Transcript 0:00 [singing] Oh, it's a snow day. 0:26 Hallelujah, it's a snow day. Welcome to Fat Camp show number 10 for January 30th, 2016. This is actually kind of show 10.5, maybe 11. We recorded another one in there. 0:41 It was a best of 2015, but that seems to be a topic that our amigos to the west over in Wisconsin, uh, ended up covering pretty well. 0:51 So we kind of skipped over that show, and now, uh, we're gonna be talking about something else. So Fatbike.com presents Fat Camp. 0:59 This is a monthly podcast covering different tech- technical aspects of fat and plus-size bikes. Look for all our shows at fatbike.com/fatcamp or subscribe to our iTunes feed. 1:12 Uh, one quick note about this show, uh, the last five, seven minutes or so, uh, something happened with Andy's mic. 1:20 It ended up cutting out, so I did the best I could to kind of fix up the audio and make it so he was still able to be heard. Um, so I apologize for that, and hopefully you'll still enjoy it. Thanks for listening. 1:33 [singing] I got trenches in my feet. Made of silk and cheese. Thank you, Mr. Please. I'm staying home. Welcome, campers. So- Uh, good evening, folks. Tonight is the snow show. 1:50 Uh, yeah, the snow show. Fo' show. Yep. We've been pleasantly inundated with snow, and, uh, we have a, a new, uh, groomer to the camp. Ah, yes. New guy grooming the trails. Yep. Andy has now been, uh... 2:06 He's popped his cherry on the groomer, and, um, he's starting to get his stoke about different varieties of snow and how to turn that into- Got my own trail that I'm taking care of. Yeah. Kind of nice. Yeah. 2:18 Kind of nice. It's, it's all about taking that snow and turning it into something fun. 2:21 So I think that's what, uh, tonight's technical, uh, Fat Bike podcast is about because, um, there seems to be a boom on the groom these days around the country. 2:30 And what, um, I got a lot of question about, questions about is, how do you make that snow do what you want it to do so that you can get out and get off on it? So we're gonna talk about snow. 2:42 Um, this isn't all aimed at groomers. 2:45 Um, I'm guessing that riders will find it interesting, too, uh, just because it'll help you kind of get a clue about, you know, what the groomers are doing, what they can't do, what they can do. 2:55 Um, hopefully it'll be, you know, an interesting podcast for all. Right on. Welcome, campers. Yep. Cheers. [singing] What stays in the air, you know, kind of hard to bear. Oh, I got a smile fits in the palm of my hand. 3:11 Welcome back, campers. We're rocking out the snow show now. Here we are. Um, we've finally dialed in what we think we want to talk about for the evening. Yeah. And I must start with a disclaimer. 3:22 Um- Here's the disclaimer... if you are a groomer out there, and you've got, you know, decades of experience, and you think I'm full of shit with whatever I say, I would welcome you to chime into the conversation. 3:34 Because, um, I've got, you know, uh, maybe five years-ish grooming ski trails and stuff like that, doing a bunch of research to try to figure out and dial in some stuff. 3:45 Um, you know, I've transferred over and started grooming fat bike trails. 3:49 Um, I feel like I got a pretty good sense of what goes on with snow and how you make it good, um, for skiing, fat biking, um, a lot of stuff like that. 3:58 However, there's people out there that have some sage wisdom that I can't even begin to touch. 4:05 So- It would be kind of cool if they'd chime in on the comments down below about m- i- a- about, yeah, you're, you're f- try this out next time. E- e- exactly. Yeah. Yeah. You know, and I think I'll, I'll... 4:17 You know, I'm, I'm not trying to toot my own horn. I think I'm pretty on with a lot of this stuff, but there's... 4:22 I mean, there's a million types of snow out there, and the people who are really experienced at grooming know how, like, they can just, like, sense it in some, like, some crazy way of, "Okay, I got this kind of snow. 4:36 I need to do this type of thing to it," and that's gonna make it really, really, really good snow to play on. Have you experienced that just out and about, you know? Um, 4:47 typically the groomers are not the type to talk about it. Right. But if you start to hang out with groomers, you'll see them do something that, like, raises an eyebrow. 4:57 [laughs] And then when you ask them about it, then they'll be like, "Oh, well, it's 'cause of da, da, da, da, da, da, da." Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And, you know, there... 5:04 It's just, it's one of those experience-based things. You know, until you've actually started grooming, and you've both fucked up and, you know, also made great snow, you start to hone in on what is good and what is not. 5:17 How long have we been ha- how long have humans groomed snow? Ah, who knows? I mean, it, it... A long time. I mean, if, if you look at, like, the skiing world and things like that. Yeah. I mean, it, it, uh... 5:31 I, I'm gonna call out another, uh, podcast that I really like, but, um, uh, uh, The Fat Cyclist. Yeah. He started doing a podcast called Fatty Cast. Yeah. 5:40 Um, his most recent one, he ended up interviewing, um, Jill Homer, I think is her- her name. 5:46 But, um, was, uh, interviewing her about, um, how to, like, basically her upcoming, uh, you know, thousand-mile journey in the Iditarod. Okay. 5:56 All this, like, kind of stuff, and talking about, you know-Really talking about her race world and stuff like that, and she's done mostly winter races. Yeah. 6:04 And one of the questions was like, "Okay, why are you doing winter races in Alaska? It seems like that's the worst time to do it in Alaska." Sure. [laughs] It's flipping cold. And it's like- Right... 6:11 well, it's, it's, you know, basically this super dense vegetation, you can't get around, so, you know, traditionally the only time to get around in Alaska is winter so that you can go on rivers and these other places like that to avoid the foliage. 6:23 Okay. So, 6:25 you know, this is a really long way of saying it, but it's like anytime you've ended up being out in the w- you know, like the middle of nowhere for the past couple thousand years, humans have been trying to figure out ways to get from one place to the other. 6:38 Right. So, you know, there's little tick- you know, trick- tricks that people have learned, tips and tricks they've learned over the years on how to be able to do that effectively. Sure. 6:48 Both as far as the vehicle that travels it and also what you can do to the snow to make it so it's gonna hold up and be fun and all this kind of stuff. I guess that was my question. 6:56 I, hunters and gatherers needing to stomping through the snow and making an easy path for later on, but in sk- [laughs] like we've been grooming for modern sport. Skate skiing's not that old, is it? 7:09 Well, but there was plenty of grooming prior to skate skiing for, you know, classic skiing- Yeah... and things like that. I mean, there's, there's been grooming for skiing for a really long time. Okay. 7:18 At least as far as I know. I don't- Yeah... you know. 7:20 But I, I guess one of the big things to put in here right now is that, um, with grooming, um, and I'll, I'll talk more about this, 'cause people t- tend to think about making like a good trail as being about compaction, and it's not about compaction. 7:35 Okay. 7:35 It's, it's really like, for lack of a better way of putting it, really putting a lot of energy into that snow and, like, treating that snow kind of violently, and then you sort of set it back down, and then it, it tends to bond really well. 7:49 So- Hmm... the, that act of putting a bunch of energy into the snow typically takes a motorized device. 7:56 Um, you can do a lot of good things with human-powered grooming and things like that, but, um, mechanized grooming, like with a motor and stuff like that, that's, that's really kind of what's lifted the game in the modern grooming world. 8:10 So, you know, it's probably been, I don't know, the last 50, 100 years or whatever- Okay... that people have been doing some sort of motorized- Okay... grooming thing to make really good trail. Gotcha. 8:19 Um, you know, and things have advanced a lot during that period. Right. In, in the past, um, four or five years, we've always relied on some snowmobilers to go through, and then we wait a while, 8:32 and then we jump on it, and we just are loving it, but- Yes and no... 8:36 it's just- So, okay, so the flip side of that is, um, yeah, there, there's situations like that, but then, you know, pretty much all of us wanna be able to ride single track. Sure. 8:44 And riding a snowmobile trail is typically not single track. Right. It's much more open. Right. So, you know, there's the snowshoeing, there's, you know, the, the snowshoeing pulling a tire. There's- Sure... 8:53 you know, different human-powered, like, grooming things you can make out of stop signs and- Right. [laughs]... plastic and shit. Yeah. [laughs] Yeah. 8:59 Um, so, you know, there's all those types of things that people have been doing that are human powered based to basically, you know, compact trail and groom trail. Okay. 9:08 So it's not just snowmobiles, but snowmobiles w- I mean, es- essentially, that's, that's a good thing because, you know, it's these motorized vehicles that are ripping across the snow, and they're- Sure... 9:17 kinda like churning it up, and then once that sets up, it can be a really, really, really good base for you to ride on. 9:22 Well, if we wanna talk just specifically about what makes good snow for fat biking, where do we start? 9:30 Well, I guess, you know, kinda getting back to this compaction versus what I was talking about is, like, putting energy into the snow. Sure. 9:38 Um, so, like, a phrase that when you start hanging out with some groomers, the phrase that I've heard a lot of times is when they talk about knocking air out of snow, and that's, it's kind of a different way of looking at it than just straight up compaction. 9:52 You're not just squishing snow down. Um, you're, you're doing something to churn it up, and then you lay it back down on the ground. When you squish it, doesn't it blow it out? Not necessarily. So- Huh... 10:02 okay, to kinda give you something that most people are familiar with, think about the snow that is left over from, like, a snowplow, like at the end of your driveway. Hate it. Yeah. 10:14 It's- Makes a goddamn bump and [laughs] Oh, yeah... you know? That shit's like turns into cement. Right. Right. You know? It just, like, sets up. Yeah. 10:20 And, I mean, essentially, what you wanna do with a groomed trail, you wanna do that, but you wanna lay it down into this little r- like, ribbon down that you're gonna ride on it. Yeah. 10:29 So, you know, what, what's happening is when that plow goes past, it churns up the snow. 10:34 All those snow crystals, like, you know, basically start, like, bumping into each other and, like, you know, start breaking apart, and there's a bunch of energy that's added into that snow. 10:44 It's not, it's not getting compacted necessarily. It is a little bit, but it's like it's not like you're squishing it down. You know, this, the snow is getting thrown. Right. 10:51 It's getting churned around and it's getting thrown. So just a bunch of kinetic energy's going right into it. Yeah. 10:55 And it's, it's breaking up all those crystals in the snow, and then those crystals want to bond to stuff. Right. You got, like, these, like these open receptacles or whatever. It's almost like a, a chemical kinda thing. 11:05 Okay. And then they, they connect to each other, and the snow sets up. Right. And I think that's, that's an important thing to kinda... 11:11 I don't know how many fat bikers are familiar with this, but typically when you groom something and, like, you, you add all this energy into the snow, it's not gonna, like, be a finished product r- right after you go over it. 11:23 You need at least an hour for that snow to set up, and ideally it would be, like, overnight. You know? It'd be several hours. Sure. I mean, it's, it's kind of, it's the equivalent of paint drying. You know? 11:33 Y- you gotta let the paint dry before you wanna end up, you know, touching the wall, otherwise you're gonna screw up your paint job. Yeah. Same exact thing with grooming. 11:40 That's a really good analogy, though, of the plow coming by and filling your driveway with snow and getting everything. It's like taking, you know, 11:50 red rover games from several different neighborhoods and just exploding those red rover games. 11:55 [laughs] And when they're up in the air, everyone's looking for hands to grab, and they all end up coming down in giant red rover. 12:02 [laughs] It just seems like that's what's happening is these snow crystals are just like pa-They just blown up, and when they come back down, they screw your driveway 'cause it's just, it's compacted like that. 12:12 Yeah, and that's what I want. Well, that's my, uh, cat saying hello. Oh, geez. Um, so, uh, no, you- you're, you're exactly right though. That's good. 12:21 It's like, yeah, it's, it's, it's basically, you know, it's this violent action of churning up the snow. That is what you want to do, and then you want to basically press that shit down in a nice smooth layer. Um, 12:34 and that's, that's what grooming is. Gotcha. So- So it's more than just rolling it. Exactly. You're not just trying to smash snow. 12:40 You're, you're trying to like churn it up, and then you're trying to basically lay it down in a really consistent mat. 12:46 Okay, so we might be jumping the gun, but why don't in front of your roller that you're pulling with your snowmobile, don't you put something to stir it all up so that the roller can compress it back down? Okay. 12:58 So let's- And then your weight can ch- even do it more. So okay. That- Get the hell away from me, you psycho cat. [laughs] Yeah, I've got a cat named Genghis because he has a tendency to bite people. Like, you... 13:11 You're... He tricks you, too. Like, you're like, "Oh, look at this nice cat." And then you remember, he's not all right. Yeah. He'll, he'll purr at you, and you think he's nice, and then he'll attack you. Attack. Yeah. 13:21 Anyway. Sorry. Okay. So why don't you put a s- um, an energy, energizer on front of your roller? You certainly can. 13:28 Okay, so let's, let's talk about some basic groomers, and then make sure you ask that question again here in a minute. Oh, my gosh. So- No pressure... okay. 13:36 So in the s- the ski world and the fat bike world, um, are largely the same. There's, there's very, very, very, very little differences. Get off my trails. 13:45 [laughs] There's very little difference between what the two are doing. In general with fat biking, you wanna end up getting a higher level of compaction so that the trail will hold up to people carving around corners. 13:57 But other than that, um, there's, there's very... Like, whereas with a ski trail, you want it to be a little bit soft so that somebody can get an edge in there, and they can edge their ski around a corner. 14:08 You know, it's basically, it's, it's kinda like the carvable snow. 14:11 Um, so you wanna get a little bit more compaction at the end of all this, but the, the principles of what you can do with snow and how you can groom it are, are more or less the same. So different implements. Okay. 14:24 You got, uh, typically what you'll see is a, a combination of a, like a roller and a compactor. That's, that's a really popular grooming implement right now, like the, the Crothers, uh, roller. Yeah, Wildcat. 14:38 Yeah, Wildcat's another one. Yeah. Yep, yep, and both of those are, are, are really good because what, what is gonna happen is the, the roller goes across the snow very efficiently. 14:48 It does not take that much power to roll, you know, that roller over the snow. Gotcha. 14:54 So when you get a shit ton of snow, the roller is the best way to go because whatever vehicle you're gonna pull this with is gonna have a hard time pulling your implement. Okay. 15:03 So it, it really helps when you get a ton of snow to have a roller. That's, that, you know, in the ski world, that's like the first thing you're gonna do. As soon as you get a big dump, you're gonna go roll it. Okay. 15:13 Because you have to get the snow compacted enough that you can then start to use some of these other implements. Okay, so the roller does compact it enough so that you can build your base off of that. Exactly. 15:23 And then start to dial it in. It doesn't... You know, typically, the roller in and of itself, it's not gonna process that snow enough. It's not gonna add enough energy and do stuff like that- Okay... 15:31 to make it so that you've got a good, hard surface. Yeah, it just pushes it down. Yeah, that's exactly it. Okay. Yeah. So what it does is it takes... 15:40 You know, like when you got, let's say, eight inches of powder that you're trying to go through, it's, it's really easy for that to like basically build up in front of, like, your, your pan, your compaction pan. Yeah. 15:51 That's on the back of a roller- Sure... which I'll talk about in a second. It's, it's very easy for that to almost form a plow, and then it doesn't process the snow. 15:59 It just kinda, like, you know, builds up in front of it and either chunks up, you know, it kinda goes up and over, um- Yeah... and then leaves the chunks on your trail, which is bad. Yeah. 16:08 Or it pushes it to the side, which you might not necessarily want. Right. So, you know, you need to do something. 16:14 And I guess kinda going back to, you know, typically what'll happen is you'll have a roller, and then you'll have a compaction pan on the backside of it. 16:20 So what the roller does is it kinda just presses the snow down enough so that when the pan hits it, it doesn't build up in front of the pan. Okay. 16:28 And you can put a ton of weight on that pan, and that will get some sort of churning action. It'll be ac- kind of like that plow at the end of your driveway type of thing. Right. Right. 16:39 And it's gonna, it's gonna, it's gonna add energy to that snow. And it might just be partially just pressing it down. It might be churning it up. But, you know, you kinda have a two-stage system. Okay. 16:51 You've got the first stage being the roller, which just brings it down to a manageable volume, and then the second stage is where you really are starting to, to churn up the snow and add energy and, like, really transform those snow crystals. 17:04 So, uh, but is that the best implement to have when you don't have- No... eight inches of powder? [laughs] No, it definitely is not. That, it's a really versatile implement. It's, it's, it's the most versatile implement. 17:17 If you're gonna get one thing to groom fat bike trail with, you wanna get a roller with that compaction pan on the back. Okay. Um, 'cause it's something that a Rokon or a snowmobile can pull no problem- Sure... 17:29 even in really deep snow. Okay. But what's gonna happen is it's not gonna really renovate that snow that terribly well. 17:36 Um, it, it, it tends to make the trail very level from side to side, but it doesn't do anything really to correct, or it's very difficult to correct, um, off-camber trail. 17:50 It's very difficult to correct lumps and bumps down the length of the trail. Okay. It only basically makes it flat from side to side. Okay. 17:58 Um, it can do a little bit, like if you load up a bunch of weight in the back of the pan, as... 18:03 If, let's say, your trail's kinda bumpy, like it's, it's early in the season and your, the dirt underneath's bumpier or whatever. Uh-huh. 18:09 Um, you know, and you wanna get this thing to be kinda butter smooth so when you're going down it, it, it's, it's not bumpy. 18:15 Um-If, if you put a bunch of weight on the pan, it'll take the tops off of some of those bumps- Mm-hmm... and deposit that snow into the bottom. Sure. But it's not a real efficient way of doing that. 18:28 Um, it's, it's kind of a crude, for lack of a better way. Yeah, yeah. You'll, you'll see what I'm talking about when we get into some of the other things. Um- I, I got a question. Yes. Uh, does it matter what speed 18:41 you groom at? Um- You know, and I was very, very surprised how fast you went, um, when I started riding, you know, learning how to do this thing. Well, yes and no. I mean, in, you... 18:55 as a general rule of thumb, um, j- the, the consensus generally is the slower, the better. Yeah, that's what I went into it thinking. 19:03 However, what I've kind of found with some of the fat bike trail, and this, within reason, um, if, if you're going a little bit quicker, that if you've got that pan loaded up with a lot of weight, it's kind of got its own amount of inertia, and it doesn't want to... 19:19 Like, it's not gonna drop into holes. It's gonna blast the top off of- Okay... bumps, and then it's gonna deposit that snow after that. Okay. 19:26 So, you know, instead of it following the existing contours, it will level out a little more. Okay. So, you know, uh, when, when we're talking fast, we're talking like 10 miles an hour. Oh, no. Yeah, yeah. 19:40 I know what you're talking about. Yeah. Yeah, instead of like walking pace. Right. Right. So we're not talking real fast, but it's like when you start to get a little bit quicker, it can be good for leveling of trail. 19:48 Okay. All right. Um, so any, do, any other questions on rollers- Nah... compaction pans, that type of stuff? Um, not yet. No. Okay. Yeah. And I guess, um, you know, that... I'll, I'll just say it again. 20:02 You know, if you're gonna get one implement, that's what you wanna get. I wish I could see it, though, like while I'm, while I'm grooming, I wanna see what the hell I'm doing back there, and I can't. 20:11 'Cause there's a lot going on back there. Oh, yeah. No, and it's... And I guess that's, that's another thing for people out there grooming. 20:16 It's like, it's way more important what's going on behind than what's [laughs] going on in front of you. Well, and you have to s- you have to know where the hell you're going. You don't have time- Yeah... 20:24 to swing around and, and look at stuff. Well, I spend a lot of time, you know, just sort of standing up s- you know, standing sideways on the sled- Sure... so I can look back, look forward, look back, look forward. Okay. 20:33 So that I can see what's going on. 20:34 Because, you know, sometimes, like I said, you know, if you get in certain kinds of snow or really deep snow, sometimes it'll crawl up and over your compaction pan, and you'll be like leaving a bunch of, you know, snow boulders all over the trail- Right. 20:45 Right... and stuff like that. That happened to me about a week ago. Okay. Based on the snow we got. It was really good compacting snow, so it kind of built up on the, the roller portion- Yeah. Yeah... 20:55 of the, you know, the, the groomer, and then it would, it would kind of build up to a certain point, and then it would like tumble off the back side. I got you. Yeah. I noticed those. Yeah. 21:04 So, you know, it, you know, things like that, then you're like, "Oh, okay. Maybe I need to adjust where the weight is on my groomer. 21:10 May- maybe I wanna put a little more weight on the roller so I get a little bit better pre-compaction before the pan's on there." 21:17 Because the pan is scraping it, and it's bu- you know, it's sort of scraping this top layer off, and it's, it's building up on top, and then it's depositing it after. 21:24 That night that we rode, we thought those were things coming off the trees. Oh, no. But now that, now that you're, now that you say that- Yeah... that's exactly what it was. And they're kinda... 21:33 At first, they're kind of fun to like blast through, then, but they end up kinda getting in the way. Oh, they do. You know? Yeah. Yeah. 21:39 I mean, it, it, it definitely s- I'm, I hate to put it this way, but it screws up the grooming. Yeah. 21:43 You know, it's, you know, you've got this great surface, then all of a sudden you've got these boulders you gotta dodge. Yeah. Which on a level is kind of fun. Sure. It adds some tactical- Yeah... interest. 21:51 It was, but then it was- But- Yeah... I'd much rather be carving up, you know, this just like butter smooth, consistent- Right... 21:58 you know, groomed surface where I can like drift corners left and right and have a good time that way. Okay. So. Where the hell are we? Well, okay. Rollers and compactors. I think we're- Yeah. Okay... 22:10 we're, we're done with that. I had a couple questions that got in the way. So another common implement... I should, I should, I, I, I take that back. It's a common skiing implement. 22:18 It's, I have not seen it in use nearly as much in the fat bike world, but that would end up being some sort of drag. And- Is this what they're running in Marquette? Um, yeah. The, the, the- Okay... 22:30 original groomer that I saw from Marquette was a drag. Okay. And- Up to 60 miles of single track fat bike trail... they're going nuts up there, which is awesome. 60 miles, that's incredible. That's so cool. Um- Anyway... 22:42 but okay. So- Tell me about these drags... what, what a drag is, is it's got these like metal teeth, and it will... You, you can kind of change the depth of the teeth, and it, it skims off the top layer of the snow. 22:56 Um, so you can control it to take off, let's say, the top inch of snow, and what it'll do is these metal teeth will like pull snow from the outside of the trail to the inside of the trail, and then they'll have teeth in the middle that will then like scrape off the middle of the trail and move it to the outside. 23:13 So basically, what it's doing is it's, it's scraping off a layer of trail. It's moving around. It's churning it up. 23:19 And then at the backside, you've got some sort of mat compaction area that like lays all this churned up, churned up snow back down in a really nice, consistent layer. So it sounds like it's doing 23:34 more of the end of the driveway than just the roller compactor, um, in terms of putting energy into it. That, that's exactly it, and the whole key with it is how it churns up the snow. 23:46 It like, it like scrapes a layer off, it moves that snow back and forth, it mixes it all up, and then you just, you s- you slap it back down. Okay. 23:54 And because it, it puts more energy into the snow, it breaks up the snow crystals, it mixes up the snow, so you get old and new snow mixed in there, and all those things bond up really well, and that tends to set up way better. 24:06 So, but that's an implement that you don't wanna use right away. Well, you don't wanna use that with a shit ton of fresh snow. 24:13 Like, if you get an eight-inch dump, it could be very, very, very, very difficult to use that implement. Okay. Because what's gonna happen is the snow is gonna build up in all those teeth. Yeah. 24:23 And it's, it's just gonna start to pile up.And it's gonna... Eventually, you're gonna be, you know, once again, kind of plowing through the snow more so than, like, processing the snow- Okay... and laying it back down. 24:33 So when do you use it? But before we, uh... Can you put pictures of this in show notes? Definitely, yeah. Okay. 24:40 'Cause I, I, I'm gonna need a visual listening to this, and so if I can pull over in the rest area and- [laughs]... go take a piss and then look at these pictures of these groomers, that'd help a lot. 24:50 But when do you use it then? So that's typically when you've got only a little bit of fresh snow, you're trying to take ruts out of the trail, um, you're trying to smooth out the trail. And it... 25:02 How does it, how does it not dive into the trail? What keeps it afloat? The... 25:06 Normally what you'll have is either it'll be the way it's, like, hooked onto the back of the implement, you know, the Rokon or the snowmobile or whatever. 25:14 That will control sort of the height of the front of the groomer, and then you've got this compaction mat on the back end. Mm-hmm. 25:21 Or you'll end up having, like, actually little skis on the front of it, and so you'll kind of have this frame that you've got little skis on the front, and you got this mat on the back that compacts everything that's done. 25:32 And then in between, you've got, uh, like, these teeth that you can raise and lower, and that, that controls your cutting depth- Okay... like how much you're skimming off the top of the snow. 25:41 So like, um, that old sled, the old runner sled with the rails? Yeah. Okay. Yeah, exactly. All right. Yep. Yeah, and then what would happen is in, kind of in between the runners- Yeah... 25:52 you know, you would end up having these teeth that you could either, you know, push down into the snow or not. Okay. 25:56 Now, what happens with this is that, you know how, like I said, the roller and the, the compaction pan type setup? It, it levels things out side to side, but it doesn't do it down the length of the pathway. Right. 26:08 You know, the length of the trail. Yep. Um, that's where drags are really cool because, um, a, a drag de- depending on how it's set up, how long it is, it will smooth out bumps fore and aft. 26:22 So what it does is it, it'll skim off the top of bumps- Yeah... and then it'll kind of build up in this, this processing area. Sure. And then when the trail drops away in a depression- Right... 26:33 it'll drop the snow out of it. So it takes the tops off, and it puts it into the lows. So it makes, depending on how long it is, you can kind of contour it to get for different radiuses. Okay. 26:44 You know, like, as you're riding down the trail as far as, like, how your berms and stuff go. Sure. Now, the pregame, pre-pod cast pregame is kind of getting in my way right now, but is there a compactor- [laughs]... 26:55 on the back? Yes. Okay. Pretty much, pretty much every single one of these- I know you said that. I just spaced it out because of the pregame, but. 27:00 Well, but pretty much every single one of these situations, you know, you're gonna end up doing a bunch of stuff to the snow, and then you're gonna, you know, smash it back down. 50, 60 pounds on the back. Yeah. 27:11 You're gonna do something to compact the snow and- Okay... like, lay it out in a really nice flat plane. Okay. And so, you know, just like with the roller, how you've got that pan on the back. Yeah. 27:20 You've got something similar with the drag. Okay. You've got something to, like, lay the snow out flat and nice when you're done. So in our ideal fat bike grooming world, um, 27:32 not talking about what we're pulling it with, that we'll get to that in a minute, but- Yep... um, I want to have not only a roller with a pan, then I wanna have a drag with a pan. Yep. 27:44 So depending upon how much snow I get, how old the snow is- Yep... how bumpy it is, I will use my implement that I need. So for an example, I mean, you've just started grooming the Big M. 27:56 And the way our snow cycle just went is we've got, I don't know, somewhere around 40 inches of snow over the last couple weeks, and it, you know, it- it's just been pretty much continual new snow, new snow, new snow, new snow. 28:08 Right, right. So, you know, you just wanna keep rolling that in because it's this, it's this new snow. Typically, you can't use the drag on too high amounts of, um, new snow. Of new snow. 28:19 You know, we, we've been getting, you know, like five, six inches- Sure... you know, at a time. Right. There's been a few patches where it's been one or two inches, but- Right... we've been getting a good amount of snow. 28:26 Yeah. So you gotta roll that in. So if you look what happened with, like, the trail today when we rode it, it was kind of, there were some few spots were a little bit bumpy. Right. 28:34 You know, and it's like, it was fine side to side- Sure... except for some of the camber. 28:38 Um, but what it wasn't all that hot on was, like, there were some spots where it was, like, if you're riding down it, it just, I mean, it was, it was bumpy as needed. Yeah, it was just bu- lumpy. Yeah. 28:47 So that's where a drag would be really good. So- So what we're going into right now is this next little period, it's gonna be a little bit warmer where we're at. We're not gonna get a lot of snow. 28:56 We might get some, but it's not gonna be a ton. Um, so this is, like, when you'd wanna crack out the drag. You've g- And we haven't... Once you build up your base. Right. Yeah. Once you can walk on it. Yeah. 29:08 Regardless of when the... Regardless of how much snow you get, there's gonna be that base there that you'll always be able to find, hopefully, if you have decent enough tires. Right. Okay. 29:17 E- e- exact- Yeah, 'cause, like, if you look at our base right now, we've got somewhere between five and six inches of base. Right. Which- You know, just this perfectly compacted snow. Sure. 29:26 'Cause, you know, luckily we've been getting out. I shouldn't say perfectly, but it's well-compacted snow. Right. We've been getting out there. We've been, you know, grooming it consistently. Yep, yep, yep. 29:33 So, you know, we've got this really nice thick layer. Okay. And- So now you can implement... You can use the second implement to kind of dial in what you need to have done. Exactly. Okay. Now, w- is there, is there... 29:47 Wow, okay. So we use this for the rest of January and February then? Well, I mean, it just, it, it depends more on what kind of snow you're getting and how much snow you're getting. Okay. 29:56 So what about the guys that are using the plows? Okay. Yeah. So the, there's a third kind of major type of implement that people are using, uh, with mechanized grooming, and this is, this one's, I, 30:07 from what I've seen, even more rare than the drags. Um, drags are a really popular thing among, um, ski groomers. Yeah. They're starting to be a little bit more popular with fat bike groomers. 30:20 Um, but then the, I only know of two places that are using a plow. Okay. And- On the backCorrect Okay Now, uh, I'll talk about plows on the front and the ski world a little bit. Okay. 30:31 'Cause I think this is an area of development- Okay... for fat biking. But, um, so, [clears throat] uh, as far as I know, Marquette and Traverse City are the only two places I've seen that are using a plow. 30:44 And where a plow would be really good is that, let's say you've gone through this period where you've got just this killer base. It's super, super, super, super durable. 30:51 Okay And you're one week out from a really big event, and you get 12, you know, inches of powder. Okay Which is, you know, this, this type of powder that, you know, you can't make a snowball out of. 31:04 It just does not want to bond. It does not want to compact. Okay You don't want your event to go on on that kind of snow because it's just gonna get churned to shit. 31:14 Can you stir it up enough and put it back down like your driveway to get it going? If, if you get, like, 12 inches plus- Oh... you might have a hard time doing that. Okay. 31:22 All right Because when you compact that down, you're gonna have this, like, slurry layer- Yeah... that's, like, two, three inches thick at the top. 31:28 Okay And it's very difficult to cut down all the way through that to get to the old snow. Right. 31:34 So in that type of situation, that's where the plow comes in because what you can do is you can throw that new snow off and get back down to this really killer base that you had. Okay. 31:44 It- So it's, that, to me, it's like, it, it makes me cringe a little bit 'cause I come kind of from the ski grooming world. And in ski grooming, no matter what you do, you do not remove snow from the trail. Why is that? 31:58 Because as soon as the snow is gone, as soon as all your base melts in the spring, you are not skiing anymore. 32:04 Okay So it's very different than the fat bike world, whereas we don't really give a shit if your snow disappears. It just means a change, and all of a sudden you're riding on dirt now. Right. Okay, okay. 32:14 So you still can go out there, and you can still- Right... do it. We can ride on snow on dirt. They can't sne- ski on dirt. Right. That's exactly right. 32:21 [laughs] So, you know, they wanna do everything they can to keep and build their base. Okay They're never gonna do something to, like, diminish their base. Makes sense. Yeah. Whereas- I understand... 32:29 for, like, in the fat bike world, and this is, this is something that I'm gonna be interested to see how it plays out because, um, I'm gonna go on a total tangent here, so you might have to pull me back. All right. 32:38 See you later. But, [clears throat] so w- one of the things you wanna do is every time you get fresh snow, you wanna groom the shit out of that right away. 32:46 And a big reason for that is because compacted snow will conduct cold into the ground far better than, like, a big fluffy snow with a bunch of air in it. Okay Fluffy snow insulates the ground. Yeah. 33:00 So what, what you wanna do is you wanna groom that stuff. 33:04 You wanna compact it down so that it can conduct the cold on those cold nights into the ground because when you have a warm-up, that cold ground will then maintain your snow. 33:16 So it's, it's basically, you, you know, come spring, you're gonna cash out on all that cold you built up. Now, um, the thing about that is that's also gonna make it so that, you know, you probably have seen this. 33:31 In the spring, [laughs] you know, if you've got a compacted trail, like people have been walking on it or, you know- Oh, yeah... been groomed or whatever, that's the last thing to melt all year. Ugh, yeah. 33:40 And it sucks because it's, it's that nasty stuff. It's that boiler plate. Right. 33:44 You know, it's that last inch or two where it just, you know, when it melts, you know, the water kind of builds up in it, and then it freezes again, and it just gets this super icy nastiness. Sure, sure. 33:52 So it's not e- it's, it's not good riding even if you have studs and stuff. I mean, it's just, it's sketch. So, um, what I'm kind of wondering, to pull this back- Okay... 34:02 is that if people can really dial in their grooming for fat biking so that come, let's say, March- They can time it perfectly. Yeah. 34:12 So come March, which, you know, and this, this is different in every region, but I was actually just looking at our sto- snow statistics- Okay... 'cause I'm a dork. Right. 34:20 [laughs] And for our county- Oh, part of the camp... and, yeah, [laughs] historically, um, March is our biggest snow month of the year. [laughs] That's ridiculous. No one would ever get that trivia question right. 34:30 I, I have seen the data. What month do we get the most snow? Yeah. So- January, February... Oh, fucking whatever. So what- Anyway... what I'm thinking is, I don't have a plow to play with. 34:39 I would love to have a plow to play with, but what I'm thinking is that if starting in March, every big snow we got, instead of pressing it down- You throw it off... Yeah, exactly. You throw it off. 34:50 What'll probably happen is the trails will melt off at approximately the right amount of time so you're not just left with, you know, this, the snow on- Yeah... your single track. You know, everything- Right... 35:01 melts off. You can get into the woods, and you're riding single track. You'll have snow banks that you're riding a single track through 'cause you threw it all off at the right time. Right. Yeah. Ex- ex- exactly. 35:10 Eh, e- Yeah... not really, but yeah. No, but I mean, that, that, that's an area where I'm, I'll be interested to see where this goes in the next couple years because- Huh... 35:17 this, the, the, once I get, you know, kind of going back to the, your expert groomers, your, your veteran groomers, they're gonna kind of have that feel for it and be like, "Okay, we're at the point in the season where we want to start throwing snow off instead of adding snow on- Right... 35:29 so that everything melts off, and then people can get out there and ride and have- Right... a good time on dirt." That fucking genius makes sense right there. Holy shit. [laughs] Geez. 35:36 So, so plows are a, it's, it's a highly specialized- You don't know shit. [laughs] I think plows are a highly specialized tool- Right... 35:46 that I think we're gonna see more and more because it allows you to take your snow down to a level where you know it's gonna be rock solid for an event. Right. 35:57 You know, you're not gonna have this legacy boilerplate bullshit come spring. You're gonna be riding on dirt as soon as you can. Um, are there still a lot of events in March? 36:07 I mean, are we still competing all the way through March on fat bikes? Well, actually, I, [laughs] uh- Mm... I, we've s- started to see a little bit of an evolution on that. 36:17 A lot of times it seems like a lot of the events were starting out in January and February. Right, right, right. The first few years of fat bike races. Sure. And now they're starting to go a little bit later. Yeah. 36:25 Personally, I think, you know, like, for our region, March is the best time of the yearIt's when you start getting the freeze-thaw cycles, the days are longer. Oh, yeah. So you're starting... 36:33 You know, like in our case, we get a lot of lake-effect snow. Um, so typically- Freeze-thaw. Aw, that's, that sucks... January and February, or beginning of February, tend to be pretty cloudy. Yeah. 36:43 And then late February going into March, it gets really sunny. So that, that sun working on the snow- Yeah... helps to, you know, make it nice again. Sure. 36:53 You know, so you, you can get really good crust riding and things like that. Yeah. So I personally think that March is kind of the sweet spot for events because your snow tends to end up being a lot more durable. Gotcha. 37:06 The thing is you gotta hold it at the right time of the day because you might end up having a thing where it freezes overnight, but then it warms up above freezing during the day and turns to mashed potatoes. Yeah. Um, 37:17 is there... Th- this is less about snow crystals, but does a snowmobile do something different to pulling a groomer than a rocon does? No. Those, those seem to be the two main things right now. Yeah. You know? 37:29 No, I, I'm gonna be perfectly honest. I'm, I'm kinda ignorant. I don't have a lot of first-hand experience driving a rocon. Okay. 37:36 Um, from what I can tell, it doesn't have necessarily the same, uh, pulling power and capacity that a utility snowmobile would have. Okay. 37:47 The trade-off, though, is that it's a much more small, agile vehicle, so you can go through a lot tighter trail. So- But it, but it probably doesn't make a difference in terms of what's going on behind you. 38:01 Well, yes, it does. Okay. Because if you've got a vehicle that's not as capable of pulling, like, you know, this high torque thing behind you- Sure... 38:09 that means that you are less capable of putting as much energy into the snow. Oh. 38:14 So, you know, like when I talk about a drag, the thing about a drag is that it, it takes a ton of energy to skim that top layer off, mix all that snow up, and then put it back down. Okay. 38:25 I mean, what, what you're doing is, you know, instead of, like, a roller, you got this wheel that you're pulling behind you. [laughs] Sure, yeah. You know, really easy to have it go over. Then- Right... 38:32 what you do is you got these teeth that you're, like, setting down with weights into the snow, and you're scraping off snow. I mean, it's like- Yeah... 38:40 obviously, that's gonna take a hell of a lot more horsepower to pull. Oh. 38:44 So, you know, that's one of those things where, you know, another reason why a drag doesn't work in a higher snow environment is 'cause you don't have the traction to pull it. Oh, okay. 38:54 So you're thinking is that probably a snowmobile would be a more, I don't... appropriate vehicle to pull it, a drag, than the rocon? But- It, it, it could be. It, it really- Okay... it depends on your trail system. Yeah. 39:05 I'm sure that somebody will let us know. All 14 people that listen to us probably, one of 'em might know. Well- You know?... 39:11 but I mean, like, with, with the rocon, what you might be able to end up doing is, okay, yeah, if you had a drag of the same exact width as on another trail being pulled by a snowmobile, it might take more energy. 39:23 Or, you... The, the rocon might not have enough power to pull that. Right. So okay, what you do is instead of grooming it 30, 32 inches wide, then you groom it, you know, at 28, 24 inches wide. Okay. 39:33 So you, you can match it to the vehicle in that respect. Right. Okay. So there, there's some things you can end up doing that way, and that, that's... I'm... We're... 39:42 Our, our cycling club just ended up acquiring a rocon pretty recently. Yep. Um, I'm looking forward to checking that out. Um, I think we're hopefully gonna end up acquiring another one next year- Oh, yeah... 39:54 and groom some more trails. So, um, you know, I think, I think there's a time and a place for both implements depending on what your trail conditions are. Gotcha. 40:02 Um, I propose that we take a break finally and come back with just a short section about some things that you might be able to afford. What do you think? Is that a good idea? I think that sounds like an excellent idea. 40:15 Awesome. We're gonna take a break. We'll be right back. It's a snow day. Hallelujah. It's a snow day. Hallelujah. Welcome back, campers. Greetings, earthlings. 40:31 Uh, one thing that we just, uh, freshly back from our, uh, relieving ourselves, um, and you've told me about this a lot, hey, make sure that you don't groom when? [laughs] When it's above freezing. Okay. 40:46 Um, now- Why is that?... it, you, you... I don't wanna end up saying that you should never do it. You certainly can do it. You're full of shit. Yeah, it... There- there's conditions where you can do that. 40:54 The problem is that typically when it gets above freezing, snow gets really slippery. So whatever vehicle that you're using out there- Yeah... you're gonna slip and slide. You're gonna... 41:06 You know, like if it's a snowmobile, you're gonna leave ruts and stuff- Okay... like that in the trail. Right. And what happens is every time you fuck up grooming, it is just cemented in there when it freezes again. 41:17 Okay. So it's one of those things where it's, it's high stakes grooming. If, if you think you can get out there and you can just, like, make it mint and you're not gonna fuck it up at all, 41:26 go for it, but the thing is if you do fuck up, then it's basically locked in. Question I had for you, is 31, 32 okay and 33 is not? I mean, where- Yes and no. Okay, so- When do you, when do you pull me over? 41:43 I'm going 60. Am I... You know? [laughs] So okay, get- getting back to, like, what I talked about before, whereas, you know, compacted snow is really great for conducting the cold into the ground. Right. 41:55 So what happens if you... If, let's say, um, that you're doing spring grooming conditions. Okay. And, you know, like for our area, what that means is clear skies. Yeah. So nights are super cold. 42:08 Days, you're starting to get sun. It, it's starting to get warm. So what happens is that, you know, it... Let's say it got down to, you know, 10 degrees that night. Okay. 42:19 Your snow is going to stay cold very late into the afternoon. Like, what you register on your thermostat in your car or wherever- Okay. Yeah... or like on the weather- Sure... that is gonna be way higher. 42:30 That's gonna be, you know, five to 10 degrees higher than what the snow temperature is. At that level.Right Okay Because that cold is coming back up out of the ground. 42:39 Okay So, um, and then at the same token, sometimes that, that top, you know, like half inch or whatever is above freezing and it's starting to melt, but you get down below it, and it doesn't take very long at all, and it's really fucking cold. 42:53 Okay So, you know, there's some, some conditions like that where you still have a lot of cold in the snow where you're... I mean, you could, you could groom when it's, you know, 38, 39, 40 degrees. As long as it's 43:07 earlier than later in the day? Exactly. Okay. Yeah. And the night before, it dropped down to 12 because the full moon was sh- keeping your wife silhouette all lit up for you. [laughs] Anyway. Yeah, yeah. Moving on. 43:21 Right. Right. Yeah. No, y- that- that's exactly though. You just- Right... like if it was a really cold night, you can- Okay... you know, wait longer and you could groom. 43:28 But if, if that night it, it hovered, you know, it dropped down to 30- Yeah... you know, then, and it got up to 38, you might wanna stay off the trail? Exactly. Okay. All right. All right. I gotcha. 43:40 And, and the thing is this applies to riding the trail also. Sure Because, you know, y- if the trail turns to mashed potatoes and you all go out there and ride it, and you rut the shit out of it- Yeah... you are a dick. 43:53 You know? Yeah 'Cause that temperature's gonna drop, and you just like rutted the fuck out of this trail. You know? Same thing with the mud. Yeah. Oh, th- Yeah... that's exactly it. Yeah. Yeah. 44:00 So now that groomer's gotta work super hard to fill in your ruts and, you know, it's almost an impossible situation- Okay... to like make them totally go away, even with, for the best groomer or the best snow conditions. 44:10 So, you know, don't be a dick. Right. Don't ride on warm trails. But dude, I needed to ride. It was my training day. Forget my... You... Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. [laughs] Anyway. Yeah. Okay. 44:19 So, you know, it, it, it's the classic thing of if your tires are import- imprinting more than an inch in the snow, you know, lower your pressure- Sure... or don't ride. Yeah. You know? 44:29 No, that's good to know though 'cause that's gonna happen for the next couple months is I'm gonna have that question in my head of, ooh, do I go out and groom? 44:37 'Cause forecast says this, and temperature's actually this, and last night it was actually that. You know? Well, and then the other piece is, uh, precipitation. 44:44 If you get rain, what happens with rain, if you got a lot of base, it just, it kinda like drains through the snow and you're fine. Okay. It's not a big deal. Um, what it does do is it takes density out of your snow. 44:55 So once we start getting into the spring here, if we start getting some rains, you know, you might have six inches of this base that you've built up all year that's been super solid and it's super strong. 45:05 Yeah But then if you get a rain, it'll take the density out of that snow, and now all, all of a sudden it'll really compromise your base. Oh, okay. So that it might not have enough snow crystals in there anymore- Yeah... 45:17 you know, these ice crystals to kinda hold together, and it'll make it so that it's not nearly as dense, not nearly as strong, and it'll go to shit- Wow... way quicker. Gotcha. That's interesting. Yeah. 45:29 So, um, I mean, in general, what makes your snow disappear is if you get rain, it removes density from the snow. If you get like warm wind- Wind... that, that will melt the snow very fast. 45:41 That really sh- So, you know, when you kinda get those two alternating, it's kind of a one-two punch and your snow disappears fast. Yeah. So. Yeah. Um, 45:50 so we've talked a lot about like mechanized, like motorized grooming and things like that. Um, there's, there's a lot of really viable ways to end up grooming trail and it's human powered. Is it worth it? Um, it can be. 46:04 Okay. It, it depends more on what your snow is. Now, kinda getting back to this whole thing I started with where, you know, this isn't about compaction. 46:11 This is about putting energy into that snow to break up snow crystals and churn it up and do all this other kind of stuff. Yeah. Um, you know, when you're human powered grooming, y- you're not... 46:23 You're dealing with way less horsepower- Sure... to put energy into the snow. Sure. So you're not gonna be able to churn the snow up nearly as much. You're not gonna be able to end up compacting it as much. 46:32 You're just not gonna be able to put as much energy into it. What's the best way to do it then? There's, there's no best way. 46:38 I mean, it depends on what kind of snow you've got and stuff, but I mean, I mean, there's, there's always the classic thing 'cause, you know, part of this has to do with, okay, how strong is the person that's pulling it? 46:47 You know, it's like if you got a total ox who can go out there and who can- Yeah... like, you know, put a ton of energy into the snow, what... However they do that, that's gonna be the best way to groom it. 46:56 But, you know, realistically, you know, if you're like snowshoeing it and you're pulling a tire behind you- Right... that tire doesn't really compact anything. It just, it kinda smooths it out and makes it nice. Yeah. 47:06 So then once the snow sets up, then you got this nice surface. You know, it gets rid of the, the lumpy bumpy stuff- Sure... the snowshoes do. So, you know, that's, that's a, a timeless way to do it. 47:17 There's, um, some human powered grooming type things- Yeah... 47:21 where they're, they're essentially some sort of compaction drag type thing, um, where what it'll do is it'll, it'll pack down the snow, and it'll try to scour it. 47:32 So b- essentially, what's, what's gonna happen is you want a certain amount of snow to build up in front of that implement, so it'll drop into the holes and smooth stuff out. And it'll also fill... 47:44 you know, take off ruts. You know, basically, you know, scour the snow a little bit so it takes off the, you know, the, the tops of the ruts. Create some loose snow that'll drop into the holes. Gotcha. 47:54 So there, there's a variety of things like that. There's actually a, a guy who makes like these plastic, uh, I think it, it's called something like human powered groomer or whatever. Okay. 48:06 I've, I've made a couple of things off of that design, and they work pretty darn good. I mean, he's, he's got a pretty solid design for human powered grooming, but- Yeah... it's, it's still pretty flipping hard. 48:17 It's a, it's a pretty interesting thing to Google. Yeah. Human powered groomers. So- You get all kinds of dog shows. Yeah. And, you know, there's, there's a million different things out there. 48:26 You know, like when I talked about drags earlier, um, you know, [laughs] in a lot of cases, that kind of is derived from like, you know, people pulling bed frames and shit like that. Right. Yeah. 48:36 You know, it's just something that is gonna end up scouring up the snow. It's gonna stir it up, and then it's gonna drop it back down. Sure. So, you know, there's a million different varieties on that. 48:45 [laughs] It's, it's, it's crazy that, to know that not so long ago-I was-- you were googling human-powered groomers, and now just because of the boom of the groom, there's so much grooming going on. Oh, yeah. 49:02 It's, it's super nice. I'm, I'm really glad that- In Georgia, but- [laughs]... you know, whatever. 49:08 No, it's just-- it, it's pretty cool 'cause, um, I mean, everybody wants to ride groomed trails, and the reason why is 'cause groomed trails are fucking great. Yeah. Oh, yeah. 49:15 Um, you know, it, it's just, it's one of those things where it's like you can have the speed, the fun of summer single track, but then you just have the surface to work with that's, like, c-super consistent to edge to edge, you know, sometimes. 49:29 Sometimes it's rutted or whatever. It's like, but it's just, you, it's, there's so many nuances to it. It's a whole new riding experience. 49:37 You can, you can basically figure out where you wanna ride, and as soon as the snow starts falling, you can start dialing that in. Yeah. Um, but you just gotta make sure that you're, you gotta do it. Yeah. 49:47 That's the thing. And I really, I didn't think I was gonna like it. I thought it was gonna be more of a pain in the ass. [laughs] But I really have come to enjoy doing that, and I'm not a motor sports kinda guy. 50:00 [laughs] But, you know, riding the snowmobile and knowing that I'm, I'm laying down, I'm, I'm preparing this trail for people to have a good time- Yep... it's really a good feeling to have. Yeah. 50:09 For me, it's kind of this, this dual-pronged thing. It's, one is it gets me out there when I normally wouldn't be out there, and you see all sorts of beautiful things. Right. 50:18 It's just, you know, typically what you wanna do is you get this big dump of snow, you know, school's closed. You know- Yeah, yeah, yeah... you can barely get anywhere. 50:26 You know, you, you go out to the trailhead, and then you go out there, and- Yeah... you're the only one out there in this, this powder world, which is just gorgeous. Yeah. And it's a really neat thing to experience. 50:36 So there's kind of the, the, the act itself. You know, it gets you out there in nature, and you see neat stuff. But then the other part is just like you were saying. It's you are, you are making fun stuff. 50:47 You know, you are making this thing that you wanna ride, that other people are gonna get stoked about to ride. Yeah. I mean, it's just, it's this really, really, really, really cool thing. 50:56 I mean, you are, you are, like, just, like, you know, building up karma left and right. Totally. You're like this Wizard of Oz, and people are like, "I wonder who did this?" And you're like, "I know who fucking did it." 51:05 Yeah. The fucking trail angel. I'm right behind you. [laughs] Move over, will ya? Yeah. Give me a few. Yeah. And, but, uh, t- uh, I had a thought. I don't know what I was thinking. 51:19 [laughs] I think we probably are done talking about this stuff. Uh, even though after we are, we put the microphones down, we'll, we'll still continue to talk about it. Yeah. 51:29 I, I mean, grooming's one of those things that, um, I find it super, super, super interesting because it just, it, every, uh, different snow reacts in a different way. Right. 51:39 And, you know, it's like, I mean, you know, for me, I walk out the door to walk the dogs in the morning, and it snowed overnight, and then it's like I'm making snowballs so I can see what kinda snow I'm dealing with. 51:50 [laughs] And I'm already starting to think about, okay, I gotta do this to the snow or- Right... you know, this, that, or whatever. 51:56 Um, you know, it's, it, grooming is really interesting because, you know, you're just, you're basically creating this new trail every single time you do it- To-... to go ride. Yeah. 52:07 You know, it, it might be the similar to the trail you rode, you know, two nights ago, or it might be a completely different beast. Right. 52:14 And it's just, it's pretty darn neat to, you know, have this ever-changing surface that you get to go ride and experience and learn and, you know, like, just go out there and play on. Right. 52:26 So hopefully, if you're listening, you have a chance to find some local trails that are being groomed by some groom angels. [laughs] If you see them, give them lots of beer. Yeah. They deserve it. 52:38 They'll totally appreciate it. Yep. So- And I think, you wanna close it out? Yeah. 52:43 So, campers, um, I- hopefully you're all enjoying snow or, you know, dreaming of snow or something along those lines, you know, having a good time on your fat bike. And we really appreciate you listening. 52:55 Like I said at the get-go, if you think I'm full of shit, you think, you know, what I'm talking about is wrong, you know, chime in. We would love to end up hearing from you. 53:04 Um, there's not as much grooming science as I would like to make this all definitive. This is a lot based on my experience and my research, so- Taller is better. [laughs] Yeah, as Gomez would say. 53:18 [laughs] So, um, you know, hey, we would love to end up hearing from you. So thanks for listening, and happy trails. Peace. You don't have to. Ooh. 53:36 Thanks for listening. The music we are using on today's show is Keith Morris and The Crooked Numbers, and a live rendition of their song, "Snow Day," from the Free Music Archive. 53:45 You can find all our shows at fatbike.com, including notes for today's show. 53:51 [rock music] [cheering]
