of the fork, 'cause he's- Okay... kind of building them all, and all those forks were built for their suspension-corrected length- Mm-hmm... a 29er. 38:11 So he did, you know, the Quiring, you know, steel fork, and that, like, he basically hi- the, I guess I should describe the apparatus. He has a clamping mechanism where it clamps onto who- the steerer tube- Mm-hmm... 38:23 very close to the crown race, so it can be a similar flex place as to on, what's on your frame, and then a second clamp further up the steerer tube. 38:30 And then he hangs a specified amount of weight off of the end, the axle- Okay... of the fork, and then he measures how far that fork then deflects, how far it bends down. Okay. 38:44 Um, and that amount of flex is correlated very closely to, let's say, comfort. Or, you know, there's some steel forks that kinda jackhammer you over bumps, and they don't track very well. Mm-hmm. 38:58 There's other ones that track a little bit better. Typically, it, up to a point, and then they get really flexy, and then they are kinda bad. 39:05 But once again, kinda going back to the classic, you know, steel traditional fork, um, that's what your baseline is. So then he tested his titanium fork, and it was, like, 14% stiffer. Oh. 39:18 So, so then, you know, so pretty darn close. Yeah. You know, not, not a big difference, and I've been riding one of those, um- Yeah... I had- You've mentioned that before. 39:25 Yeah, I had a Borealis carbon fork, which is a pretty flexy fork, and I went to this Ti fork, and I'm just like, "Oh my God, this thing's amazing." Mm. 39:32 Um, really, really, really just, like, good comfort, but it seems like it's s- just stiff enough. It kinda, you know, balances those two factors really well. Mm-hmm. 39:42 Um, so that was 14% stiffer than the classic steel fork. Then he threw in a Niner carbon fork, and this is one of the, uh, I'd, I'd kinda describe it as more like the middle years, I think. 39:55 I don't think this was a, like, uh, one of the most modern RDO ones with a thru axle. Okay. This was the middle generation with a thru axle. Right. Um, and that was 34% stiffer- Okay... than the baseline steel fork. 40:06 One third, yeah. So yeah, exactly. So definitely stiffer. Mm-hmm. Um, and then he threw on, he had a Whiskey Number 9 carbon fork, which is another fork that'll fit a 29er plus tire. 40:18 But he's always felt like this fork is just, like, beating the shit out of him, [laughs] basically. Yeah. And that was almost 52% stiffer. So you don't want a stiff fork? 40:29 I mean, I, you don't want a less stiff fork than a classic steel fork- Okay... that handles really well- Okay... as a rigid fork. All right. 40:36 You know, that's kinda, like I said, that's kinda the gold standard that you kinda wanna shoot for. And, you know, the titanium one comes really darn close and has a, a similar feel to it. 40:47 Um- What does a, how does a fork, you know, in the winter, does it mat- does it matter what kind of fork I've got? Not as much, no. Okay. 40:56 Um, that's gonna, and that's, that's where, I mean, the Borealis fork always felt really good to me in the winter. Okay. 41:01 That was totally fine because, you know, your surface is vague enough that having a little bit of a vague fork 'cause of flex- Right... is no big deal. Right. 41:07 But where I noticed it was, like, when I went to my 29 plus and I was riding really aggressively, or if I ended up going bike packing, you know. Yeah. 41:15 Any of these types of things where, you know, I, it was especially bad with the bike packing. It was like, you know, [laughs] 41:21 I'd have to, like, load up the whole front end, and then it'd kinda go sprong, and then it would- Okay... go the right direction. Um, it was really distinctive. Okay. And it wasn't cool. So that fork is, 41:34 uh, plays a role in how the bike is tracking? Oh, yeah, exactly. Okay. Yeah, and most of the time, like I said, you know, a flexier fork for a fat bike, no big deal in the winter. 41:43 But, you know, the more load you put into that front tire, the more that, you know, fork makes a big difference. Right. So, you know, if you're really, you know, pushing the envelope, 41:54 you know, having a little stiffer fork is nice, but still, I don't think anybody's ever said that, you know, your classic steel fork was too flexy in that kinda scenario. Right. Yeah. 42:04 So, you know, typically what's happening is, like, you're [laughs] going over roots and rocks, and it's like it's skipping over stuff, so it can't get enough traction to have that make a difference. Gotcha. 42:12 And that's where there's, this balance is so key. Okay. All right. So just, y- you know, interesting. I guess- Interesting data, yeah. Yeah. 42:18 You know, the carbon forks across the board were much, much, much stiffer with the exception... I didn't test the Borealis. We didn't throw that in there, so I can't talk about that. 42:26 But my guess is they would be flexier than the steel fork, and that didn't ride well. Do those results surprise you at all? On the Niner fork, I thought would be closer in stiffness to a steel fork, the Ti fork. Okay. 42:40 Um, because it's a pretty comfortable fork, and I think that's kinda like that natural dampening quality of carbon. Um- Hmm... but, you know, I, I'm a huge fan of the Niner carbon f- fork. 42:52 I still ride one on my single speed. Yeah. Um, it's held up awesome, and it rides awesome. Gotcha. Um, but then I love, you know, the steel, um, Quiring forks that I've had in the past. Mm-hmm. 43:02 And this Ti fork just, it, I think that's the, the best fork I've ever ridden. Okay. It's just, it's got this just ma- it'sIt's kinda like a Ti frame. It's just this magical ride. 43:13 It's like, it's springy, but it's just stiff enough, and- Wow... it just, you know, you don't feel like you're getting beaten up, but the bike's never really, like, doing anything you don't want it to. 43:22 But it's just got this personality, this, you know, like, pop that I just don't feel on some other bikes. And I have no idea. Like, maybe it's just placebo. I look down and I see battleship gray and it makes me happy. 43:33 I don't know. Yeah. You know? That might be the case, too That could be it... but yeah. Yeah. Uh, quick break. We'll be right back with the n- we're gonna wrap it up with some new stuff, well, relatively new stuff. 43:45 [upbeat rock music] And we're back. Welcome back to the Fat Camp Podcast number 33, b- then they're around the corner, and it's gonna... 44:02 Da-hey-way The longest- Oh, and the winner is new stuff... the longest podcast in the world here. Yes. So, no- We got some new stuff. It's not really new, but it's new to us... 44:11 it's a, well, it's- It's worth talking about... it is, because it's, it's a lot of times it's some stuff that either [coughs] 44:17 excuse me, isn't available or is coming down the pipe, just kinda, like, worth your while to check out. Um, there's a couple things that are available here. What do you got, man? What you got for us? 44:26 So first things first, a big middle finger to the bike industry. Ooh, ooh, he does not do this often. Um, it looks like there's a bunch of bikes that are being offered with flat mount rear brakes on the frames. 44:42 Uh, what are flat mount rear brakes? So okay, if you look at mountain bike world, there's two standards for disc brakes. Here we go. There's the international standards, the IS mounts. Yep. 44:53 And those are, like, you know, two bolts that are, like, kind of parallel to the axle on the bike. Okay. You know, and then what you do is you put an adapter on there, and then you connect your brake. Right. 45:07 Then there's post mounts. That's the other standard. Okay. 45:10 And normally, if like, if you're going with sort of, sort of the, um, I don't wanna say the recommended, but like the smallest size that they're designed for, like on most mountain bikes that's a 160 rotor. Yeah. 45:22 You just bolt your brake right to the fork or to the frame. Okay. Everything's good. You don't even need an adapter. 45:28 If you are upsizing the rotor, then you put in like a little adapter and it adds 20 millimeters, and- Gotcha... you're, you're good to go. Okay. So that's all good. Yeah. I, I like that. 45:40 You know, I, I can roll with either standard. They're both good. Um, but then the road people thought that it looked too clunky, uh, to go with one of those two standards. Now, you're being serious here? Uh, I'm, yeah. 45:55 I, I think that's what I- The road people thought it was ugly? Pretty much. Yeah, it, it pretty much comes down to that, yeah. 46:00 And, and I think they might have- And, and, and a roadaholic wouldn't say, "No, you're a- Well-... you're a-... I think, I think-... stoner mountain biker, and that's why you're saying this"? 46:09 Well, I think they might say a lot of different things about this. [laughs] Yeah. But I don't wanna get into that. Okay. Um, but I would... I'd like... Who I'd wanna talk to is the engineers who were originally- Okay... 46:18 thinking about this and being like, projecting five years down the road, "Okay, where are we headed?" Okay. And I think what they looked at is like, they, you know, instead of have... 46:26 It's basically, it's, it's like a post mount one, but instead- Yeah... of having the bolts be far apart, they're very narrow. Yeah. 46:30 They're only like, you know, I don't know, an inch and a quarter or inch and a half apart or something. Okay. Instead of being two, two and a half inches apart. 46:37 Um, and it looks a lot more sleek, I'm, I, I'll be the first to say. Okay. But- That's a roadie thing right there. Yeah. I mean, and, and that's the thing, you know? 46:46 With the road stuff, you know, having it be more aerodynamics, I can see, you know, there, there... I can see an argument for this. Okay. 46:52 But what's going on now is that it's starting to head over into mountain bike world. Okay. So and, and it... I, I feel like personally, this is needless. 47:03 I mean, I have not ever heard any positive, you know, spelled out in a logical engineering standpoint for this standard- Really?... to go over into the mountain bike thing. 47:13 You don't even have the other argument other than aesthetics. 47:16 Okay, so the, the, the probably the best argument I've heard is that since the bolts are closer together, when they're engineering a carbon frame, they have a smaller section that's kind of compromised because it has to be built up extra. 47:27 It has to be really stiff for the brake mount. Okay. 47:30 So then you have a, you know, like it's this fraction of an inch more that you can tune to the ride quality versus the rest of the chainstay, which is like, you know, 16, 17 inches long. So I mean, just it- Okay. 47:45 I think it's kinda bullshit. I mean, and- Okay... the, the problem with it is that, um, if it was just a different standard, okay, whatever. You know? 47:53 It, like maybe they want their mountain bikes to be more clean-looking like the road bikes. But it's a pain in the ass to adjust. Ugh. You know? 48:00 It, it's much harder to get those fine adjustments where you might have to move your caliper just a couple millimeters or whatever. Sure. 48:06 Just kinda, you know, for whatever reason it just, it doesn't wanna self-center, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Right, right, right. You know? It's like you need to just tweak it a little bit. 48:13 It, it's kind of a pain in the butt with this direct mount. So it, I mean, it's a thing. There's a website for it. It's flatmount180.org, blah, blah, blah. I'll put it in the show notes on- It-... I guess my- It-... 48:26 will. I have not seen any indications of this going into the fat bike world, but I've seen a lot of indications of this going into the traditional mountain bike realm. Okay. 48:36 There's been at least a half a dozen bikes released in the last, you know, three months that have had this standard. Fuck it. Yeah. 48:45 Mulefit rims, um, what's going on with this, some new fat- Thank goodness that- Let's, let's talk about fat bikes... yeah, let's, yeah. This is a happy subject, sorry. Right. It took me to a deep, dark place. 48:53 So Mulefit's got new, something new? Yeah. So I mean, the, the Mulefit's been kind of a standard- Right... really good aluminum option, you know, with good tubeless categor- or capabilities. Right. 49:02 So the, the thing though is they're kinda saying like, "F you, Pugsley and asymmetric rear ends." They don't have lacing on both sides anymore. Oh, okay. Um, but it's going with a much more structurally efficient design. 49:15 It's similar to what you see from the DT where you kinda have like the-The Cross- Yeah... type things. Yep. Um, so I think it, if I remember right, it's supposed to be like 650 grams, so significant weight loss. Okay. 49:29 You know, it should be a r- a really, really solid option. Um, I'm stoked to see some development going on in the fat bike range. Dude, they look hot, man. Yeah. I, I think it's- They look amazing... 49:38 I think it's gonna be a super, super, super solid aluminum option. Yeah. One of the best out there. Yeah. So- So screw you, Pugsi. Yep. So then- Yeah... another kind of, you know, in a, in a similar spec realm- Right... 49:49 is the... I, I'm gonna just, uh, pronounce it as Big Sue, but I might be- Oh... totally saying that wrong. I went out with a girl named Big Sue one time. [laughs] This is, this is from Fatback. [laughs] Okay. 50:02 Hopefully it doesn't prompt any other memories for Andy. Nope. Um- She was hot though. [laughs] Oh my God. Big but hot, you know? But like 78, you know, millimeter internal, tubeless ready. 50:14 It looks like it should end up being a really, really, really solid option, about 650 grams once again. Gotcha. So, you know, those are two... 50:21 I, I'm just glad to see fat bikes getting some love because they haven't got a lot of love in recent years. Do you think these would be, uh... Could I buy one if I was just, you know, Joe Blow? I think so, yeah. Yeah. 50:32 I mean, like- Can I get those Big Sues? They're supposed to be available in August. Okay. But I mean, that was what was being reported- Okay... back in like- Back in the-... March, April- Right... 50:40 May, sometime a long time ago. All right. Well, Google search will help me out on this one. Yeah. Hopefully they'll be... Actually, you know, I'd- Yeah... I'd give them a call up there. They're, they're good people. 50:49 They'll talk to you and let you know what's up. Nice. Something that really stoked our brains- Oh, it stoked my- What, what- Yeah... it stoked several things- Yeah. It was like, oh... which we won't go into. 51:00 Yeah, we won't even talk about that. Was the, uh, was the, uh, Full Stash. From Trek, yeah. Yeah. So, I mean, people haven't seen that. I mean, the Stash has been out for a long time. 51:08 That was a, a super short chainstay hardtail that was... That's like a really nice rowdy bike. 29 plus. Yeah, 29 plus, yep. Um, really, really, really sweet bike. Now- Yeah... 51:19 Trek ended up doing the same thing to full suspension, and not just like full suspension, but 130 mils- Right, like-... of full suspension. Yeah. Yeah, so- Full on suspension. Yeah. So that... I mean, it's a rowdy bike. 51:31 Yeah. Um- I would love to try one of those out. Yeah, me too. Yeah. I, I think that I've... I, I was very tempted by that. 51:38 I think it's a little bit too much for maybe what I n- I mean, my 29 plus full suspension for where I live is adequate, a- as it was when I, uh, w- when I traveled southeast, and hopefully when I travel- [laughs]... 51:52 out west. But I mean, if I, if I lived where there was drops and stuff, I'd want more suspension I think, full- I don't... It-... on a plus bike. This just looks like a really... 52:03 Like, okay, so the knock on the Deadwood has been it's too short a travel, it's too old school geometry. Right. You know, it's not rowdy enough. Right. And basically this is rowdy incarnate right here. Right. 52:17 I mean, you still keep the super short chainstays, 130 mils of travel, you know, and, you know, being able to run 29 plus, or, you know, you're not gonna drop the bottom bracket too much. 52:27 You can run 26-inch tires on here and have it be a much more, quote-unquote, "normal"- 26? Uh, d- d- 2.6, I'm sorry. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. My bad. Okay. I don't know if I said that wrong. Holy shit. 52:36 Um, 2.6 inch tires, 29. Gotcha. Okay. Um, so, you know, you've got quite a range of available tires that are really kickass and would really kind of fit this thing and work well. Gotcha. 52:47 Um, it's only available in aluminum frame, so, you know, it's a little on the portly side, but it still seems like it could be a really, really, really fun bike. Right. 52:57 Um, I would love to bike pack with something like that. You know, like what I'm gonna be doing right now? Yeah. You know, that would be a really fun bike because- Nice... 53:06 you know, I've, I've already designed into my schedule to drop the bags for a few days and just go play on these incredible trails, and if I had a bike that was, you know, had a little more, you know, sprung to it and stuff like that, it was playful like that kind of bike, oh, that'd be amazing. 53:21 Yeah. Uh, link in the show notes. If you scroll down, you'll see there's some Full Stash. It's a- There's a Full Stash link that'll take you right to- Yeah... all the sexy stuff. It's a hot bike. Yeah. 53:29 Um, but some new stuff in the drivetrain. Is XTR going 12 now? Y- yes. 53:35 And in general, there's a lot of cool stuff, and it's like we're gonna start off with XTR, which is a chi-chi option, kind of blow through that because there's a ton of press on that. Okay. 53:45 Um, but there's a lot of other cool stuff in the drivetrain world for fat bikers and plus bikers. So the new XTR, it is 12-speed. They one-upped SRAM. 53:55 Instead of having a, you know, a 10 by 50, which is what Eagle is- Right... they have a 10 by 51. Ah. They- All the dentists will like this. Yeah. They, they've done a lot of cool stuff like that. The thing is, it, it... 54:06 I mean, I, I don't want to disparage XTR because there's been just some incredible engineering, and I think there's- Right... 54:11 you know, there's some really cool stuff coming down the pipe for people who can afford stuff other [laughs] than XTR. Right. Um, but it's a couple years off, and that's, that's an option that's out there. Right. 54:21 But for more reasonable options, there's the Garbaruk, Garbaruk, I don't know how you pronounce it. I'm gonna go with you. Yeah. But so, it's a, it's a 10 by 50 wide range 11-speed cassette. 54:36 Um, this is kinda like the E13- Yeah... 11-speed cassette that goes- Right... I don't know, what is it, nine... Is it 42? I don't know. I can check real quick. I don't know. Yeah. It's... 54:47 Yeah, it, it basically, it's, it's another one of those things that kind of provides a similar range to Eagle. This, uh, does the same, but it's an 11-speed cassette. Um- 946. Okay, yeah. 54:59 And then if I remember right, that's like 100 or 511%. Holy shit, 946? Yeah, yeah. Wow. So the, you know, so the high end, you have a little bit more high end- Yeah... 55:08 so you can still run like a 30 tooth and s- you know, chain ring instead of like- Yeah... a 32 or a 34- Right... or something like that. Right, okay. 55:14 Um, so you get the high end, but then, you know, a lot of your derailleurs, like a, like a, um, you know, a Shimano XT or whatever- Sure... like normal 11 speed can fit that range. No kidding. Yeah. Wow. 55:25 So it's, that- When will it end? Ugh, who knows? Yeah. But this Garbaruk is cool because it's 1050. It's 11 speed, so you can just throw it on your regular old, you know, SRAM- Okay... 55:37 type stuff, you know, one-by system, 11 speed. 55:41 Um, and the reason why I feel like this is kind of fat bike specific is because, I mean, I don't know about other people, but for me, like, when I'm riding on more buffed out trails, or on roads, or gravel roads, or something like that, you know, when there's big jumps in between gears it's ki- it's a little bit annoying. 55:57 Right. Um, but when I'm fat biking, I mean, the conditions are so variable. Sometimes I'm just, like, grinding it out at like, you know, 50, you know, cadence, and then sometimes I'm, like, spinning and- Right... 56:10 really high, and it's like I just don't seem to notice big jumps between my gears nearly as much- Sure... on typical snow, fat bike conditions. Right. 56:18 So, you know, if you're going the same range as a 12 speed but you only have 11 speeds, you're not really giving up anything if you don't notice the jumps. Right. That's, that's what the one negative is. 56:28 And it's, it's fairly light, so it's not like it's- Okay... this boat anchor thing. You know, like, some, some of the Sunrace ones are kinda on the hefty side and stuff. So th- that doesn't have that negative. 56:37 It's, it's got a lot of positives, it's just you got big jumps between gears. Good for E*Thirteen. Well, we haven't even talked about the E*Thirteen. Well, oh, I thought you were talking about the 10 to 42 thing. 56:49 Well, E*Thirteen's got it too. Like, they- Oh, they do... you're talking about the 9-46, but then- Yeah, yeah, yeah... 56:53 E*Thirteen just released another thing which converts your 11 speed drive train to a 12 speed if you got a SRAM Eagle, or excuse me, if you've got a SRAM, like, XX type- Really?... setup. Yeah. Oh. 57:05 So what it, what it does is it replaces part of your shifter. [laughs] So- Oh, oh, okay... 'cause, you know, you look at SRAM, they've, they've got a whole bunch of 11 speed stuff. 57:14 They got NX, they got GX, they got- XXO... X, XO, and then XX1. And XX1, right. Yeah. So, you know, they've got a full, like, kind of continuum of really kick-butt 11 speed stuff out there. 57:27 And what this E*Thirteen, um, like, conversion thing does is it, it gives you a different part to your shifter. Okay. You put it in there, now all of a sudden you got 12 clicks in your shifter. Really? Yeah. 57:38 And they've got then the rear cassette that they also sell with it that's got, you know, 12 spots, or you can run an Eagle cassette if you wanted to, or you can run whatever the hell you want. Oh. 57:49 But, like, this kit, it's a little on the pricey side. I wanna say it's, like, right around 300 bucks. Ooh. But- Ooh... 57:56 you know, if you have to replace your cassette anyways, this could be a really easy way to upgrade to 12 speed without having to upgrade, you know, your shifters, and cranks, and a whole bunch of other stuff. Sure. 58:07 It's just, it's just basically a little internal part on your shifter, and then the rear cassette. So once again, it's another way... We had, we had talked about in the past, um, 58:17 like, I was surprised fat bikes weren't getting a lot of love- Right... as far as, like, component selection. Sure. So like- Yeah... starting to look at new models and things like that, and it's like- Right... 58:25 and they didn't have Eagle, you know? 58:27 This, these are different ways to kinda get that same range that Eagle provides, which if you're running a one-by on a fat bike, I mean, I think that big range, that 500%-ish- Yeah... range is super key. 58:39 Do you think E*Thirteen is thinking that maybe there's gonna be a one by 13 someday? [laughs] I mean, do you see a, do you see a 13, a 14, a 15 gear, I mean, on a bike? Oh, I'm sure. I'm sure we'll have it. Really? Yeah. 58:51 I'd be amazed if we d- I mean, I thought going from five speed to six speed was crazy, so it's like now that we're twice that it's- Okay. Yeah. I mean, it just keeps on a-marchin'. Wow. Yeah. Okay. 59:05 [laughs] That kinda blows me away, 'cause it, I was like, I remember I was never gonna give up my eight speed. Yep. [laughs] Jeez oh Pete. [laughs] All right. Yep. Okay. The march of, you know, progress here. 59:18 Right, right. Modernity. Right. Anything else new that you wanna talk about before we rass this up? Uh, just kind of a, a call out- I just said rass this up. [laughs] Wrap this up. [laughs] Thank you for- Jeez oh Pete... 59:29 yeah. Good Lord. Pronouncing better. Well, someone would say, "He just said rass it up." [laughs] He doesn't know what the fuck you're talking about. Rah, rah, rah. Quarq tire pressure gauges. What? 59:38 Quarq tire pressure gauges. Yeah, so Quarq is a company that, uh- Oh... they started off as a, like, an independent power meter thing. Okay. 59:45 They built a really quality power meter, and they developed it very quickly, and had a very good kind of feedback loop, I guess is how I'd describe it. 59:55 I've, I've read enough about the company to know that, like, they basically responded to customer feedback and, you know, like, professional rider feedback, and a lot of these types of things to develop their product really fast and make a really good, like, quality power meter. 1:00:09 Okay. And it was so good SRAM bought 'em up. All right. So now it's a division of SRAM. And Quarq has now started to spin off, uh, several other products. Um, one of which was the ShockWiz. Ah, ShockWiz. 1:00:21 I love the ShockWiz. Airtime. Yeah, I've got one. Yeah, I love that stat. Um- Yeah... but it's, for instance, you know, the ShockWiz, 1:00:30 w- the reason why it's such an awesome device is, like, you really only use it to kinda dial in your suspension once- Yeah... 1:00:35 per se, um, and then you're good, but it's once for, like, kind of where, you know, like, kind of the terrain you're riding. Okay. 1:00:41 If I was riding really, you know, like, jumpy, aggressive, machine-built in one spot, or I'm riding really chunky, you know, natural in a different spot, I'm gonna have probably different suspension settings. 1:00:50 So it can be good for setting up those different suspension settings. Where it's really good is bike packing, and all of a sudden I'm gonna strap 20, 30 pounds on my bike- Right, right... 1:01:01 and now I gotta be like, "I've got one little ride I can fit in here before I have to pack my bike up and ship it off, and, like, hopefully not have to pack a shock pump." Sure. I just want it to work. Right. 1:01:14 [laughs] So what I'm gonna do, I'm gonna go out with the ShockWiz, I'm gonna collect a bunch of data, and I'm gonna end up going off the recommendations and tweak it in to where it needs to go. Okay. All right. 1:01:21 Hopefully that's a pretty fast and efficient process. And then hopefully, you know, my bike handles really well, and every other time in the past the ShockWiz has been awesome. Quarq. Yes. So- [laughs] 1:01:34 No, just I, I, it, it, this company deserves to be talked about. Quarq does the same thing? Yeah. 1:01:38 So-This is a weird product from a really cool company There you go Um, the tire pressure gauges Okay Um, it's, it's like, I wanna say 200 bucks for these things Ooh You get, you know, one per tire. 1:01:53 It d- you know, basically records your tire pressure to your cellphone and does a whole bunch of stuff, which- Sure... seems really, really, really dumb to me. Like, it's just like so over the top. 1:02:05 $200 to measure tire pressure just seems silly. I will buy like a little, like manual thing- Analog... measure. Yeah. You know? Yeah. But, 1:02:16 but all of that said, you know, it's like I, I, I can kind of like my knee-jerk initial reaction is this is stupid, this is too much money to spend on it. 1:02:25 I think this is going to lead to something good, because if you look at... Like, if this thing can accurately measure to even a half of, uh, PSI for fat bike type stuff, 1:02:38 that, I mean, uh, that could end up being pretty significant to help you out as far as like dialing in. You know, that's one of the biggest issues we see on our trails is people running the wrong tire pressure out there. 1:02:48 You know, if there was an easy way for, you know, shops to send people out and just be like, "Run this, run this- Yep... run this." Okay You know? 1:02:56 I mean, it's like if there was a way to demystify the fat bike tire pressure thing, this could be amazing. I see what you're saying. Okay. I didn't know where you were going, but yeah. 1:03:07 It, it took me a little while, because it's, I, I just- Really? [laughs] Yeah. [laughs] I, I kinda just recoil from, you know, the dorkitude of this. 1:03:14 And if you look at it on face value, it looks like some, like stupid Kickstarter type idea that somebody had or whatever. But 1:03:23 I know what the ShockWiz does, and I think that this, you know, you know, TireWiz thing could do the same. And SRAM invested in it, so you know it's gotta be something, you know, that worthwhile. 1:03:34 Well, I think they give Quark a f- you know, that division of their company a fair amount of leeway to kinda follow their bliss. Gotcha. Okay. 1:03:42 So, you know, it's like I think what they did was they, oh, they're like, "We got these electronics for the ShockWiz. Now let's do another air pressure based thing." Oh. You know? And- Okay... 1:03:50 you know, kind of adapted it to a different direction. Can you put ShockWiz on your front fork too? Oh, yeah. Okay. Yeah. All right. 1:03:57 Yeah, you- Do you need, if you have a top and a bottom, do you have to have two of them then, duh? If you're gonna record at the same time, but what you could end up doing is, like what I've done- Okay... 1:04:05 is just run it on the rear, collect my data and be like, "Oh, okay, I wanna make these tweaks," and then I go out, ride again, then, you know, I still have it on the rear and I'm like, "Oh, okay, I got it now." 1:04:13 So then you can switch it over to the front, collect your data and be like, "Oh- What if it's... And if it's dual, then you gotta do it again on the bottom. Oh, no, no, no, I'm sorry. 1:04:22 If, if you're talking like dual air or single air, all that kind of stuff- Yeah... no. Um, you can just use the ShockWiz on that- Oh, okay... and it's good. All right. Period. Got you. 1:04:28 Yeah, 'cause those are, those, those are different shocks where the, the two chambers equalize, and it can handle that. Yeah. And that, my folks, my friends, is- [laughs]... 1:04:38 called Fat Camp 33, an abrupt [imitates emergency alarm] [laughs] Jeez, oh, Pete. No. Gotta shut me up. Uh, no, not at all. Um, we, we've been on hiatus. Uh, no, what was it, what'd you call it? It wasn't hiatus. 1:04:51 Sabbatical. Sabbatical, yeah. We were on sabbatical, 'cause we were doing research. Um, don't forget our email. We should've mentioned this like a, uh, an hour ago. It's at fatcamppodcasters- Plural... @gmail.com. 1:05:05 Also- We've gotten a lot of good emails, and we've responded to a lot of those emails. Yeah. And at some point we probably should just integrate into talking about those emails. Right. 1:05:12 Um, please- 'Cause I think other people might enjoy it, but- Usually I forward them to Ken. Yeah. Some of you might get the pleasure of hear, hearing right from me, but it'll be like for [laughs] an easy question. 1:05:22 And also we're on the Instagram @fatcamppodcasters. That, um, of course is plural as well, so we post up once in a while. Ken, need, you need to take more pictures, dude, 'cause we need more shit. 1:05:33 I plan on taking lots of pictures when I'm out west. Oh, that's right. Okay. It's gonna be awesome. Can you get those to me through Spot? 1:05:39 Uh, not through the Spot, but I should have cell signal now and then- Cell signal now and then... that I can send it out. All right. So- I will try to be good about that... 1:05:45 we're gonna try to liven up the, uh, Instagram here with w- by Go- by no means will it be daily pics, trust me. [laughs] You're lucky to get a monthly pic of something that's dumb. Anyway, 1:05:57 I do wanna thank, and I know Ken does too, maybe he will personally, uh, people who listen and people who, um- That have endured our absence... 1:06:05 endured our absence [laughs] and, you know, since, I think it was 2015 we started this gig, and we're still rolling. Yeah, three years. That's kind of amazing. 1:06:12 Gomez still is like, "All right, whenever, you guys," although I'm sure he'd like it more regularly, but anyways, um, that's number 33. Check out the show notes. Check out the pictures. Check out the Instagram. 1:06:24 Shoot us an email, and we will see you on episode 34 in August. Peace out. [upbeat rock music] Thank you for listening. 1:06:42 The music we are using on today's show is from the Free Music Archive by The Pickups, and it's their song Ride. You can find all our shows at fatbike.com, including notes for today's show. 1:06:55 [upbeat rock music]
