Transcript 0:00 [upbeat music] Welcome to Fat Camp Show number 31 and 32 for sometime around mid-March 2018. 0:21 We had some technical issues getting number 31 out, so we salvaged what we could from it and combined it with show number 32, so this is sort of a double header. Um, sorry for the long show. 0:31 Hopefully it doesn't annoy people. Uh, Fatbike.com presents Fat Camp, a more or less monthly podcast covering different technical aspects of fat and plus bikes. 0:40 Look for all our shows at Fat-Bike.com/radio, or subscribe to our feed on iTunes. 0:48 [upbeat music] Hi-de-ho, campers. It's, it's been a little while. Um, we appreciate your patience. Uh, 1:07 we, uh, tried to record a February show, ran into some technical issues and scheduling issues, and that didn't happen, and now we're a little late in March for our normal show. So- But we're here. 1:20 It's Fat Camp 31 or 32 or 30-something. Yep. Yeah. So we got a little bit, um, combined from the stuff we were able to salvage from the February show. That's about some SRAM dubs stuff. 1:31 And then we got a little bit of info about what we've got going on. It's been a, a really long and wonderful winter for us. Yeah. But- It just got longer. Yeah, yeah. We just got some great snow- Yeah... 1:42 and we're back to, like, midwinter conditions. Right. As we're recording this, it's early in March. It's the f- within the first 10 days of March and, and, uh, we're back to winter. Yeah. 1:51 Well, we thought it was gonna-- We thought we were in spring. Mm-hmm. We thought, right, it was like I was getting ready for dirt riding. Yeah. And all of a sudden, bam- Yep... winter's back. I did get a dirt ride in. 2:00 Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And then we're not gonna have a dirt ride for a long time. We'll, we'll get into all that. Right. Exactly, exactly. 2:06 Um, so other things on the docket, um, talk a little bit about the different tires we've been using this winter. Yep. Um, oval versus round chain rings. I'm curious about that. Yep. 2:15 Just, uh, a quickie thing on the Cake Eater review. Right, right. Oh, yeah. And some of the reaction. Yeah, that was great. I'm g- I'm glad we're gonna entertain that. Yeah. 2:24 Then, um, uh, a topic near and dear to Andy's heart. Yes. Uh, the Salsa Deadwood. 2:31 Um, there's a new one out, and it, it's kinda interesting because it potentially is like the canary in the coal mine, you know, telling us about what might be happening with the plus world. Right, right. 2:43 So we're looking at, you know, is this the end of three-inch tires, and, you know, they're gonna get phased out or what? So people- No, they're not. Never. So we had a little discussion on that. Right. 2:54 Um, and then we gotta also give a shout-out to Jill Martindale. Yeah. And her, um... I was g- It's not Iditarod. Is it, is it- Well-... Iditarod? Yeah, yeah. Okay. 3:05 I can never remember if it's Iditarod, Iditasport, Ididabidabida, whatever. Idida-something. She- Yeah... she, she Idida-something more than anybody else did. Yeah. Badassitude up in- Right, right... Alaska. 3:15 Um, her second place. So- Yeah, exactly. Friend of the podcast, so we'll mention her at the end there. Yep, previous interviews, we gotta give a shout-out. Exactly, exactly. 3:21 So we've got a great-- I think we got a great show. Yeah. It's just... It's kind of a, a, as we've described in the past, a potpourri of different topics. Indeed, indeed. 3:30 We will try to be as technical as we possibly can, and, um, if you've listened to us before, um, you know that that won't be me. That'll be Ken that'll be talking about that. 3:38 So, um, we'll be right back after a quick break, and we're gonna jump right into what's been going on. [upbeat music] All right. So we're back from the break. Great tunes, by the way, Ken. Really like that stuff. 3:55 [laughs] Um, and, uh, w- we're just gonna be topical right here and c- conversational. Um- Yeah, just what do we had going on. Right, right, right. Just some- So we had, we had, we had... If you're in 4:06 the land of the hand, or you're in, uh, the upper Midwest, uh, winter came fierce and furious. Is that-- Did I say that right? [laughs] Fast and furious. It was fierce, fast, and furious. [laughs] Yeah, yeah. 4:19 We got fucked. Um, and then- Lots of Fs. Yeah, exactly. So we had a ton of snow. We- Yeah, it started in, like, December, and we just got dumped- Yeah, like, right after Christmas... dum, dum, dum, dum, dum. 4:30 Just boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. Yeah. I think we, I think we recorded a show- Right... kinda near the end of that, and we were up- Yeah... to, like, 120 inches of snow at that point. Right. 4:36 And it had been, like, a month into winter. And then it turned off. Yep, yep. And we- Shut down... kinda, yeah, it, you know, our, our temperatures were still cooler. Yeah. 4:46 You know, it's like we typically were still below freezing. There were some, a few warm-ups, but w- we literally had, like, a month of just spring snow. Right. 4:53 I mean, just some of the best trail conditions 'cause we had so much base. Just bulletproof. Yeah. Fast. Yeah. So, like, you know, when it would warm up, you know, the moisture would drain out, but it would just... 5:03 You know, the trail would get super, super, super solid. Mm-hmm. You know, we had some incredible crust riding where you could- Yeah... literally ride anywhere you wanted through the woods. Right. 5:11 Um, you know, so it was just so m- so, like, a month of incredible spring snow riding. Yeah. Like, the titles of every Strava was Best Conditions Ever Again. Yeah. Best Conditions Ever Again. Ex- exactly. Right. 5:24 It's like you could... Every time you'd go out, you'd be like, "I think it was even better than it was last weekend." Right, right, right. "Last weekend was the best time I've ever had." Yeah, exactly. 5:29 You know, it was just- Last night was awesome, but today was even awesomer. Yeah, exactly. Right. Yeah, it was really, really, really, really good. Um, and then it, it warmed up, and everything kinda went away. Yeah. 5:40 We finally, all our base ended up going away, and you get down to that last little bit where, you know, all of that water that's been draining out of your snow finally just goes collecting on frozen dirt. Yeah. 5:49 And you start getting the, you know, like, the, the gray ice, the- Yeah... you know, the boilerplate ice. Right. 5:54 And we had, like, two weekends of that where it was just, like, increasingly more, and more, and more of that. So it's just, you know, it was a little sketchy, you know? Right. 6:01 Still totally ridable as long as you had studs, but- Yeah. Well- Um-... 6:04 and, and, and I wanna, I wanna talk about having studs in your quiver and how important that is 'cause there's some people that we ride with that don't have studs, and they couldn't r-They couldn't join us on the trails. 6:15 Yeah, they were hosed. Yeah. 6:16 Yeah, it just-- And, you know, if you had the studs, it was-- The great part about it was that, you know, yeah, it was that gray ice that was just really, you know, typically smooth and really, really tough. Right. 6:27 But the good part about it was that there was enough debris that had kind of collected all winter through the base that was on top of that gray ice, that it kind of melted into it, so it, it actually created some texture to the ice. 6:39 So- Texturized it, yes. Yeah. So, you know, it [laughs] the way, you know, there, there's, like, sections where literally you'd be riding for, like, a mile or two, and it'd just be nothing but gray ice. Yeah. 6:50 But the camber of the trail was actually pretty good. And, um, it looked super, super, super sketchy- Yeah... but you actually had pretty good grip as long as you had studded tires. Right. Right. 7:00 You know, like, you could, you could ride it in, like, at a pretty normal pace. Yeah. It-- And I think the-- 7:07 If you're gonna fat bike, you really need to just, you know, if you're in Michigan, return your bottles and cans and save that money, 'cause studs are, studded tires are a definite must- Yeah... 7:19 to extend your season out, you know. Well, it's just, you know, mm, I mean- But being this expensive... this, this applies to most of the Midwest. I can't speak to other areas as much. 7:26 But you get enough of those in-between conditions. You know, you get the warm-ups, you get the freezes. You get warm-ups, the freezes. Right. 7:32 And, you know, your snow just transforms, and you, you know, it's like there, there's, there's just enough time where you get the transition between warms and colds that you're gonna get ice. Yep. 7:43 And you gotta have studs in the quiver. Yeah. Yeah, I, I would, I feel really bad for people that don't have it, because, you know, you missed, like, a third of the season if you didn't have it this year. Right. Yeah. 7:55 Yeah, I wa- I was texting people saying, "Nah, you won't be able to ride." Yeah. You know, with those conditions, you know. Yeah, exactly. It's just not safe to even go out. Right. Right. 8:02 So, so we had that, um, and in f- and then, you know, we lost the base. Um, grooming equipment was, was- Yeah... like, within days of being transferred to storage units- Yeah... across the county. 8:16 Yep, I mean- The cross-country skiers had gotten rid of all their stuff. No, exactly, yeah, but all the cross-country skiing, except for the stuff that, you know, the cycling club runs, is all shut down for the year. 8:26 Yeah. We're the only people that are still going. Yeah. Um, you know, I think there's a lot of, you know, fat biking grooming that's been shut down. 8:33 But then all of a sudden, bloom, it's like, you know, it was just like winter came back. We got just this awesome, like, six to eight inches of super dense, wet, packable snow. Yeah. 8:44 And then we just got a, you know, a couple inches a day. Yeah, and the calls went out, "Should we groom?" Yep. Yep. "Yeah, we must groom." [laughs] The groom goes on. Yep. Yeah. 8:53 And I'm so glad, I mean, y- the first time you groom out of the year, it sucks so bad. I forgot how bad it is. Because, you know, A, you can't see where the trail is. Right. 9:04 So you're kinda like, you know, grooming by braille to some extent. Right. And you're like, you're looking for signs of- Yeah... 9:10 you know, broken sticks on the sides and where's that, you know- I noticed that, I noticed that today- Yeah... on the ride. It's like- Yeah... okay, the trail moved over a little bit. Yeah. You know. 9:18 And it's like, so, you know, I mean, when you get this eight-inch dump on top of, you know, kind of featureless area, you just, you can't see where the trail was before. Yeah. 9:27 So, you know, it's like there's, you know, there's all those issues, and then on top of it, you know, like, you know, places where the snow, or I guess I should say ice, was still there on the trail, you kinda have, like, this, this cupped over, like, section. 9:42 So, you know, you get a little too far over to the right and the thing tilts over to the one side. You get a little too far over to the left. 9:48 It's, it's, it, you know, it's really hard to actually stay on the crown- Right... of that icy patch that was there. 9:53 And you can't see it, so you're kinda, once, like, like, like I was saying, you're kind of, like, grooming by braille. Um- Huh... so, you know, it's just super, super, super hard to groom that first time. 10:03 But then we got in a second groom, and we just rode that this morning and- Yeah... oh my God, was it awesome. Well- I mean, it was just, like, perfect midwinter- Yeah... conditions. 10:12 Yeah, and it's, and it's mid-March, and we have midwinter conditions. Yeah. You know. Yeah. 10:16 We got that big dump, and you, and then we groomed, and then we got a couple more inches the next day, and an inch the next day, and then groomed again. Yep. And we just extended everything for another week at least. 10:28 Oh, at least. I mean, based on our forecast, I think we're gonna be riding snow for the next two weeks. Yeah. 10:32 And then that leads into the next topic of us all heading down to North Carolina to go shred the gnar down in Pisgah. Yeah, we're going to Pisgah to punt, and it's a, it's quite a crew this year. It's great. Yeah. Yeah. 10:45 Yeah. So, you know, I'm, this is, this is my ideal spring, I guess kinda not to close out, you know, c- c, to close out this topic or however you wanna put it. I mean- Right... 10:52 I don't know if you have more to s-say on it, but- No... anyways, this is my ideal scenario where I have just, like, just kick-ass snow riding, you know, like, really, really, really good. 11:02 And it's 'cause, you know, what, what I'm looking at the forecast and seeing is we've got perfect midwinter snow right now, and then it's gonna transition over the next two weeks into, like, we're gonna have, like, just great spring snow. 11:14 Right. 11:14 And then probably just before we ended up heading out of town and going down south where it's just gonna be riding on dirt, we'll start getting a little bit of the, you know, the icy type stuff, which is a little sketchy and, you know, not ideal. 11:25 So, and then you just, bam, you're, like, thrown right into the middle of, like, spring slash early summer. Right. And you- So- Yeah... 11:33 you know, it's like, it just, it really makes you appreciate it even more when you get down there into the warm temps and you're on dirt and, you know, there's things that are blooming and there's green grass- Yeah... 11:42 and all this. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, and then we come back, and we're gonna be on dirt again. It could be the perfect positive storm. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Right. 11:50 It's just, you know, it, it's, it's, it's really easy to get stoked when you've got that. And then the, and I guess the other piece with it is our snow had totally gone away. 11:58 And like you talked about, you know, like, grooming operations are shutting down, and, like, I almost put away my skis for the year and stuff like that. Yeah. 12:05 Um, so, you know, mentally you're kind of like, "Okay, winter's done. We're getting into spring." 12:10 And then all of a sudden it's like the, you know, the heavens opened up and you're just, like, thrown right back into the middle of winter and-I think there, you know, there's some people you talk to are like, "Meh, meh, meh, meh, meh, 12:19 you know, winter sucks." Right. You know, I, I was re- I was ready for spring. 12:23 But, I mean, for me, and I think for a lot of other people that really enjoy winter activities, I mean, this is just like, it makes me appreciate it so much more than if I hadn't had that experience. 12:35 So I'm just like, you know, I wanna get out there and enjoy every minute I can [laughs] Right... these just killer conditions. 12:41 Well, in, in all honesty, in the first week in March, if you're already planning on spring, you're... Come on. It's the first week in March. You, you're, you're in the upper Midwest, you're in Michigan. 12:54 Y- y- you can't bank on being spring already. No. You, you know something's gonna happen. Yeah. It, it, that's- You know?... 12:59 and that's why, you know, like, all, like, we, we ended up helping the, you know, our, one of our local cross-country ski setups, you know, to kind of put away all their grooming equipment and stuff like that. 13:08 And I'm- Right... you know, the whole time people are there, "Aren't, aren't you gonna, you know, put your stuff away?" No, no, no. It's March. It's Michigan. Right. Anything can happen, you know? [laughs] Right. 13:16 Yeah, yeah. The, you know, the, the, the hope of, um, you know, winter spring's eternal when it comes to like- Yeah... March in Michigan, so. No, it was good. 13:27 Uh, one thing I want to mention is that my zipper on my frame bag broke, and I had to get rid of my frame bag for two weeks, and I just want to give a plug to all the, um, seamstresses out there- [laughs]... 13:39 that make frame bags, 'cause life without a frame bag on a fat bike really, really sucks. Um- Yeah, y- y- you're amazed how much you miss it when you don't have it. 13:47 Oh my gosh, I had to strap on that CamelBak, and y- I was limited to what I could take, and I had to have this thing slung over my back. 13:54 And I'm, I mean, I'm, I'm a CamelBak fan, but I'm more of a frame bag fan, and I really think that that is something, along with studded tires, that you need to have, um, in your, in your arsenal of things to ride with during the winter. 14:11 Well, and I think, I think it depends on where you ride and sort of what the scenario is, you know? I, I, I don't think a frame bag is ever bad. I mean, I'm, I'm a huge frame bag advocate. 14:23 Um- I'm thinking about keeping it for the w- summer. Yeah. No, and, and that's what I was just gonna say. Okay. 14:27 It's like, whether it be, you know, sticking a bladder in there, you know, so you have just like easier compa- You know, like, you have way more capacity than you would if you just had bottles, and it's really easy to end up, you know, carrying it, and it's low on the bike, and all this other kind of stuff. 14:40 Or whether it's, you know, the winter and you're throwing a bunch of extra sort of, I mean, for lack of a better way to put it, emergency gear. Right. 14:47 You know, the frame bags are awesome, but it's like, you know, I could see where if you were riding a trail system that's like, you know, you got three to five mile [laughs] loop or whatever- Okay... 14:59 and you're just doing a couple laps of it- Sure... and you ride out there for an hour and a half, where, you know, you might not really appreciate a frame bag. Mm-hmm. 15:07 But in our area, where you kind of are out in the boonies- Yeah... 15:11 you know, it's like, I like having a little extra insurance and, you know, having a down jacket, having, you know, some extra warm gear, you know, like an extra hat, extra gloves. 15:21 Some of those just little things, I mean, I just feel like peace of mind. And there's sometimes that, you know, it really pays off, you know, where you're like, man, I'm so stoked that I've got- Yeah... 15:30 this along, you know? [laughs] I- I'm really glad I was able to switch out my gloves, 'cause the other ones I had sweated out in and- Totally. You know? 15:36 I super miss that, and I'm, I'm glad that my frame bag is back into my life. Yeah, frame bags are awesome. With an, with an, with an awesome new zipper. 15:43 [laughs] Um, and then lastly, I, I want to make mention of this, is that, uh, I, I happened to look on, uh, Strava, um, your total mileage so far this year versus my total mileage this year. 15:55 [laughs] And, um, you're only up by about 250 miles. Oh, that's it? That, that's it, yeah. Okay. Which that's a lot of miles right there. [laughs] Okay? And, and I guess my question to you- How many miles have... 16:07 I don't know how many miles we have. You're over 500 already. Okay. Yeah. And, you know, we're what? Two months in. Yeah, yeah. Okay. All right. Uh, what's the deal with these big 70-mile rides, 45-mile rides? 16:23 [laughs] It's 22 degrees outside. Okay, okay. All right. So, so, um, one of the thing, yeah, we got, we gotta put- Oh... we gotta put the long ride into context. Okay. 16:32 And then we gotta talk about, like, the future and stuff like that. 16:35 I got a f- I, I got a funny story, and maybe we'll just edit it out, but so I'm driving over to Nine Mile Bridge the other day, coming off of Udall Hills Road, and I see this pink Salsa bike go by me, this gravel bike go by me, with a big red beard. 16:50 [laughs] And I was like, I know exactly- I know who that is... exactly who that is. So I go to the parking lot, I pull in, and I walk back up to the road, and I'm like, I flag him down. 16:59 And I was like, "Matt, what are you doing out here?" [laughs] "Th- there's, y- you're gravel grinding on ice." He's like, "I just had a couple, uh, pucker moments back there [laughs] on Firetower Road." 17:09 [laughs] And he was testing out the 100 Miler. Who, who we're speaking about is the man, the myth, the beard- Yes... Matt Ecker. Matt Ecker. He, awesome guy. Yep. He lives down in Grand Rapids. 17:18 Um- Regional hero, you know?... races for Salsa. He's a total stud on the bike. Right. And just a cool guy. Yeah. Um, and he just does these monster rides. Yeah. 17:29 You know, so- He's testing out the 100 Miler coast to coast. Yeah. Uh, uh, on s- s- ice roa- I mean, he had- Wow... he had cyclocross tires on, uh, gravel tires on, and I was just like, "What are you crazy, dude?" 17:40 Wow, that's craziness, man. Yeah. I w- I have, I haven't wanted to even touch all that stuff. No. And I know exactly what I'd be getting into, like do I need studs? Do I need this? Do I... 17:48 You know, I, I'm not touching that. Oh, he did 100 miles, and it was, it was, it was h- [laughs] He said it was pucker moments, you know? Man. Yeah. Yeah, he's a stud. But anyway, your long rides. Oh, okay. 17:59 So w- I, I guess what you're referencing is- [laughs]... I ended up doing kind of a long ride, um, I don't know. It was a few weeks back. Yeah. It was sometime in February. Yeah. 18:10 And it was r- I, it ended up being 70-some miles, and- Psh, whatever, man... I don't know. I, I think the total clock time was like eight hours, but really the ride time was like six and a half or something. 18:21 Okay.But I mean- I think I did 12 that day, but yeah. Okay. [laughs] 12 hours, I assume, right? No, of course. [laughs] Yes, exactly. 18:28 [laughs] Um, no, so it was, it was one of those things where I was talking with, with another guy who's a, you know, a friend of Matt Eckers and, you know, another Grand Rapids guy. 18:36 Um, uh, I'd been talking with him, Tyler, um- Oh, Tyler, yeah... 18:41 yeah, about like laying out this 100-mile route, and we were gonna end up having kind of a informal event, you know, where we do a 100-mile, uh, fat bike- Yeah... whatever you want to call it, ride, race, you know? 18:53 KBS Fun Fondo. Yeah, yeah- [laughs]... basically. 18:56 You know, in Manistee area because what we can do is we, you know, can make this big loop, and we can link up, you know, you know, 30, 40 miles easily of like kind of groomed trail. Right. 19:06 And then we've got a bunch of good snowmobile trail that, you know, can kind of link up, and then we got, you know, the beach riding to boot. 19:13 So it's, you know, kind of laid out this really nice 100-mile route that you could end up doing. And, um, you know, things ca- got in the way. We never actually ended up planning it, but- Right... 19:25 I kind of wanted to, I, you know, I still was like, damn it, you know, I, 19:30 before the snow goes away, I want to pick, you know, if, if the stars align and the weather's really good, I want to pick that day where the snow's really fast- Yeah... 19:39 temperatures aren't too cold so I can- Wind's working with you. Yeah, exactly. Just like if, if all these things, you know, all these boxes get checked- Right... I want to try to end up doing this. Sure. 19:49 And, you know, I didn't think I was really up for 100 miles 'cause I hadn't really put in those kind of miles yet, but I was like, you know, I can do the loop and I can chop off some of the extraneous stuff. Right. 19:58 So, you know, I mean, I, I, I don't remember what the, exactly what the stats are on it, but it worked out to be somewhere around like 35, 40 miles of groomed single track that day. Yeah. I, I left from my house. Right. 20:10 I, you know- You rode a dike. [laughs] Yep, exactly. Yep. I, I rode on a dike. [laughs] Yes. Yeah. [laughs] Exactly. Sorry. [laughs] Yep. Uh, [laughs] 20:21 yeah, there's a, there's a place where you got a couple different options- [laughs]... and, you know, it was like I could ride a l- along a dike along the Manistee River. Right. So I rode a dike along the Manistee River. 20:31 Um, uh- On a dike, yes. Yep, yep. Uh, [laughs] um, you know, and link, and I linked up with several of the different, you know- Right... trail systems that we groom. Yeah. Um, a bunch of other just cool stuff. 20:43 Uh, one of the other local guys joined me for like, you know, I think 35, 40 miles of it. Right. Um, just a really good time. Yeah. And, you know, it was like... 20:52 And, and then on top of it, um, some people might have seen that, that lake, I don't know, what is it, MXZ 400. Oh. Whatever. The super, super burly- The moon boots... winter boots. Yeah, the, my, my moon boots. 21:03 Um, I've been testing those, and that was like a perfect opportunity, so I'm like- Gotcha... my feet aren't gonna get cold. Right. I can just bring along some extra gear and I'll be totally good. 21:11 So, you know, it's like there was a, there was just a bunch of different things that kind of aligned where I'm like, okay, this is just too good to pass up. I got to go out. I got to do this ride. 21:20 And I knew I wasn't up for the 100. I kind of, you know, pulled the eject cord- Right... you know, to get back home. Should have been my house for a beer. Yeah, exactly. [laughs] I'm like, "Drive me home, please." Yeah. 21:32 Yeah. So- How, how do you, how do you dress for an eight, 10-hour ride, you know, not s- you don't want to sweat. You don't want... You want to keep moving. You want to eat. 21:44 I mean- It's, it's, it- Can you talk a little bit about that? [laughs] Well, I mean, it's, it's- I don't know how the hell I would do that... it's a combination of, you know, dressing and pace. 21:53 Um, and you're kind of feathering the two of them. You know, you, you... I luckily, I know my gear well enough- Yeah... that I, I'm like, okay, this is what the temperatures are gonna be. 22:03 This is what the wind's gonna be. So if I wear this and I work moderately hard, but I don't like work really hard- Yeah... I'm not gonna sweat a whole bunch. Okay. 22:12 You know, basically, it's gonna evaporate off at the same- Right... rate that I'm sweating. Right. And I'm gonna stay dry. Okay. 22:17 And that, that's the big thing is that you just kind of got to do moisture management, or at least for me, 'cause I'm a, I'm a sweater. Yeah. 22:23 You know, so, you know, as a matter of just kind of doing moisture management and, you know, just not going too hard. 22:29 And, and you know, and, and that aligns exactly with what you want to do on a really long wi- ride anyways. But you need to go hard enough to stay warm though, too. Yeah, yeah. Okay. 22:37 So, you know, it's like I, I've got a couple... I mean, I, I've got this Patagonia jacket from four years ago. I don't remember what... 22:45 It was, it's designed for like, they describe it for high aerobic activity, so like cross-country skiing and stuff like that. Okay. And it's got, you know, a v- a variety of different ways you can vent it. 22:54 It's kind of a soft shell type- Gotcha... you know, thing. And I know that's super versatile. I can wear that anywhere from 10 degrees up to, you know, 35 degrees. Okay. 23:04 And I can vent it enough and, you know, batten it down enough that I can handle anything in there. Right. So on this ride when I started off, it was, you know, upper teens, and- Uh-huh... 23:14 I rode for a few hours and, you know, was comfortable and then- Okay... you know, you know, kind of shed a few under layers. Right. And then by the time I finished the ride, it was, you know, low 30s. Okay. 23:26 I don't remember exactly what it was. Uh, but it was sunny and nice and, and, you know, I kind of... You, you can set up this loop so that the, the beach sections, in this case, I had a nice tailwind. Yeah. 23:36 So, you know, when I was kind of the most tired, you know, like 60 miles in or- Yeah... you know, 55 miles in and I was like, okay- You're doing-... hoist the spinnaker and- Right, right... 23:45 you know, head with the tailwind, you know? You're doing all the climbs on the beach, right, yeah. Yeah, exact- [laughs]... yeah, exactly. 23:50 You know, so and it's like, you know, we had awesome beach conditions at that point and some things like that, so- Okay... 23:54 it was like, you know, all, like I said, all these different conditions that I'd kind of laid out there to be like, okay, I need to have this, I need to have this, I need to have this to be able to do it, all were there, and it was just, it was an awesome ride. 24:05 So you've got to get out and you've got to try the... You've got to figure out what works for you, and what doesn't work for you before you dive into this, you know? I, yeah. I mean- Totally... 24:14 unless you're just- Yeah... super hardy, you know? Yeah. You, you better know- Yeah... your stuff and, like, just be familiar with it enough to know, okay, this is gonna work for me for a really long time. Gotcha, yeah. 24:23 Okay. Well, that's interesting. And, and you're, you're, you know how to feed yourself too along the way, and I think that's one thing that, uh, a- actually for today's ride, I think people forgot to eat. Yep. 24:33 And by the time you're not f- by the time you're thinking, I need to eat, it's-It's too late. It's too late, yeah. Well, I mean- Same thing with hydration too, and it's especially in the winter- Yeah... 24:44 forgetting to hydrate. Yeah. You know? Oh, yeah, totally. It, and it's, it's really easy to screw up your hydration because you don't realize you're sweating. Right. 24:51 And you don't realize you need to drink as much, but, you know, you're typically in really dry environments- Yeah... and y- y- [laughs] you actually have to end up consuming quite a few liquids in order to stay hydrated. 25:01 Gotcha. So, you know, I, you know, I put in a bunch of, you know, three, four-hour rides this winter- Yeah... and, you know, I, I had a real solid base. 25:09 And, you know, I, I will say after doing the Colorado Trail last year, it's kind of like how you'll, you'll hear professional road cyclists talk about how, you know, a Grand Tour will change you, you know? Yeah. 25:19 And it's like, you know, it kind of changes how, you know, your, your, your food needs and your, you know, your endurance and all these other kind of things. 25:26 And I kind of feel like the same thing happened with me and the Colorado Trail. Okay. And I don't know if it's just that I got 25:31 more sensitive to tell the, you know, the signs of, oh, okay, I'm starting to lose my shit, [laughs] you know? Right. So I need to do this, you know? Okay. Um, and be, be more in touch with that. Yeah. 25:42 So I can fend that stuff off bef- before it becomes a major issue. Yeah. But, you know, all that kind of helps and for me to just be able to drop. [laughs] Yeah. You, you know now when you need potato chips. Yeah. Yeah. 25:52 [laughs] Right. Exactly. Yep. [laughs] Okay. Gotcha. Interesting. Interesting. Yeah, yeah. But, but these long rides though, let's get back to that though. Yeah. What, what's coming down the pipe for you here? 26:02 So there's this, this- Back to the bearded man. Yeah. There's this gravel r- like, it's, the... I'm gonna use race with quotations around it. Um- Yeah... 26:12 uh, because it's not a race for me, but there's a gravel race ride, um, called the Coast to Coast, and it, it literally goes from the eastern coast of the Lower Peninsula of Michigan to the western coast. 26:26 In case you are unfamiliar with the state of Michigan, but it is a peninsula that looks like a hand, and we are going, we are going from the, uh, the index finger over to the pinky- Yes... in one ride. Yeah. 26:40 It's 210 miles. Okay. Yeah. And, 26:43 you know, I guess at, at this point I would, I would have to say that I'm, I'm lying to myself and to anybody who I'm talking to if I didn't say that this is kind of one of those things where it's a little bit of a, a feeler situation for doing the Tour Divide. 27:00 Oh. Because- The first I've heard of this. [laughs] Because, so what I did was I took, like, my old school 29er mountain bike, which I've been using as a single speed. Yeah. 27:13 Um, Ti frame, uh, Ti Quarin frame, um, a Niner fork, um, and I set that up with drop bars. 27:24 And, you know, obviously it's got plenty of clearance, and because gravel tires are, you know, skinnier and therefore a smaller diameter, it kind of drops down the bottom bracket- Okay... 27:34 and it gets it almost exactly where it needs to be in order to ride well on gravel and be, like, really nice and stable and some stuff like that. Okay. 27:41 So, um, I guess long story short, I kind of, I ran all the numbers this winter. I'm like, damn, this thing's pretty sweet. 27:50 And I still have the ability to run, like, a three-inch tire on the front and a 2.4-inch tire on the rear. Okay. So, you know, I could go monster cross or whatever, you know. I can, I can- Sure... 27:59 you know, that's more like a setup I would u- run on the Tour Divide, and then I can s- kind of test out and see how, you know, a drop bar setup, you know, feels for my hands- Right... my wrists on these- Right... 28:09 like, really long endurance rides and stuff like that. Yeah. Which, um, and, and I guess then the other thing with the Tour Divide is 28:17 you've got long stretches of gravel where you could be fighting a headwind forever, and this Coast to Coast ride goes from the East Coast to the West Coast, so you're heading west the whole way, which is the predominant wind direction. 28:28 Right. So it's pretty much a guarantee you're gonna have a headwind for a good chunk of this race. Right. 28:32 So, you know, like, I've got aero bars on there, which is something that I would kind of think is a, a gimme for me doing the Tour Divide. Yeah. So, you know, that, that's another aspect of it. 28:42 So I'm ba- I guess long story short, this bike setup is kind of me dipping a toe in the water to see, okay, what would a drop bar mountain bike setup be like? 28:56 And this is, I'm, I'm running gravel tires and some stuff like that, but there's gonna be times that I drop, you know, even up to plus tires, you know, mountain bike p- to plus tire sizes on there and screw around with this thing and do big rides and do some stuff like that. 29:10 And, like, this Coast to Coast thing, it's, it's in our backyard. So I mean, I can just leave from my house and I can ride, you know, 100, 150 mile loops that include the last half of this race or, 29:26 you know, trails and roads and stuff like that in that area of the last half of this race and, you know, kind of just really dial in this whole sort of setup that would translate really well to doing Tour Divide. Hm. 29:41 Because, uh, so it's, things, the stars are starting to align. I think I'm gonna try to do the Oregon Timber Trail this summer. So that's gonna be [laughs] um- God, I wish you guys could see my face right now. 29:56 [laughs] Oh my gosh. So okay. So the Oregon Timber Trail, um, the, what the, what... The, it's a, it's a really new trail. 30:03 It was, it was really kind of only first opened up last year, and it's a 670-mile trail that goes- Nothing... from north to south in Oregon. Okay. It starts at the, you know, the, the California/Oregon border- Okay... 30:19 in the middle of nowhere, and then I think it's, what is it? The Fremont Tier is the first part. There's four sort of areas you ride through in Oregon. It goes north to south? 30:30 Uh, most people ride it from the southern end of Oregon to the northern end of Oregon. Okay. So you basically ride from the California border up to the Hood River, which is the border with Washington State. 30:40 Okay.And there's four different kind of chunks to this. The first part is more higher alpine, kind of typical. It's not super high. I think the, the high... 30:52 You, you reach the highest point of the whole trail, which is, like, around 8,500 feet- Okay... in the first part. [clears throat] But it's, you know, kind of typical wooded, more alpine area. And then, [sighs] 31:03 I'm trying to remember what... I, I, I think the next part, you go into high desert. I might have that wrong. I might, I might have my order of these sections wrong. And then there's, like, a, a rainforest section. Oh. 31:16 And then there's a volcanic section. And I, I definitely have my order wrong. Okay. Um, 'cause I think the volcanic section's the third part. 31:24 So you've, you've got these just four distinctly different ecosystems as you kind of cross the state. Wow. Yeah. So, um, they're kind of ramping up to do that. Um- All right... I'm really stoked about that. 31:38 And I guess, and it kind of, to keep, to give context of w- where this fits in, the... There, there's been... The... It's, it's a really new trail. Okay. 31:48 So it's, it's, there was some funding for it, you know, to kind of get it lumped in with this kind of a National Scenic Trail kind of stuff, um, similar to a lot of o- the other trails. 31:59 And they're comparing it very similar to, like, the Colorado Trail and the Arizona Trail, which are two of the other, like, really predominantly single track bikepacking routes. Right. 32:12 But both of those are really hiking routes, so they're not biking trails. They're hiking routes that have been adapted to bikepacking. Okay. Whereas this is predominantly a mountain bike trail. Oh. 32:24 So it has a similar amount of single track. 32:28 I mean, pretty much all these, these trails that I'm talking about are about 50% single track, and then, um, this is not des- Like, like the Colorado Trail, there's tons of hike-a-bike because it's a hiking trail. 32:40 Mm-hmm. You know, it's like I, I hiked a ton in that one. Right. Whereas with this, this is more des- trail designed to be a mountain bike trail. Sweet. And, um, some of it was kind of in disrepair. 32:51 It hadn't seen a lot of love. But they've been just doing tons and tons and tons and tons of work to clear it out and get it, you know, in good shape. 32:59 So it's, it really, all, all the indicators that I've got are this is shaping up to be one of the premier bikepacking routes, you know, that you could end up doing that is... 33:11 It, it's not like a Tour Divide thing where you, it's a gravel road- Yeah... ride predominantly. Yeah. This is predominantly a mountain bike route. Ken, I'm kind of miffed. Why? 33:23 Well, you're revealing all this information not only to me right now, but to everybody else that listens to this goddamn podcast. [laughs] Um, and I, and I thought that I was a little bit more important, 33:35 only slightly, than the other people that listen to us talk about this shit and- Well-... now th- now you're revealing this. 33:43 I thought you were doing these long rides just for a simple reason of going from one side of Michigan to the other side, and now- Nope... we're talking Tour Divide. We're talking- [laughs]... 33:51 Oregon, freaking barely, barely been dug into the ground trail. And I'm sorry, but as a JV captain- [laughs]... of the, uh, cycling club, uh, I, I, I think I'll just meet you in the parking lot from now on. 34:07 [laughs] I think that's gonna be it. Wow. I had no idea this was going on. No. This is great. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So- Tour Divide, sweet. Yeah. You had talked about the... 34:15 We talked about the Oregon thing before, and I knew that that was kind of in the back of your mind, but Tour Divide, wow. Well, now I don't- That's awesome... I, you know, 34:23 I don't wanna talk too seriously about Tour Divide because, I mean, it's, it's obviously not happening this year. No. It's just- No, no... it's, it's one of those things where, uh- Well, sooner than later, though, I bet. 34:34 Yeah. I mean, it's, it's within the next couple years potentially. Yeah. And- Nice, nice... 34:38 you know, it's like, it's just one of those things where, you know, through, like, the Colorado Trail and then coming up with the Oregon Timber Trail and some of these other things, you know, it's just kind of testing the body and seeing what it, what it puts up with and what it doesn't put up with and kind of getting to know yourself a little better and kind of, you know, feeling out, okay, is, you know, is the Tour Divide something that I wanna do? 34:58 Right. And, you know, it, well, actually it's, is it something that, uh, is feasible for me to do? I know it's something I wanna do. Yeah. You know? 35:06 And, you know, I don't, I'm not wanting to go out there and do it as a race. Mm-hmm. You know, I don't wanna try to, you know, be competitive. Mm. I wanna go out and experience it. Most people don't. 35:17 You know, most people just do it to get it done. Yeah. 35:20 And, you know, and, and that's one of the things I really dig about what they're doing with this Oregon Timber Trail is, like, they're, they're specifically saying, "We don't want people going out there for fastest known times. 35:31 We don't... That's not the experience we want people to have," because this bikepacking thing is really foreign to this area. Mm-hmm. People don't understand it. There's... 35:41 You, you go through all these different remote areas. Like, the first half of it, it's... They say that it's gonna take you 20 to 30 days to do it. I think realistically it can be done in 15 days fairly comfortably. 35:53 Okay. Um, uh, I think it'd be done, if you were going uncomfortably, a lot quicker than that. Right. 35:59 But, um, you know, you're going through these really remote areas, and the communities aren't used to seeing bikepackers and things like that, and they're like, you know, y- it's important for you to interact with people. 36:10 It's important for you to, you know, kind of be an ambassador for, you know, this bikepacking thing because you're, you're kind of the vanguard going out there into these- Oh... communities. 36:22 And- Never thought about that. Yeah. And it, you know, and this is something that has, could have a very positive economic difference. They better have some chips. N- Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. 36:31 [laughs] Chips, yeah, and, like, uh, maybe a, a... I don't think I'm gonna run into too many, uh, trail angels out there giving me hot dogs and- [laughs]... Coke and whatever else I ended up getting there and chips. 36:40 But no, that's a good point, though. But- That it's something, they're like, "Whoa, what's going on here?" Yeah. You got- And so, you know, I'm, I'm kind of working some angles to do some cool stuff. 36:49 Um, so-Where there might end, we might be able to end up, you know, producing some good material from it. Gotcha. You know? And, uh- Hmm. Yeah, and riding with some cool guys- All right... and doing some stuff like that. 37:00 And, you know, it's, it's too early to kinda get into those details, but I'll- Nah, we'll do it when we're done recording, 'cause I wanna know about this. [laughs] All right, I'll give you the inside scoop then. 37:09 And I'm gonna say within 10 years you might be in Alaska, uh, finishing up right now up there too. Well, I mean, i- to b- be honest, it's one of those things if I had confidence in myself, I would do it in a heartbeat. 37:20 Yeah. But, you know, th- this is all just kind of a process of where you're feeling out, okay, what are my personal limits? What... You know what I mean? And, and, and along those lines- Yeah... 37:29 I never thought previously that something like the Iditarod or whatever- Yeah... would be a doable goal for me until this year. And then, you know, when we had the, the apocalyptic snow dump- Sure... 37:43 you know, I was outside for eight to 12 hours a day- Right... in, you know, single digits and lower. Butt cold, yeah. Yeah, exactly. Day on, day in, day out. Yep. And I was like, "Pff, this isn't bad." I just... 37:56 You know, if I, I, I, if I learn how to dress and, you know, kind of, once again, know your body- Yep... know your systems and stuff like that, y- you know, you can be really comfortable out here. Hmm. 38:04 And that's an experience that I would love to get an opportunity- Wow... to do. So, you know, it's just, you know, this is kind of just probing, what can, what can you do, and, you know, checking it out. 38:16 Uh, on the Instagram, if you check us out on the Instagram, I think the title is, uh, A Dude Who Knows A Lot About Fat and Plus Bikes and A Dude That Doesn't. [laughs] Um, I being the one that doesn't. 38:31 W- Oh, you- Well-... don't give yourself enough credit. Well, I, my ass is never doing the Tour Divide, I'll tell you that. [laughs] And I'm not even k- If I go to Alaska, it's gonna be in a cruise- [laughs]... 38:39 looking at whales and shit out there, okay? I'm not riding my bike up there for 350 miles, let alone 1,000. That's- [laughs]... that's just crazy shit. I can't... Good lord. Um, w- let's take a break. 38:51 Yeah, I think we should. Holy cow. We'll be right back to talk about what's on our list of things to talk about. 38:59 [laughs] [upbeat music] Welcome back, campers. 39:23 Wow, that was a great first session. Yeah, yeah. Whew. Little bit of... Yeah, a little bit going on. Let's get back into some technical stuffs. Yeah, I agree. Stuffs. Stuffs. I said stuffs. 39:33 Well, you know, it's the cat's pajamas, so whatever. [laughs] Um, real quick, some tires. We, we get emails. If you wanna email us, feel free. Uh, Fat Camp Podcasters- @, uh, plural... plural, yes. Yeah. 39:47 That's a Gmail account. Um, shoot us an email. But we get a lot of emails about tires, and usually we talk about tires once every other show- Dead Gnarls... or every... Yeah, exactly. Yeah. 39:58 Um, this winter though, I think you and I used the same studded setup, right? Yeah, you and I have been running, uh, Dillinger 5s on the front and the Terrene Wasiak 4.6 on the rear studded also. Right. 40:08 And- And, and w- kind of going back to what we talked about, having to... It's really important to have a pair of studded tires in your quiver. Right. 40:15 Um, both of us have the ability to switch between kind of like a, a deep powder setup and then our, our little bit quicker, icier setup. Sure. This is our icy setup. Right. But man, that is a versatile setup. Yeah. 40:29 Um, and I even kept them on when things turned to dirt and there was a little bit of snow here and there. Yep. And they, they seemed fine. 40:36 I wanted to switch over to Jumbo Jims, but, uh, I was advised not to because of, well, w- b- because of what happened. Yeah. Right. 40:43 Um- Well, you know, and then, and I guess, you know, it's just, it's a really versatile setup. Right. 40:48 You know, you can run it in softer conditions, and you've got enough float that you can get through pretty much everything. Yeah. 40:53 And it's aggressive enough that you can, you know, really kinda deal with some loose conditions. Yep. 40:59 But it still rolls quick enough that, you know, if you're, if you're running with somebody with, you know, a four-inch racy setup or whatever, you're not, you're not at that big a disadvantage. 41:08 You know, so it's just, it's a great all-arounder setup. And when the need arises, we'll always go back to, as we has for the past two years, talked about this, Bud and Lou when necessary. Yeah. Yeah. 41:18 And, you know, and I had a period where we ended up having to, you know, some real just, like, kinda deep midwinter- Sure... you know, snow where even if it's groomed, it's just not consolidated. Yep. 41:28 And I was running Bud and Lou, and it just blew my mind again. It was like- I ran into a guy. Um, I walked into the bar. There was a guy with a set, uh, on the... 41:37 He's sitting at the bar, and on the back of his shirt it says, "One less car," with a picture of a bike. [laughs] And then he's got a baseball cap on. It says, "45 North." And I was like, "Hmm." Ooh, okay. 41:48 "You're not from here." Yeah, one of the tribe. Exactly. So, um, I struck up a conversation. His name's Tom. He's from Marquette. He rides with Evan and those guys up there. Oh, okay. Sweet. 41:57 And, um, he spoke just as highly of Bud and Lou in- Yeah... for midwinter conditions. Um, he also made mention of Flowbeast and Thunderbeast, but that, that's a different... We haven't tried those quite- Good tires. 42:09 Yeah. Yeah. That's another good setup. So it was refreshing to hear someone who, um, rides groomed stuff, Marquette- Yep... you know, a, a snow mecca for fat biking, um, 42:19 but to s- to say the praises of Bud and Lou, you know? Yeah. Bud and Lou are still like- They did something right... one of my best, you know, like, most favorite- Yeah... like, all-around tires. Right. 42:29 You know, it's like, tho- tho- those are just great. Um, but the Cake Eaters. [laughs] Yeah. So I, I even- You gotta try those out... I g- I got a pair of four-inch Cake Eaters to try out with studs. Right. 42:41 And you're, and there's an article on, at fatbike.com. Yep, yep. And I, you know, I, y- so, you know, you've got the, these- [laughs] I laughed when I... Gosh. Oh, my gosh. 42:53 [laughs] I laughed so hard as i- as the article got older and older and older, and people were able to comment on it. But- Well, because I mean, people, people were really... I mean, so I raved about this tire. 43:03 They called you outI, I raved about this tire. Yeah. And, and the reason why I raved about it is because I kind of look at a four-inch tire like this as, as being a special purpose tire. You know? 43:14 Uh, we get enough snow, I can't... This is not my, like, go-to everything tire. Okay. You know, this, this is a tire that I'm gonna pull out when I wanna go really fast. Okay. 43:24 And the conditions, you know, you got like spring snow and it's, it's, you know, that kind of stuff. You know, it's super fast conditions. It's... You know, it's not like... I'm not going for the most versatile setup. 43:35 And I guess, you know, this is where I kind of e- erred in my r- review in that I maybe should have made that a little bit more specific. Okay. 43:42 You know, I kind of described it as, you know, for what it is, this tire is awesome. Yeah. Because it's a super, super, super, super, super fast tire. Right. And very capable. I mean, um, 43:53 it's got a little bit different stud design, so it's... but it still rolls really fast. Um, it... Like, when you pump it up, it rolls incredibly fast- Okay... because the center portion of it is, um... 44:06 It's got a high density of knobs and stuff like that, but then it's got these big shoulder knobs. So when you lean it over, it grips really well. Right. 44:12 And then if conditions start to get softer, you let air out of it and the tire kind of flattens out and it... I... The way [laughs] I kind of look at it is you deploy- Right... the side knobs- Yeah... 44:23 which help a lot in your drive traction, as well as in your cornering traction. So it gives a lot of versatility to a tire that is primarily a race tire in my kind of world. Yeah. Um, 44:38 it allows it to be acceptable once conditions start to go to shit, basically. Right. You know, as like start getting really soft. Right. 44:45 Whereas, you know, a four-inch, you know, moderately knobbed tire, you know, that's, that can be a really, really, really bad combination once... 44:54 You know, like i- if- if you're dealing with a spring day where it starts out below freezing, everything's hard and fast, and this tire's ideal, but then the sun comes out and it starts to get above freezing, and you're starting to ride in mashed potatoes. 45:06 Sure. Sometimes, you know, a racey tire will just suck in those conditions. Okay. And this one doesn't. You know, you let it... 45:13 You let air out, and the tire definitely slows down compared to other tires, but it, it still is pretty darn grippy. I mean, it's still really controllable. It, it just, it feels really good. 45:23 So I kind of felt like, man, this thing's got some serious range. You could... You know, I'm, I'm not gonna throw on a pair of tires the morning of the race or the day before the race, and, 45:37 you know, um, you know, based upon whatever the, you know, the, the, you know, the forecast or whatever is. I'm gonna, I'm gonna look like several days out. I'm gonna put this stuff on. I'm gonna end up riding it. 45:49 I'm gonna like, you know, make sure that it's sealed up [laughs], you know? Right. I'm, I'm not gonna make last minute changes because with tubeless and all that stuff, you, you... a lot can go wrong. 45:58 And this is the kind of tire that you could do that with and still have confidence. Okay, if the forecast isn't 100% right, I'm still gonna have an acceptable setup. 46:11 But, you know, you would've thought that I like h- told people that their newborn baby was like, you know, ugly or something- Right... like the way people reacted. Yeah. 46:20 You know, 'cause they're like, "You know, this tire has better traction," or, you know, "This tire is this, this," or, "This tire..." And it, y- y- they were 100% right. 46:28 You know, this is not the tire that, you know, is, you know, does everything well. Y- you can pick out a ton of tires that are gonna have better traction or whatever. Yeah. 46:38 But it's just, it's the, it's the range that this tire has in the racey realm- Okay... that makes it a, a really compelling tire. Gotcha. You know, and I think... 46:49 You know, I haven't ridden the 4.6, but just based upon how the four-inch tire works, I think the four-inch tire, or the, excuse me, the 4.6-inch tire would be a really compelling tire too. How's the four... 47:02 And I don't know if you can talk about this, but how is the Cake Eater different than the Wazzia? 'Cause aren't they both 4.6? Yeah. Yeah. Um- Okay. I think they're, they're basically the same casings. Okay. 47:11 But the difference is that the, the Wazzia, um, has the same height knobs basically from center to edge. Oh. So it, it doesn't roll anywhere near as fast. It's got way better traction. Okay. 47:26 The, the thing that I don't like about the Wazzia is that, um, all the knobs are kind of... Like, when you look at it and you're looking at it from sort of side to side- Mm-hmm... all the knobs are in rows. Oh. 47:38 So you've got like this, this, you know, extra space in between them. So when you run a Wazzia on the front, um, you get a lot of side slip to the tire. Ah. Um, because there's... 47:50 You know, like if, if you had staggered knobs, it would kind of stop the flow of material across the tire, but you don't have that. It's kind of like a paddle wheel. Mm. 47:59 So it's very easy for, you know, the, the thing to slip sideways. Gotcha. So even though it's aggressive, it's not that good a front tire because it tends to want to push more than you would like. Okay. 48:11 Whereas, you know, both tires, the Wazzia and the Cake Eater have similar, um, uh, you know, height side knobs, so when you lean them over, they both corner pretty similarly. Okay. 48:24 We might end up having some issues here. We got a dog that's about to whine. Okay. Um- That's all right, Murph. Uh, and sorry if you've been listening to the, the chewing of bones in the background. 48:35 I think it was very subtle. Okay, good. Yeah. [laughs] Um, so, you know, that's... I- The Wazzia's a great tire, especially on the rear. It's got really good drive traction because of those center knobs. Yeah. 48:47 But, um, you know, th- that's the reason why I run a Dillinger 5 on the front because it feels like it does a better job of cornering than the Wazzia does up front. Okay. 49:00 Um, whereas the Wazzia's got just great drive traction. Yeah. And then the Cake Eater, that's just a good all-rounder. I mean, it's like- Okay... 49:06 like I said, those big side knobs, once you lean it over, they really grip. Gotcha. But, you know, the center tread's really fast.So it's a little, it's a little bit different beast. 49:14 There's, there's somebody in one of the-- 49:17 I've written two reviews about the Cake Eaters at this point, and there's somebody who was like, "You know, I really w- uh, you know, really be curious about your comparison between the two." 49:24 And I've kinda given that now. Yeah. And they were also like, "You know, I wonder about running the more aggressive Wazi on the front and then the Cake Eater on the rear." And I wouldn't do that. Okay. 49:33 I, I think the Cake Eater is a really good tire to run front and rear, um, just a really balanced setup. 49:38 And if it doesn't have enough cornering traction for you, let a little air out and it just totally- It still hooks up?... still hooks up. Yep. Okay. Yep. Cool. 49:49 Um, another thing, moving on from tires, though, you switched-- you recently switched your chainrings? Yeah. 49:55 So, um, to give context, you know, this, this is, you know, a study of one, and this is-- I'm-- I, I guess the long story short, kinda to start this off, is I feel like I'm finally starting to really 50:07 understand the pros and cons of oval chainrings versus round chainrings. Huh. Okay. And, you know, oval chainrings have kind of been, you know, uh, the shit, you know? 50:19 [laughs] It's like, you know, people have been talking a lot about 'em. Oh, yeah. There's a lot of hype around 'em and stuff like that. 50:24 And, you know, a lot of people have kinda tried 'em and they're like, "Oh yeah, they're different, but, you know, I, I don't know necessarily if they're better or whatever." Um, little dog itching now. [laughs] Gotcha. 50:36 Sorry. Um, uh, and that, that's kind of where I've been at. 50:39 Um, I definitely could tell that, like last winter when I was running an oval chainring, there was a few times where I was like, "Okay, th-th-this definitely helps out traction-wise." Okay. 50:50 Um, and there's some real positives to it that way. And then I continued running them through the summer, and it just, it's been just kinda like this thing. 50:59 And then getting into winter I was running-- I started out the winter on older chainrings. They were, you know, they were already kinda worn. Yeah. 51:07 And by the time I got, you know, a couple months into winter, they were really worn and I'm like, "Okay, I just gotta swap this out." But I was feeling cheap, and I had some round chainrings- Okay... 51:17 you know, that I could swap on there. And I'm like, "Okay, I'm just gonna throw this on there and see how this works." What'd you notice? Well, um, it's way easier to spin a round chainring than it is an oval chainring, 51:30 but you do get distinctly better, um, traction and power transfer at slower RPMs. So depending on what your setup is. 51:41 You know, kinda, kinda to give you scenarios, um, if, if I'm talking like midwinter conditions where you're kinda slogging it, you know, you're like, you're-- pretty much your entire ride is spent in the three biggest cogs on your cassette. 51:55 Right. And when you start to get up into the hills, you know, you're turning out, you know, like [laughs] 50, 60 RPMs. I mean, the oval ring is the bomb. Okay. Um, that's, that's totally where it's at. 52:09 'Cause of that power stroke? Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Exactly. It just, it, it really kind of just, it helps distribute that over a bigger area- Yeah... for lack of a better way of putting it. Okay. 52:18 It just, it really helps out, you know, as, as far as at low cadence applying traction. But once I start to try to get a- you know, above, like 90 RPMs- Yeah... you know, and definitely above 100 RPMs, it gets... 52:32 It-- I don't know. It's just there-- It, it feels lumpy. You know, it's like I, I have a hard time spinning it really fast. Really? Yeah. 52:38 So what happened was I switched over to the round ring, and this is when we had really, really good spring snow. Okay. So it, it's like hero snow. You had just great traction. Yeah. 52:48 So you could be out of the saddle, you could be in the saddle. Um, I guess the other thing to kinda add in here is that I'm pretty light right now. Yeah. So, uh- Reindeer Hill will do that to you. [laughs] Anyway. 52:59 Um, uh, so I don't, I don't know how to get... I-- Let me go on a little sidetrack here. Here we go, folks. So, um, 53:10 so if you pedal at a high cadence, you know, so high RPMs, um, you stress your lungs more than your legs. Right. And if you pedal at a low cadence, you stress your muscular system more than you do your aerobic system. 53:26 Big meat. Yeah. Yeah. [laughs] And, you know, so in other words, you know, it's like, and if, if you specifically train your muscular system to deal with that and you're a heavier guy, you can climb better, um, 53:41 you know, at a lower RPM compared to other people. You know, you kinda get the most out of yourself- Sure... you know, by doing that. 53:49 Or if you're really light, so in other-- you know, compared to other people, or however you wanna put it, you know, i- you, if you've got a-- and you can get, develop a smooth spin, you know, and you can stress your aerobic system, 54:00 okay, then that takes, you know, a little less taxing of your muscular system, and it can help out in the long run as far as your endurance and some things like that, because you're just, you're not, you're not burning matches to get up the climbs. 54:12 Right. It's, it's a little bit easier. Yep. And 'cause your, your aerobic system can take just a ton of load and it doesn't make a difference. Your muscles can only take so much for any given ride. 54:21 So, you know, there's, there's kind of benefits to both depending on what your physiology is. Okay. 54:27 So it kinda depends on if you are a more aerobically gifted or more muscular gifted athlete, and you can train either one of these categories. So if you're a pencil or are you a big pink eraser? Yeah. Yeah, exactly. 54:43 Yeah. Like, yeah. So, um, in previous years- I'm a big pink eraser. 54:48 [laughs] In previous years, you know, like, I mean, just for myself personally, you know, my percentage of body fat has been, like nine, 10% or whatever. I've been on the heavier end. And 55:00 I could then end up doing a lot of training to make myself very strong. Mm-hmm. And I would do lower RPM stuff- Right... and it would work out very well. So that's where the oval chainrings really come in handy. 55:10 But right now I'm, like low 180s. I'm like-You know, less than 6% body fat. So my- You're wafer thin, yes. 55:19 [laughs] Yeah, so, you know, it's like my VO2 max is considerably higher because I just-- I have less weight for, you know, my aerobic engine. Right. 55:27 So now what I'm finding is, okay, since I don't have as much muscle- Oh... if I pedal at a slow cadence- See where this is going?... 55:35 I, I burn up my, uh, my legs and I, you know, I don't really get as much out of myself as I could. 55:41 So if I spin a little quicker, I can, you know, basically take the, the load off my leg and put it on my aerobic system, 'cause that's what's better right now. So oval rings might be better for me then. 55:55 Well, the-- I guess this, this is kind of what... Like, th-this is where I feel like I've finally been like, ah, I get it. I understand where I wanna use one over the other. 56:03 So, you know, what happened is we had that spring snow. It's like hero snow. You've got great traction. It rolls really fast. 56:11 You know, so these are these, these situations where I can spin at a super high cadence and I can get out of the saddle. I can, you know, stay in the saddle. 56:18 I can do whatever, and it's all very, very, very smooth and no problem. Right. You know, it's like I'm further down in my cassette. I got... 56:26 I, I can, I can get up these climbs without using my littlest gear and just barely making it up it. Okay. You know? So in those situations, I was like, "Oh my God, the round rings are amazing. 56:38 I'm so-- It feels so much better to be able to spin." Mm-hmm. But then we got thrown back into winter. Yeah. And now all of a sudden, I'm spending all my time [laughs] in, like, my easiest three gears- Mm-hmm... 56:50 and just, you know, grinding to get up these hills. 56:53 And I'm noticing a significant lack of traction compared to what I had before in those just, like, you know, the 50, 60 RPMs, like, where you're just barely keeping going. 57:03 And you're like, you're feathering it, and you're like, "Okay, I can't put out any more power than this because I'm gonna spin." Mm-hmm, yep. 57:09 You know, it's like you're just totally, like, kind of feathering that limit of your traction. So it really just depends on what your situation is. Um, I guess that's the long story short. 57:19 If, you know, you are on a course, you're in a situation where you can spin, you know, the round rings are probably better. 57:27 Um, you, you can spin, you know, a 10 to 20 RPM quicker on those, but you gotta take advantage of that. Otherwise, you know, if you're kinda slogging it, you know, the, the oval rings are totally where it's at. 57:40 So when looking at the forecast, you might not only need to change your tires, you might need to change your, your, your- [laughs]... chaining as well. Yeah, I mean- Holy cow... 57:47 and, you know, and, and part of this also just depends on where you're riding. If you- a lot of your trails are really steep- Yeah... where, you know, you're just-- you're, you're barely making it up climbs. 57:56 And, you know, it's, it's that fight to, like, maintain traction and stuff like that. You know, and you're doing all these technical power moves and stuff. 58:02 And this, this is more of a summer thing than it is a winter thing. Yeah. The oval rings will be better. Yeah. But, you know, if you're on-- If you're doing a lot of smooth fire roads going up- Yeah... 58:11 and then you, you know, get to rip the downhills, you're probably better on a round ring. 58:16 Well, it's got me thinking about single speed then, 'cause in a single speed not only are you spinning, but you're also standing up to get up the hills. So- Well... how do you, how do you-- 58:25 What ring would you use on a single speed? Well, and I think, you know, I think that's really important. Um, and that's kind of a dilemma that I've been having on that. I think... 58:35 You know, I've, I've tr- I've, I traditionally always ran round 'cause that was what was around. No pun intended. 58:42 Um, and in the last year, I switched over to an oval ring, and I noticed I just-- I couldn't get my spin on and it really limited my upper range. Okay. 58:52 So I think for me, and this applies to me only, and I think everybody's gonna be different, um, since I have a much greater range of how I can ride it, 59:03 I think the round rings are better on my single speed because I've got better top end speed out of it. Okay. Huh. 59:11 You know, and, and the thing is when you're at such low RPMs, there's a lot you can do training-wise to kind of get a more complete pedal stroke as far as, you know, you know, kind of really pulling, you know, back at the lower portion- Sure... 59:24 of the stroke then pulling up. Scraping the dog shit off your shoe, yeah. Yeah, it-- that's exactly it. Yeah. 59:27 You know, the-- there's a lot of things you can do that way with the round rings to kind of smooth out your pedal stroke and increase that power zone that you can really put out. Um, whereas with the oval rings, 59:38 I, I feel like I get a little bit more sloppy and I kind of rely more on the ring, and then I can't spin at the same high RPM to really get the top end speed when you need it. That whole discussion makes a lot of sense. 59:51 I, I, I... You enlightened me. Like the, uh- Yes... Instagram says, uh, uh, someone who knows a lot and someone that doesn't. [laughs] Well, I am approaching someone who knows a lot now, so... 1:00:04 I, but I don't-- Geez, I don't-- Geez oh Pete. I don't- You know, what about, what, what, what about with a geared bike in the summer though? You know, plus bike in the summer? 1:00:13 Well, I, I don't think that there is a right or a wrong decision. Okay. I think, I think that's the first thing to say. Yeah. You know, there's not-- I'm not coming out strongly in one way or the other. Okay. 1:00:21 But, like, for instance, you know, when I go down to North Carolina, I know I'm gonna be dealing with some incredibly steep technical uphills. Right. So I'm gonna probably end up going for an oval ring- Okay... 1:00:33 when I go down there. Gotcha. Um, if I was going out to Colorado or some place like that where I, I'd be dealing more with a, like, a two-track-y climb where it'd be more spinnable- Yeah... 1:00:43 you know, for the up, and then I'd, like, rip the down- Right... I think a m- a more round ring would be a better setup. Huh. 1:00:48 Um, around here you've got a little more flexibility 'cause you don't have those, like, maximum gradient climbs where you're, like, really fighting. Sure. 1:00:58 So I think I'm gonna probably end up going with more round rings around here 'cause I can kind of spin up the climbs- Sure... and then, you know, rip the downhills. Okay. 1:01:08 So, you know, it just-- And everybody's gonna be different because like I said, this really is-- this is a balance of your aerobic capacity versus your muscular capacity. Right. 1:01:17 And, you know, you gotta kinda pick, okay, are you somebody who can push a bigger gear-And not tax your aerobic system because you're a heavier dude, or are you somebody who's like, you know, wafer thin, as you put it? 1:01:29 Sure. You know, like the whip it, and you're gonna wanna end up being a spinner. Gotcha. And then you wanna go round rings. Okay. Cool. So I don't know. 1:01:38 Hopefully, that helps other people decide 'cause- No, that's cool... I think, think they're, both are really good- Yeah... just in different ways. Right. Um, let's take another quick break. 1:01:52 [upbeat music] All right. So enough about that stuff. Um, 1:02:09 what's this DUB, this SRAM DUB thing? Okay. I caught, I caught it somewhere, but... So, um, SRAM had a recent announcement about, um, bottom brackets. Okay. Um, they got a new system. It's called DUB. Right. And 1:02:25 from, you know, reading about it online and things like that, it seems like there's a lot of misunderstanding about what this is and what it isn't, um, out there amongst a lot of riders. Um, this has caused quite a stir. 1:02:40 A lot of people saying, "Oh, why is SRAM creating a new standard?" They're not. Okay. You know, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. You know, why do they have to end up doing this? Why do they have to do that? 1:02:48 What they did makes a lot of sense. Um, so I kind of want to explain what the implications are for fat and plus, uh, cyclists. Okay. 1:03:00 Um, uh, you know, just kind of, you know, try to, you know, get some accurate information out there about it. So let, we need a little history lesson on cranks and bottom brackets- Okay... for this to make sense. 1:03:12 [chuckles] All right. So I apologize, but we got to go into the way back machine. That's all right. And we got to get into kind of the history of bottom brackets to understand where this is significant now. All right. So 1:03:26 back in the day, you know, you ended up having square taper bottom brackets. Right. And that was, you know, a fairly small diameter. It almost always ended up being steel. 1:03:36 You might be able to get a titanium one, but you definitely couldn't end up making an alloy one because it's, it's just so small a diameter, it wouldn't be stiff enough and strong enough. Okay. Um, 1:03:47 bottom brackets were like that for years. They worked great. You know, like, bearings held up and stuff. They just, they were a little heavy, a little flexy. 1:03:54 It was kind of a pain in the butt to take your cranks on and off. Sure. Um, so somebody in their infinite wisdom came up with, um... What is it? I think it was called the ISIS. Yeah. I-S-I-S- Right... standard. And, 1:04:08 um, Shimano came up kind of with their own thing, which was Hologram. And what that was is a bigger diameter bottom bracket spindle, but the bearings were still inside the frame. Okay. 1:04:23 So what happened is, you know, if you think about a threaded bottom bracket shell, you've only got so much space. Mm-hmm. 1:04:30 So if you make the bottom bracket spindle bigger, you take away the amount of space that the bearings have. So those bottom brackets had horrible, uh, bearing reliability. Okay. 1:04:44 Because you had all these just, like, dinky little bearings in there that would wear out super quickly. 1:04:50 So then things evolved, and what Shimano did is they released, I think they call it the Hologram 2, but what they did is they, they took the bearings from inside the frame, and they moved them outside the frame. Okay. 1:05:02 So you had these cups that would thread into the frame, and then the bearings would sit outside of it. Right. 1:05:07 And you had a bottom bracket spindle that was 24 millimeters in diameter that was, uh, permanently affixed to one of the crank arms, and it would slide through. 1:05:18 It, it, it essentially tightened up just like, um, a modern headset does in, in a headset does. Right. Yeah. 1:05:26 Where you've, you've got sort of a preload adjuster, and then you've got these pinch bolts that kind of hold everything together. Right. Um, 1:05:34 that, that's a, that was a design that I got to give a call-out here, um, that originally went back to Bullseye and was around years and years and years and years and years or years ago. Okay. 1:05:46 Um, I had a pair of Bullseye cranks. Gotcha. And loved them, except for the fact that they were a little f- like, funky, just... [laughs] Right. 1:05:56 It's, it was a dude, you know, making it in his machine shop instead of like a Shimano or a SRAM really coming off with a- Okay... a super polished product. 1:06:03 That aside, um, so Shimano wasn't really the first, but, um, Shimano's the one that popularized it. Um, and, 1:06:12 uh, I think it was actually a few years prior to that, um, Cannondale ended up, um, coming up with a new bottom bracket standard. It was called BB30. Right. 1:06:26 And it, it was basically made to address some of the issues like I talked about with how big the bottom bracket shell is, and how bi- how big the, the bottom bracket spindle can be, and, you know, how you're kind of fighting for real estate with, you know, the bearing size to have accurate, you know, you know, bearings that way. 1:06:45 But it, on top of addressing all those things, the, the BB30 bottom bracket shell is a lot bigger. 1:06:51 So when you're dealing with a, a bicycle frame that's got big tubes, and, you know, Cannondale being an oversized aluminum company, that definitely applies. Right. 1:07:00 You can have, you know, you got this big old down tube that's going down to, you know, if you're using a traditional bottom bracket shell, a fairly small tube down there. Sure. 1:07:09 So you, you know, the overlap between those two tubes wasn't real good. So that's why Cannondale came up with this BB30 standard- Okay... 1:07:19 where it's a bigger bottom bracket shell, so it mates with your bigger down tube better.You know, the two kind of join each other and have a lot of overlap, and, you know, you, you really can take advantage of all that stiffness and strength of the bigger down tube by tying it into the bottom bracket shell where, you know, you've got a lot of stress. 1:07:38 Okay. 1:07:39 So, um, the thing about it is that what, what you would do is instead of having threads, you would press your bearings, and it was a, a, a completely standard, off-the-shelf cartridge bearing that you could find just about anywhere. 1:07:55 You know, it would get pressed into the frame. Mm-hmm. And then what they did is they also went then with, like, this oversized bottom bracket spindle, which was 30 millimeters in diameter- Okay... 1:08:05 that would slide into these bearings. Once again, both the inner and the outer diameters of, you know, tho- those bearings, totally normal. You know, it's super, super, super easy to find bearings, um, to press in there. 1:08:19 Um, it's a really, really kind of simple system using existing stuff that was around. 1:08:26 You know, obviously, you know, you gotta machine the bottom bracket shell, and you gotta end up using a specific bottom bracket spindle, you know, this 30-millimeter thing, but it was a, it was a... 1:08:37 In that respect, it was a very good design. So, what happened over time... So, you know, I guess long story short, kind of like, you know, historically 1:08:48 what's happened is we ended up having Shimano come up with this external bearing bottom bracket where the bearings sit outside the frame, 24-millimeter spindle. You got BB30, which houses everything. 1:09:02 You know, the bearings are still inside the frame, but you got this bigger bottom bracket spindle. Mm-hmm. 1:09:06 So then things have kind of evolved where a lot of other companies, since, you know, we're dealing in carbon and a lot of the stuff like this, you know, basically frame tubes have gotten way bigger, a lot of other companies ended up doing derivations on this BB30 standard. 1:09:22 You know, the-- What-- The thing about press fit bottom brackets is that you have to have exceedingly high tolerances for them to work and them not to creak. 1:09:32 And when you're mass producing frames, it can be very difficult to maintain those tolerances. So, somebody in their infinite wisdom came up with PressFit 30- Mm-hmm... 1:09:44 which is kind of a riff on BB30, and what happens is it, it-- You've, you've got a, if I remember right, a very similar size 1:09:56 inner diameter to that BB30 shell, but you press in this plastic sleeve, and then you press the bearings, which are proprietary bearings, into that sleeve. 1:10:08 And that sleeve, since it's plastic and it's kind of malleable, means that you can have a lot sloppier tolerances on your frame and your bottom bracket shell, and it's not gonna screw things up. Right. 1:10:22 The problem, though, is that it still leads to a lot of misalignment issues and all these other things, and it creaks. Right. 1:10:31 So, you know, that's why press fit bottom brackets get such a bum rap is because, [clears throat] you know, manufacturers are not d-doing things up to spec, essentially. They don't do it precise enough. Mm-hmm. 1:10:48 But throughout this time, there's been all this evolution that's happened with cranks because, you know, everybo- You know, all these bike component manufacturers are trying to save weight. They're trying to, you know, 1:11:00 do all this stuff to make their systems stiffer, lighter, and stronger. And having a bigger diameter, like a 30-millimeter aluminum bottom bracket spindle, does that. 1:11:12 It, it ends up being a lot lighter than the Shimano thing that was introduced with the 24-millimeter bottom bracket spindle. 1:11:18 Um, and, uh, it just, in general, from a, from an engineering standpoint, makes a lot more sense than the 24 millimeter. So, if you look at specifically what happened with SRAM, 1:11:32 you know, kind of getting back to this DUB thing, and I apologize for that long intro, but you kinda gotta- No, I'm with ya. I'm with ya. 1:11:37 Yeah, you just, you kinda gotta know the history of all this stuff 'cause it's, this has evolved over, I mean, it's probably 20 years now that it's happened. Um, 1:11:46 so SRAM was making two different bottom bracket spindles, you know, for every crankset pretty much. 1:11:56 They had a 24-millimeter one, and they had a 30-millimeter one, depending on if you've got, uh, some sort of press fit bottom bracket or if you have, you know, a BSA threaded bottom bracket. Okay. And, um, 1:12:12 if you, you know, like, if you were trying to use certain combinations of these, like, there, there's another bottom bracket st-standard. Um, what is it? I think it's PF94. I might have my, um, my numbers wrong. 1:12:29 But essentially what, what that did was it [chuckles] took your standard, like, you know, threaded bottom bracket spindle, made it really wide, so you could attach a big tube to it, and you'd have, you know, that down tube be the full width of, you know, like... 1:12:46 And then, and basically, and it placed the bearings inside instead of placing the bearings outside. Okay. So you got a small diameter tube that's really wide, and the bearings are inside. 1:12:54 But, you know, th- it goes back to what I was talking about. When you got [chuckles] a small diameter bottom bracket shell, you know, that doesn't leave a lot of room for your bearings. Uh-huh. 1:13:04 So the bearing durability was horrible. Okay. You know, or, you know, you try to put a little bit bigger bearings in there, and then you don't have room for the seals, and just, I mean, it was just all of these issues. 1:13:15 So you kind of had had this historical carryover of 24-millimeter bottom bracket spindles, 30-millimeter bottom bracket spindles, and you got this proliferation of all these different shell types around it, and some of the combinations just sucked. 1:13:34 I mean, just from a durability standpoint, you know, 'cause of seals and 'cause of bearing sizes and stuff like that, they just, they did not hold up. 1:13:41 Okay.So, you know, on top of having press fit bottom brackets, you know, which are imprecisely made, sucking 'cause they creak- Mm-hmm... then on top of it, you end up having the bearings failing all the time, [laughs] 1:13:53 you know? Yeah. So I mean, just like it was a double bad situation, you know? And it's just, it's c- like I said, it's just because of this historical carryover. So finally, okay, SRAM DUB. Here we go. 1:14:03 And what SRAM DUB does is it kinda tries to find a middle ground between the 30 millimeter bottom bracket spindle and a 24 millimeter bottom bracket spindle, and it's something that will work in all bottom bracket shells, and you're still gonna end up having good bearing durability. 1:14:23 How does it do that? Um, it ends up being slightly smaller than the 30 millimeter. Yeah. I think, I think they officially listed it as like 28.99 millimeters or something weird. Okay. 1:14:33 Which there are some people that complain, "Well, why didn't they just make it 29," or whatever. I mean, I... 1:14:39 If that-- You know, if they've done-- gone through and they've studied it, and that truly is the best size, you know, I-- good on them to actually publish what the [laughs] actual dimension is- Okay... 1:14:50 instead of, you know, trying to end up saying, "Well, it's almost 29 millimeters." Sure. You know? And, you know, a millimeter in this type of situation makes a big difference. 1:15:01 So, you know, them just being, "Well, 30 is close enough. We'll just stick with 30." I mean, obviously 30 wasn't working, otherwise they would've been able to do this previously. Okay. 1:15:08 So, um, it's a l- it's, it's a little bit funky that they've got this 28.99 millimeter bottom bracket spindle. Mm-hmm. 1:15:16 But the thing is, you know, this-- and th- and this is where people a lot of times start to talk about, "Well, SRAM just created this new standard." No, they didn't create a new standard. 1:15:25 You know, you could never use a SRAM 24 millimeter bottom bracket spindle with anything but a SRAM crank. Okay. You can't use a SRAM 30 millimeter bottom bracket spindle with anything else but a SRAM crank. Okay. 1:15:42 You know? They, they haven't changed anything that way. You are gonna use a SRAM DUB spindle with a SRAM DUB bottom bracket and SRAM cranks, period. All right. You know? Um, so nothing's really changed that way. 1:15:58 They just more or less simplified things greatly. So instead of you being stuck with a 24 millimeter bottom bracket spindle, you get the benefits of the bigger aluminum spindle, which is stiffer and lighter. 1:16:09 And instead of being stuck with the 30 where you might end up in some situations having, you know, crappy bearings in there, you now have got, you know, the, the DUB spindle, and you've got decent bearings in there. 1:16:23 What are the implications for us as fat bikers? Um, it, it basically means that, you know, in a lot of cases, the cranks that you've got right now- Yeah... are gonna get phased out. Okay. 1:16:38 There's gonna be parts available for a long time. Sure. Um, there's a ton of aftermarket companies that are making good bottom brackets. SRAM's gonna continue to offer the bottom brackets, I don't know for how long. 1:16:48 But- Right... you know, it's not like what you've got right now you're not gonna be able to end up servicing. Okay. 1:16:53 So, you know, there's gonna be a phase-out of what you're using right now, and there's gonna be a phase-in of this new stuff. Right. And, you know, I... You know, SRAM released this information. 1:17:05 People thought the apocal-apocalypse had come because there was a new standard out there, and that's not the case. This is gonna be-- I, I'm-- I gotta believe this is gonna be a pretty smooth transition. 1:17:14 It's just- Right... when, you know, you buy a new bike, if it comes with a SRAM crank, it's gonna be DUB, and that's it. Right. You know? No big deal. Huh. 1:17:25 So, you know, all in all, I think this is a really-- it-- this is a good thing. 1:17:30 I'm glad to see a manufacturer simplifying their line because, you know, in the long run, this means that, you know, bike shops and stuff like that are gonna have to spec fewer things, you know? 1:17:42 Instead of having, you know, bottom brackets for 24 millimeter spindles and 30 millimeter spindles, they can just do the DUB spindles. Um, you know, and some things like that. It, it-- You know, it basically reduces 1:17:55 the complication of, you know, the SKUs and the, the different types by 50%. Gotcha. And anytime that happens, in my opinion, is a good thing. Okay. So kinda just wanted to get the information out there. 1:18:07 It does- This doesn't drastically change a lot of stuff. Um, you know, um, it's, it's still going to end up being a good setup. Um, you know, me personally, I'm not a real big fan of SRAM cranks. 1:18:23 Um, I'm kind of s-surprised. I don't think they make an actual 197 spaced fat bike crank- Oh, really?... with the appropriate chain line yet. Okay. Yeah, I think they're still sticking with the-- 1:18:35 They basically offset stuff a little bit so that you can run your 177 spaced crank- Uh-huh... 1:18:42 with a little bit, with a slightly compromised chain line, but narrower, um, crank arms, um, to try to keep the Q factor really narrow. Okay. 1:18:50 Um, which isn't necessarily a bad thing, but it's like sometimes, you know, that's, that's an issue for frame builders and stuff like that, where you might want that real estate to try to maximize tire clearance and stuff. 1:19:01 Right. So there's some things like that that I find are a little bit perplexing. But, you know, you look at the, the SRAM cranks and, you know, sort of by the numbers, by the specs, they're solid. 1:19:12 Um, so I think, you know, this is something that's gonna come stock on a lot of bikes, and, um, you know, I think that's gonna be a good thing, so. Cool. Cool. Yeah. Yeah. All right. 1:19:24 So just kinda wanted to provide a little [laughs] balanced information about SRAM DUB. No, I, I, I wa- I was curious about it when I-- 'cause I didn't-- You're the guy who learns everything and tells me about it, so. 1:19:35 [laughs] All right. Um, let's leave bottom brackets then. [upbeat music]Welcome back, campers. All right, here we are. Uh, we're in the home stretch. 1:19:51 Yeah, so we got the new Deadwood. Yeah. Um- Um, I guess there's, there's two reasons why we're talking about the Deadwood. Um, it- well, it's, it's a plus bike, so this is a show about plus and fat bikes. And, yeah. 1:20:04 And, and, and a hell of a city. [laughs] Um- [laughs]... and Andy owns a Deadwood from last year. Yeah. The 2017 Deadwood. Yeah. So- Yeah... there was just-- it was just released, the 2018 Deadwood. Right. 1:20:17 And I think this is, this is a bike that kind of gives a hint about where 29-plus might be headed. Sure. So that's kind of why we wanted to end up talking about this. And y- you wanna, you... I don't... 1:20:32 Are you familiar enough with it to jump in and talk about it? I mean- Uh, I am, uh, and after you start the discussion about it, though. I mean, I, I- [laughs]... understand what they did with the tires and the fork. 1:20:43 Um- So, okay- You know? So let- Okay... get into what's different. Right. So the, the Deadwood in 2017, and I think it was a 2016 bike too- '16 as well, yeah... um, came with three-inch tires. Right. Um- 29 by three. 1:20:54 Yep. And it has, uh, um- It was 100 on the front. Yeah, 100 mil Pike on the front. Right. It was a special RockShox Pike- Yeah... um, 1:21:05 that had, you know, plenty of clearance for three-inch tires [clears throat] and was shorter than any other Pike that was available. Right. And then in the rear, what is it, 90 millimeters of travel? Uh, 91. 91. Yes. 1:21:13 I'm sorry. Yes. Yeah, I didn't mean to shortchange you. 91. Um, 91 millimeters of travel on the rear. 1:21:18 And, you know, this is a great setup for bike packing and, you know, a lot of things like that, but it's kind of a niche bike. 1:21:25 And if you look at what's come out on the 2018 bike, um, they're sticking with the Pike on the front, but it's a different Pike, and supposedly it's got less clearance. It can only run up to, like, a 2.8-inch tire. 1:21:37 Right. And the Deadwood's coming with a 2.8-inch tire setup on there now- Right... instead of three-inch. So- And it's a longer travel fork, though, too. Oh, is it? Okay. Yeah. It's 120, which makes up- Yep... 1:21:50 for the difference in the bottom bracket. Yep. E- exactly. Yeah, so it keeps the bottom bracket in the same spot. Right. It slackens it out slightly because the front end's a little bit higher- Yep... 1:21:57 and some things like that. So, um, it kind of fits in with the trend of, you know, slacker, lower, longer. But in this case, it's kind of just, it's slacker. [laughs] Well, and 1:22:10 o- one thing I d- I went back and was reading about the '17, the 29 by three with 100 mil fork, is that 1:22:17 it's, it's a- it's advertised and, and suggested that, hey, if you don't like the 29 by three, you can do a 29 by 2.6, 2.8- Yep... lower your bottom bracket a little bit. Yep. 1:22:30 And it sounds like what they did is actually went with that instead. Well, and I, and this is, this is why we're talking about it is 'cause this, it seems to be an indicator of where 29-plus is going. Um, 1:22:47 you know, everything available up till now has basically been 29 by three-inch tires. 1:22:51 And then there's been, been this big chasm, and you jump down and you've got, like, you know, a 29 by three five or four or whatever, maybe two five tires. 1:23:00 So there's, there's not a whole lot in between two and a half, essentially, and three-inch 29er tires. Right. And we've started to see this proliferation of both 2.6 and 2.8-inch tires. Right. And 1:23:14 what is the indication with this is that, you know, RockShox and stuff like that are not gonna be making parts that are gonna fit three-inch tires. Right. 1:23:23 That they're gonna be making, you know, forks and things like that that fit 2.8 and 2.6-inch tires because they think that's the sweet spot of 29-plus, quote, unquote, whatever you wanna call it, um, market. 1:23:38 So are, are they driving the change, then? I mean, are they, are they dictating where people are gonna- Well-... what people are gonna ride?... that's kind of the question. 1:23:50 I mean, or the question or the comment or whatever. Yeah. In this case, yeah. I mean, your, your fork, if it can't run a three-inch tire- Yeah... you know, that's gonna really limit 1:24:00 what people are gonna ride, [laughs] you know? But why not make a fork that can run as a three-inch tire and then peop- that allows people to run a 2.8 or a 2.6? Damn good question. Okay. 1:24:09 And, and I think, uh, I think what this comes back to is, you know, not only do tires get wider, it's very easy, especially with, like, the boost spacing now, like 110- Yeah... you know, b- uh, 15 by 110 or whatever. 1:24:20 Right. Um, it's very easy to make a fork that's wide enough to fit a three-inch tire, but the three-inch tires tend to get really tall. Yeah. So in order to end up keeping the front end of the bike a reasonable height, 1:24:34 they have to kind of limit how big a tire that will fit that way. And my guess is that they're like, "Okay, you know, people keep talking... I mean, three-inch tires are not du jour, you know? They aren't- Yeah... 1:24:48 cool, the cool kid anymore." Right. You know, they were a cool kid once upon a time, but, you know, pretty much only... 1:24:54 People are gonna run three-inch tires on rigid forks because they want the extra suspension that a bigger tire has. And if you're- Okay... running a suspension fork, you're gonna be running a 2.6 or a 2.8. Right. 1:25:05 They can still... The 2018 model can still fit a three-inch on the back. Exactly. But- But-... on the front... I'm sorry, but that's stupid. Yeah. 1:25:14 It's like, you know, most of the time you don't run a bigger tire in the rear than you do on the front. Right. It's generally the other way around. 1:25:18 Why would you wanna run a three-inch on the back and up to a 2.8 on the front? Yeah, and if you look at, like, the 2.8 tires that are out there, there's hardly any of them out there. Right. 1:25:27 You know, like, I think the only 2.8, um, what is it? The Kennebec and the Colombian, um- Well, the Terrene. Yeah. Yeah. So it's like- The Cumberland. Yeah. Those, those are the only 2.8-inch 29er tires I know about. 1:25:39 Yeah, and those tread designs are th- th- the, you, you're not gonna be able to ride those tread designs everywhere. Well, if you, if you traditionally look at what-29 by three-inch tires are. 1:25:49 They're very fast-rolling, minimally knobbed. You know, like, your traction comes from the big footprint. It doesn't come from this really aggressive tire. And there are exceptions to that. I mean- Right, Minion... 1:25:59 you- look-- You had the Minion, Dirt Wizard, both of those are- Yep... big-time exceptions to that. Yeah. But, you know, you look at all the other ones, you know, the, the WTB Ranger, the, the- Chupacabra... 1:26:07 you know, Chupacabra, Bontrager- Uh... um- Plus, uh, the- The Bombolini... Bombolini, the Fat Bet Nimble. Yep, I mean, they, you know, and there's, there's several other ones that are out there. Yeah. 1:26:18 But pretty much all of them are-- You know, even the, um, the, the Chronicle. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh yeah, the Maxxis Chronicle. Right. You know, bigger side knobs, but still really minimal, fast-rolling center tread. 1:26:28 Sure. Yeah. You know, all of these tires basically are, you know, the, the, they're minimally knobbed, wide tires. You know, they're, they're kinda aimed at the bike packing or, you know, more, 1:26:40 more mellow, uh, single track. You know- Gotcha... kinda what we have in the Midwest here. Right. You know, they're not real good in-- I mean, they're-- they suck in- Yeah... loose over hard. Yeah. 1:26:50 [chuckles] You know, it's like, if you, if you got kitty litter on top of a hard surface, those knobs are not big enough to penetrate through there and get down and get some good traction. Yeah. 1:26:57 You know, so, you know, they really suck for that, but they still roll pretty well. They're fairly light. Um, you know, they're, they're really good options in those realms. 1:27:08 So you think this is-- Back to the point, this is indicative of what RockShox or Salsa working together, maybe separately, think is gonna happen? 1:27:22 I think the, the-- What, what most of the industry is banking on is that if you're running a suspension fork on the front, you're not gonna want a bigger than a 2.8-inch tire. Okay. 1:27:36 That you're probably gonna want, like, a 2.6. Geez. And, and, you know, if you look at the Deadwood, it comes with 2.6-inch tires this year. Right. You know? I, I think it comes with the Recons, right? 1:27:47 Yeah, comes with the Recons. Yeah, the Maxxis Recons, yep. Yeah. So, you know- Huh... and that's the tire that I've got to run this year. I'm really excited about it. I think it's a great-looking tire. Yeah. 1:27:54 But that, you know, it is-- it's no three-inch tire. No. And I was advised that 2.6 on, on, on the '17 model would lower that bottom bracket, and you might risk pedal strikes, that kinda stuff. 1:28:11 Well, and, and part of that also gets back to riding ar-around here. Running it around here, yeah. You know, like, in the Midwest- Gotcha... 1:28:18 I mean, we've, we've talked about this ad nauseam, but to kinda mention it again, typically what we've got, it-- very pedally trails. Yeah. So you're, you're pedaling through corners. Mm-hmm. 1:28:28 So, you know, as you kinda lean over, you gotta worry more about pedal strikes. Right. Um, we've got a lot of situations where, you know, trees are very narrow and things like that. Yep. 1:28:38 So you gotta try to keep the bike a little more upright and some stuff like that to- Sure... get through the corners. Um, so all of this, I guess, long story short, it's more cross-country-ish. Yeah. 1:28:48 And having a more cross-country-oriented style, where you're on the pedals and you're, you're pedaling hard instead of, like, getting off and getting all enduro on the downhill. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, 1:28:59 you know, it's-- that's, that's kinda what the style is. So- Okay... 1:29:01 you know, a lower bottom bracket's really good when you can go down a long, steep downhill, and you don't have to pedal at all, and you can still go really, really fast. Okay. All right. Um, 1:29:12 so, you know, in the ca-case, case of you on your Deadwood- Yeah... yeah, running a 2.6-inch tire, that's gonna get pretty low for around here, and you might- Right... whack pedals. Right, right. 1:29:22 But if you go some other area, you know, that-- your, your bike's gonna be a little bit more stable. Sure. And if you're in a place where you can just let the downhills rip, and you don't have to pedal- Right... 1:29:31 probably gonna be all right. Gotcha. So I guess long story short, um, my guess is that we're gonna continue to see some legacy tires in the three-inch size. Yeah. 1:29:43 Um, but I wouldn't bank on seeing any new tires in the three-inch size. I think pretty much everything we're gonna see as far as new tires in 29 inch are gonna end up being in the smaller 2.6 and 2.8s. Huh. 1:29:56 And I wouldn't doubt it if we see a very similar thing in the 27-plus world. Okay. 1:30:01 We've already seen a big pluriferate-- proliferation of the 2.8s, and we started to see a few more 2.6s, and I think that's, that's where the meat of the whole market's gonna be. 1:30:11 It'll all come out in the wash what's the sweet spot for where you're riding. Yeah. Yeah. Yep. Okay. So, you know, long story- We need a regional tire selection. Regional. Yeah, yeah. It just- You know, like... 1:30:22 Yeah, it just-- [chuckles] You know, I think, you know, kind of the note to people, don't, you know, hope and wish that you're gonna see a whole bunch of new three-inch-plus tires get developed. It's not gonna happen. 1:30:35 Wah. Yeah. All right. Um, uh, so w-we're gonna talk about this dub thing. We talked about it last month. We're gonna plug it in. Yep, yep. Um, so that's coming up. A little bit of editing. 1:30:46 But then we do wanna congratulate, in closing here, Jill Martindale with her second place in the, uh, Iditarod up to McGrath there, 350 miles. Yeah, she kicked butt. Yeah. Last year she won, um, Arrowhead. Did she- Yeah. 1:31:00 Is that- Yeah, the Arrowhead 135. And then when, you know, we interviewed her on a show, and she was just like, "I'm hoping I can get up there," but to get second place in your first year- That's awesome... holy cow. 1:31:11 Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it was like-- it, it sounded like it was a fairly tough year. It's like we've had a few really- Yeah... low-snow years, and this wasn't a low-snow year. Yeah. 1:31:18 There were some difficult sections in it. It wasn't, like, a super hard, you know, super snow year, but- Right... it wasn't easy. Maybe for a spring show, we could give her a call and, and have her talk about that again. 1:31:28 That might be something we could set up. Yeah. I just-- I was super stoked to see how she did- Yeah... you know, for- Right... for a first-timer, that was awesome. Right. Congratulations, Jill. Yep. That's awesome. 1:31:36 Cheers. Um, that's gonna close us out. Um, don't forget e- send us an email. I'll forward it to Ken. We'll talk about emails at some point. We've gotten some- Yeah... 1:31:46 good ones lately talking about tires and stuff like that. Okay. And we just-- We're a little behind the ball right now, and we gotta- We're-... get caught up, and then we'll talk about emails... 1:31:53 we're riding so much, man. We don't have enough time, you know? We're just- [chuckles]... shredding so much gnar out there in the U-Dub. Um, check us out on Instagram. Shoot us an email. Thanks for listening. 1:32:03 Appreciate all the support. I mean, a lot of, a lot of you guys that listen to us are, um, just thanking us, and it, it- Very stoked. Yeah. 1:32:11 It's-- We still enjoy doing it, and we're gonna continue to do it until someone tells us we can't do it anymore. But, uh, hopefully that doesn't happen soon. Um, Ken, I'll see you out on the trail. 1:32:19 Thanks for talking with me. Back at you. It's been good times. All right. We're out. Cheers. Cheers. 1:32:24 [upbeat music] Thanks for listening. 1:32:39 The music we are using on today's show is from the Free Music Archive by Steinregen Dub System. You can find all our shows at fat-bike.com, including notes for today's show. 1:32:59 [upbeat music]
