Transcript 0:00 [upbeat music] Welcome back to Chair Number Nine for December 19th, 2015. 0:15 This show is about fat bike trails and grooming, and I must say that Andy looks damn fine because of it. [upbeat music] Ooh. Ooh. Ooh. 0:36 Welcome, campers. Um, this show, we're gonna kind of shift gears a little bit. Mm-hmm. Yes. 0:42 Um, instead of it being about sort of, you know, technical bike related stuff, um, we're gonna talk a little bit about what we've had going on lately because we thought that it might be applicable to others and, you know, might get other people fired up about developing fat bike trails, 'cause that's basically what we've been doing. 1:01 We've been making fat bike trails. We've been lining up grooming supplies. 1:04 I'm sure that you'll find a way to make it, this, this, uh, fat bike trails kind of podcast some- Oh, there'll, there'll be some sort of geekatoon in there... 1:13 some threads of, uh, technical, uh, trail building or something. So [laughs] need not worry if you're out there listening, all four of you. Yeah. We'll, we'll, we'll... It'll be a dark show. 1:22 We'll, we'll put you to sleep. Don't worry. [laughs] So on that note, uh, welcome, campers, and we're gonna lead into the next section here soon. 1:30 [upbeat music] Well, cool, here we are, uh, mid-December, 1:57 um, and there's not any white stuff whatsoever. Um, holidays are coming up, and we'd really like to get out in some snow, but I don't know if it's gonna happen. 2:08 Even with, when, when the forecast is a slight chance of some lake effect, uh, we're like, ooh, we, we're gonna get snow, but in all reality it's just gonna warm back up next week for the long term forecast. 2:21 But I'll be perfectly honest. I mean, as much as I want snow to ride on- Oh, totally, yeah... 2:25 um, I'm actually kind of glad that we haven't had snow yet because we've had a few projects in the hopper lately that, uh, um, are related to, you know, trail development and grooming and getting some cool stuff going on in our area. 2:39 So it's given us a little more time to, um, do a little more trail work before we gotta worry about actually, you know, grooming trails. 2:47 How much, how many miles of pink tape do you think you've been through in the last two months? Oh, God, it's a scary thought. Um- A lot of rolls, though. Yeah. 2:54 I, I- I, I noticed that you had to switch over to kind of a darker red. Yeah. I've, I've, I've been... I have more... Like, we're, we're talking about that pink ribbon that you can, like, the surveyor's ribbon. 3:04 Um, I, I know I've gone through more than a dozen rolls of it so far. Yeah. Yeah. And I think it's, like, 250 meters a roll or something like that, so. It's a bit ridiculous. 3:12 There's a little bit of Pepto-Bismol on, uh, every fifth tree that, that, uh, Ken's gonna tell you about what's going on locally here. 3:19 So yeah, what, what, what we're alluding to here is, um, we, we've had a couple different trail projects. 3:24 Uh, you know, in our area we've had some really good fat biking because we have, I, I don't know exactly the best way of describing it, but legacy snowmobile trails that we've ridden on quite a bit in previous years. 3:37 But we really haven't had a whole heck of a lot of groomed trail. Um, we had about five miles of consistently groomed trail, um, at, uh, Crystal Mountain Resort. 3:47 That was kind nice, but to be perfectly honest, um, we had way better riding elsewhere that was just on snowmobile trail that got just enough usage that it would get packed in and be really good for riding, but it wasn't so much usage that, um, you'd have to even, heck, worry about seeing a snowmobile- I haven't even-... 4:07 on any given ride. Yeah, I haven't heard that term legacy snowmobile trail, but I, now that you defined it, it makes sense. There's a lot of trail those guys are out riding around that's not groomed. 4:15 Yeah, I mean, we've got several hundred miles of trail that kind of fall in that category just within a little ways away from where we live, and, uh, it's, it's pretty cool stuff because, um, like I said, most rides you don't see any snowmobiles. 4:30 No. But they've done all the work of grooming and getting everything dialed in, and you get to go some really cool spots. 4:36 And these are, a lot of times it's, it's a combination of public land and private land, but for whatever reason people are totally cool with, um, uh, snowmobiles using it during the winter. 4:46 Um, they form a lot of corridors between some of the, uh, the sort of the cities and the villages in our area, um, so that people can basically use their snowmobile from their house. 4:57 And, um, none of it's, like, official or anything like that, but once you kind of get to know the network, you can go some really, really, really awesome places, and it's way better than the groomed, uh, snowmobile trail, uh, for fat biking locally. 5:11 Back to the pink ribbon, though? Yep. So that's- [laughs] So what we wanna do this year is, uh, we've, we've been putting a big push on to get a lot more groomed fat bike trails. 5:22 And this show's gonna end up being talking about some of the projects we've got going on because we have a couple different scenarios that might apply to other people around, country- Sure... world, whatever. 5:34 Oh, I'm sure our situation isn't unique. No, no, exactly. 5:38 We've got, like I said, we got a couple different situations, so, um, you know, th- there's a pretty good chance that you might end up falling in one of these scenarios and might be able to do something similar. Right. 5:46 Yeah. If you're not already doing something similar. What, what's the first project that you got going on? So that is, um, uh, it's, it's called the, the City of Manistee Non-Motorized Trail Park. Nice. 6:00 It, they, and I will tell you right now, that was a name that was made by committee. Oh. And, yes. I, I- Okay. [laughs] So [laughs] if you couldn't tell by how long it was. Right. 6:08 But no, this, this is, um, it's a, it's 100 and, like, 70, 180 acres of, uh, city land that was-Originally designated for an entirely different use. I think it was like an airport or something. 6:23 Um, but then when they decided not to put the airport there, then they were like, "Okay, you know, the state is only gonna allow the city to have this if they use it for recreational purposes." 6:33 But then nobody could really figure out what they wanted to do recreationally, so it's just sorta sat around. And- It's about three, four miles out of town? Yeah. Yep. Okay. Yep, exactly. Just a little ways. Yep. 6:45 Um, and it was logged, um, back in about 2010, and there was very little oversight. They kinda trashed the entire area. It ain't the prettiest piece of property you'll see. No, no. 6:58 So y- you know, basically this entire thing is kind of your, your classic cast-off, nobody knows what to do with this property, so, hey, what the hell, let's build some trails on it- Right... kinda deal. 7:09 So, uh, back in like 2011, I ended up writing up a site plan that detailed, you know, kind of a long range, you know, 5 to 10-year plan. 7:19 You know, sub- submitted that to the city council, did a presentation in front of them, and got the okay to build a bunch of trail. Oh, you were Mr. Important that night, yeah. Yes. 7:28 So what we first ended up doing is we built a bunch of cross-country ski trail, and what the rationale was on that is, uh, we, we built it all like 10 to 12 feet wide so it could be groomed for both skate skiing and for, uh, cross, uh, classic cross country. 7:44 And, uh, during the summer months, the great part about it is you can drive a vehicle down it. It's like, kinda like a one-lane vehicle pathway. Hmm. 7:51 So you can get equipment out pretty much throughout the entire property without having to, you know, drive it, you know, uh, a long ways. So it ju- it makes it very convenient to end up doing work with equipment. 8:06 Um, we've had a few different cool things going on, like, um, the city ended up doing a, [chuckles] a big sewer project, and there's a lot of clay in the city. Oh, yeah. 8:15 But, um, out at the trail park, all the, all the dirt is r- you know, basically just s- pretty sandy. It's, it drains super, super, super well. 8:24 So we ended up, you know, finagling the city to haul a bunch of clay out to our trail park and dump it out there. 8:31 So we've got a dirt jump area, and, um, pump track, and some of the other stuff where you want a, a higher clay content soil. Needs a little bit of TLC. Yeah, yeah. We gotta- But it's all in place. 8:42 Yeah, we gotta work on that, but yep. I mean, that's... And, and the good part is we have a really good supply of dirt that you can make into features in the long run. Yeah. 8:51 So the combination of having really good quality dirt that you can work with and form stuff out of, and having this, this trail network that you can transport that dirt all over this 170, 180 acres- Sure, sure... 9:03 on a need-to basis is gonna give us a lot of flexibility in the long run to build bank corners, berms, and a whole bunch of other fun stuff to ride. Rad, dude. 9:12 So, um, that's kind of the background information on this trail park, and one of the things that we've had the green light on to do is build single track. 9:22 So what we decided to do is kick it off this winter and start building fat bike trail. Well, the reason for that, didn't it come from, 9:31 uh, grooming it in the winter for skate skiing and for classic, and then when some fat bikers went out there, maybe they ran a little bit too high pressure, or maybe the situations- [laughs]... 9:41 and so now the skiers are whining again. Yeah. So- The, the skiers didn't like it. 9:45 Th- thank you for bringing that up, 'cause that, that is an important piece because the, all these ski trails have been opened up to fat bikes. And, you know, some of us- About three years. 9:53 Yeah, some of us enthusiast guys have been out there a few times, but I mean, quite frankly, we had way better options, so we didn't really use it. Right. 9:59 But the cool part is, um, some, some people who I would say are not, like, your, your hardcore fat biker- More and more people are buying fat bikes, and they need a place to ride them. Yeah, yeah. 10:09 And they ended up going out there. Yeah. They didn't really know what they were doing, so they were running too high a pressure, and they did leave some ruts and stuff like that. But it's not, it, it's not a big deal. 10:17 But, um, fat biking on ski trails, kind of a hot topic around here, and there's- Right... a couple of skiers that started getting vocal about it, so we were just like, all right, whatever. 10:28 This is a good excuse to build some fat bike trail. So- Now we're building, like, five miles of dedicated fat bike trail. Um, 90-what-percent done? Uh, we're almost... We're, like, 99%- Okay... done cutting the corridor. 10:41 Okay. Um- And we got-- You've done most of the work, Ken, but, um, a couple, you know, there's a handful of us that get out there when we can and give him a hand. But I think you did five miles of trail? Yeah. 10:53 It's gonna work out to be almost exactly five miles of trail for this year. Sweet. We've kind of set aside areas where we've got another five miles we can build out there. 11:00 And then the cool part about this is, you know, I talked previously about our legacy snowmobile trails. This ties right into that entire network. 11:06 So in that general area, you know, you've got probably 20, 25 miles of, you know, pretty good stuff to ride. Um, five miles of which we know is always gonna be primo because we're gonna be able to groom it. Right. 11:18 So now the skiers have, have their, their four miles of trail, and the fat bikers will have their five miles of trail. 11:23 And I can, you know, for some, for some of the, um, non-cyclist good friends that I have, that'll be perfect for them to go out and do two laps of that. 11:34 They'll feel great, and it'll be awesome, and it'll get used, and people will keep on using it. It, the terrain is perfect for it. Yeah, and this, I mean, I guess that's one other important thing on this. 11:42 Um, it, it's pretty flat property. Total elevation of 12 feet. Yeah, pretty much. That's about it. 11:48 Um, so, you know, whatever micro elevation we have, um, I've basically wound the trails up and down that as much as I possibly can and, you know, it's... 11:59 We basically tried to make it both beginner friendly but also pretty fun. Um- I think you, I think you did some great lines. Yeah. You know how you do the virtual handlebars as you're clearing the trail- [laughs]... 12:08 and kinda sweep through there. You're like, "This is gonna be a great section of flat, twisty stuff." Yeah, so what we've been doing- You know? Yeah. 12:15 Basic, basic specs, um, we've been clearing, um, a pathway approximately 48 inches or slightly wider, um, through the woods. 12:24 And-What we plan to do and what you might plan to, plan to do is to find an old retired guy who's really cool and can make shit. Well, I think we've already done that, and we'll, we'll get to that. Okay. 12:38 We'll, we'll, we'll talk about the grooming equipment here in a second. But, um, so just kinda to, to lay down an, a, a foundation for what we're doing to prep- prepare the trails, we... 12:48 I more or less have laid out the trail in a way that's gonna end up having really kind of classic mountain bike flow lines, um, you know, with carving corners and things like that, so it's not gonna get boring. 12:58 And I tried to end up doing it in a way where we're gonna have to take out very few trees, and we're gonna have very few stumps to worry about. Uh, yeah. So- There was... We took out very little. Yeah. 13:11 So I mean, all things considered, it was fairly easy to end up, you know, cutting this corridor, but at the same time, you know, there's, there's not a lot of, um, stuff where you need a stump grinder or something else crappy, or you're, you feel like you're, you know, killing the trees off and promoting global warming or something like that. 13:24 You didn't know how to pick the path of least resistance, though, when marking your trail, you son of a gun. No, no, no. There was a few times that there was... 13:30 The leftover from the logging, there was some, some treetops that are out there that they're oak and they'll never rot away if we don't get them to touch the ground. Right, right. 13:38 So I kind of, uh, employed our l- uh, trail crew labor to get rid of some of the, those things and get rid of the eyesores. But- How, how wide is that corridor? It's, it's like between 48 inches and- Mm... 5 feet. Okay. 13:50 So, um, what, the reason why we ended up doing that is, uh, the, this... We ended up applying, and I guess l- we'll get into equipment now. Okay. 13:57 We ended up applying for, um, some grants originally when we built the ski trail, and we got, like, $20,000 to buy grooming equipment for skiing. 14:07 So we got a used, uh, Ski-Doo Skandic four, uh, stroke, uh, snowmobile, basically a utility sled. It's a wide track, I think it's got, like, a 24-inch track or something like that. 14:20 Um- Listen to you, a snowmobiler talking about- Oh, yeah, I'm, yeah, I turned into a snowmobile dork. [laughs] Um, we got, uh, I think it's a 6 or 6 1/2 foot roller. 14:29 Um, and then we also got a, um, I think it's 86-inch Ginsu. Oh, the Ginsu, yeah. Yeah. So, you know, I mean, for y- those of you that are skiers, that's a pretty standard versatile setup, and it's worked great. 14:42 But, um, the good part is, I mean, it's already out at the park. So- Yeah... 14:46 we got this kick-butt utility snowmobile that all we need to do is have something, you know, appropriate grooming equipment-wise for the fat bike trail. Yeah. 14:55 So we had planned on buying a Crothers roller, and, um- Things didn't work out. Yeah, it just, it, it, it, um, you know, timeline-wise, things weren't aligning. Right. But, um, 15:09 we ended up having a local guy who is really good. He's basically got his own little machine shop, and he's a great welder, and he's done a lot of work for us in the past at the trail park. 15:18 And once he ended up seeing some pictures of these rollers, he's like, "I'll do that." Um, had another guy who works at the city who had some of the correct drainage pipe. 15:29 Um, so the, between the combination of those two, we had someone who could build it. Um, the guy that was gonna end up doing the building already had most of the steel and everything to build it. Yeah. 15:40 So he's like, "I can prob- I pretty much have almost everything I need around my house." So, um, he ended up offering to build them up, so we took him up on it. Nice. And he's- So we got a prototype? 15:50 Um, yep, we have a prototype built. We will include some pictures of that in our show notes. 15:55 Um, but it's, it, it was kinda cool 'cause he combined what I would describe as some features of the Crothers roller and then, um, there's a new roller available this year, um, uh, the Wildcat Groomers. Mm-hmm. 16:10 Um, it's another Wisconsin, uh, person who's doing this. Um, some, they, it's, I would describe it as a more high-end version of the Crothers roller. Gotcha. 16:19 They have some pretty neat features that they've included in it. And, you know, the guy, Bob, who's building our roller- Bob... um, he ended up in- you know, including a lot of the same features. 16:30 Um, so far has done a great job. I can't wait to end up getting out there and, you know, laying down some tracks for fat biking. So the plan is to use that utility snowmobile- Yeah... 16:39 hook that up to the new fat bike groomer, and groom those five miles of trail, um, this winter, and then next year- Yeah. So, okay- Can you h- can, can we fit more... I think we can fit more trail in there. 16:54 Well, even before that, what, what the long-term plan is that this is actually gonna become a four-season trail. Oh, yeah. So, you know, we're gonna end up basically developing over the beginning of the year- Right... 17:05 um, some single track out there out of this. Mm-hmm. So it's not just gonna be a fat bike trail. 17:10 Um, and then come the fall, we're hoping to, we, like I said, we'd left aside some open areas, and we're hoping to build somewhere around another four or five miles of trail out there. 17:19 Um- So that'll be, that'll be great. 10 miles of single track, and then accessibility to 20 to 30 miles of more rogue... Legacy, sorry. Yes, Legacy. Legacy snowmobile trails. Yes, Legacy. 17:29 Not, not the rogue, but the Legacy. Yes. So, um, you know, it, it's, it's a pretty cool project. Now- Yeah... 17:37 I guess the, you know, the takeaways that I could offer as advice, um, you know, me writing up the, this trail plan, um, the site plan, it was a pain in the ass. I mean, the thing ended up being- [laughs]... 17:47 like 28 pages. I'll be the first to say. Oh, kitten. Yeah. But, um, doing that has opened up humongous doors. I mean, it, it just added a huge amount of legitimacy. 17:59 So when presenting it to the city council, I mean, they just didn't even question it. I mean, I, I don't know how else to put it. Um- What's the name of this park again? It is the Manistee Non-Motorized Trail Park. 18:10 I am going to go to committee and suggest the KBS Badass Motherfucking- [laughs]... Place to Ride Your Bike and Ski. Yeah. So, you know, that, that helped out a lot initially, but then it's paid dividends since. 18:21 Um, you know, I don't... We, we've been able to apply for somewhere around, like, 50 to $60,000 worth of grants to help out in that area. 18:30 And, um, I don't know exactly what factors have attributed to-Our success with getting those grants, but that trail plan, it certainly didn't hurt. 18:41 Um, so, you know what I mean, things like getting a paved driveway and all these things. I mean, you can drop- Yeah... 10 grand on that without even batting an eye. Yeah. 18:49 So, you know, we ended up-- We had kind of a difficult situation, 'cause we had a completely vacant piece of land. 18:57 Hopefully, for you guys out there in fat bike land, um, you're gonna have an easier situation where you've got some sort of established [chuckles] park that's already got some of this infrastructure. Right. 19:06 But, um, you know, d- having that plan, though, really does help. H- Did you-- How'd you find out how to write up that plan? I mean, I remember seeing the proposed trails and everything. 19:16 Was this just something you just sat down and, and was like, "I'm gonna draw some fricking purple lines through here and call it a trail"? Well, I'll, I'll be perfectly honest. There's a lot of examples out there online. 19:28 Okay. Gotcha. So all I ended up doing was looking at what other people had done- Site plans and, yeah... and be like, "Yeah, all right, so this, these are the basic formats." 19:35 [laughs] You know, it's like, you know, and, and it's anybody who has to write any kind of plan for a municipality or school or anything like that, I mean, these things all f- sorta form the same basic format. Gotcha. 19:47 So, um, we're- Did... Go ahead. I was gonna say, t- if you're used to doing that, it's pretty darn easy, and the good part is, um, like I had written it up for, you know, four-season use. 19:57 So there's a lot of good resources through the IMBA and some of their, um... They have a variety of books that are about trail building. So I was able to use a lot of information from that- Okay... 20:07 within this plan and actually, you know, be able to reference an official, you know, documented, you know, like, a source. 20:14 Well, IMBA came and did a trail building school right here and used that piece of property- It-... that you had already written for- Yeah, that's ex-... with the site plan up. Yep, exa- yeah, yeah. Uh- Yeah. IMBA... 20:22 the IMBA's been, you know, really, really helpful with this because- Gotcha... yeah, we ended up getting the, um, uh, what is it? It's not trail crew. I'm blanking on the name of it. Yeah. But, um- But when they- Um... 20:32 they move around and do their trail class or something like that. Yeah. They basically ended up doing a, a trail building class out there- Got it... 20:37 which was really cool, and um, you know, that helped, uh, train a lot of the locals on how to do it. Now, that said, [laughs] I guess this is another time to chi- to kinda chime in. 20:46 Um, you know, the techniques that they taught us have been really effective at other trail systems, but, um, in the case of the trail park, we're not gonna end up really using the IMBA [laughs] method for building trails at all, um- Just 'cause of the lay of the land? 21:01 Yeah. They- Okay... it happens to be a unique site where it's, it's very flat. It has very good draining soil, and so we don't have to worry about doing all the shovel work and, you know, like- Right... 21:11 you know, bench cut? That, y- that's, y- you don't have any of it out there. Mm, yeah. You know, so you don't have any stuff like that that you gotta worry about. And it just drains like a colander, you know? Oh, yeah. 21:22 So what, what essentially we're doing is f- we're cutting out the corridor, getting all the big stuff out. Yeah. We're gonna mow it with, um, a rough cut mower. Um, that's still something we have to end up doing. 21:34 But we do have a finish mower. Yes. We will talk about that one- Okay... 'cause that's, that's got fat bike-related stuff. Rough cut mower, yep. Yep. Um- Brush hog it. So yeah, basically, yeah, brush hog it. 21:43 Um, get everything as low to the ground as we possibly can. Mm-hmm. And then we're gonna use it this winter. And then come next year, what we're gonna do is we've got our finish cut mower- There you go... 21:51 which is kinda, I mean, basically, think of it as a, a regular, uh, lawnmower-type thing, but wider. Yeah. Um, it's, it's not something you wanna end up going through a bunch of brush and weeds and crap through. 22:02 You know, it's more grass-type stuff. 22:04 But what we're gonna do is we're gonna cut it really short because typically it gets fairly arid in this area, and with the really good draining soil, um, a lot of stuff will die off midsummer. 22:15 And, uh, probably, actually a little bit earlier in summer, what we're planning on doing [laughs] is getting a, a group of motorcyclists we know to go out there and go rip around on the single track. 22:27 [laughs] Which is gonna kinda- I forgot about. Yeah. Yeah, Natural Circus is coming. Yeah. [laughs] But I mean, y- we, we know these guys. 22:35 They're gonna go have a good time for a day, and then- [imitates motorcycle] Yeah. They're not gonna ride again. We don't have to worry about them screwing our trails up down the line. 22:42 And it's, it's, it's, it's gonna be a lot more fun and a lot easier way for us to kinda get that, you know, root, that- That initial- Yeah, that you kinda-... top... 22:52 you kinda have to get through that top layer there, which is always- That fibrous root system. Yeah. It's always kinda punky if you're trying to ride on it. Right. And it's bumpy and nasty. Yeah. 22:59 So it's gonna, it's gonna allow that to get pretty much torn up, and then we'll have to go through and clean it up a little bit. But that's how we're gonna build our single track. Gotcha. 23:05 So, you know, we got some interesting stuff going on that way. Um, so I guess, you know, if, if there's some takeaways, um, I g- an- another couple pieces, and this, okay, this is where I g- Geez, oh, here we go... 23:17 I start to geek out. Yeah. But, um, we- Wake up. Wake up. [laughs] We've done a lot of stuff through our cycling club, which is a registered nonprofit. That opens a ton of doors. Um, 23:29 I also am on one of the, um, City of Manistee committees. It's the Non-Motorized Transportation Committee. [laughs] Who've got the no- Non-Motorized Park going? Yes. Okay. 23:41 Um, and yes, and that would be the committee that ended up creating- Oh, right... the monstrously long name for it. Yeah. Right. 23:46 Um, but, uh, um, that's opened up a lot of doors because it gives me contact with, uh, different city employees and different city services and things like that. So I kinda have a, you know, an inside track on that. 23:58 Um, we can end up using the nonprofit status of the cycling club- Mm-hmm... when we need to. So I kinda have the best of both worlds, um- Right... 24:06 to be able to end up working one organization or the other with this, this park when I need to. Um, so that's been kinda cool. 24:13 That's been really helpful, and if you can do something like that on your local trails, I mean, that's, that's a really good way to go. Yeah, get on committee. [laughs] Yeah, exactly. Yep. 24:22 Yeah, and, you know, and as much as it can really suck when it's a beautiful day and you gotta go to a goddamn meeting- [laughs] Yeah, exactly... um- At 5:30... thir- it, it pays off sometimes. Right. Right. 24:31 So, um- Um, can we go on to the next project? Uh, why, yes, we certainly can, but let's take a break before we do. I need a beer. [upbeat music]Ooh. 24:50 I was craving for the natural resources. It's not even sugarcane I used to see. I could see- Welcome back, campers. We're now in section two, and we're talking about our second trail project. 25:04 Our second tail- trail project is happening out in the Manistee National Forest at a place called Big M, um, which is a, it's a... 25:13 Well, in the summertime it's mountain bike trails, and, uh, in the winter, the cro- the Manistee Cross Country Ski- Council... Council, um, have a groomer out there, and they groom about, um, uh- It's... 25:28 If I remember, it's about-... fourteen? It's about 18 miles of trail. Okay. So yeah, there's, there's like- So they groom that for classic- Yep... 25:36 cross-country ski, um- Yeah, there's like 35 miles of mountain bike trail in the area. Yeah. A smaller, like half of that-ish, about 18 miles, is groomed for cross-country skiing in the winter. Yeah. 25:46 And then you can probably snowshoe on the other stuff that they don't groom. But they don't do it for skating. But it's a, it's a kind of an old school, um, it's an old... Actually, it's an old downhill place. Exactly. 25:57 And, uh, wasn't very... I mean, there was a couple hills there, but they had some really kickass classic, um- Yeah, it's, it's one of... It's a really, really, really good classic skiing place. Really good place to... 26:08 Yeah, exactly. People come from all over. Yeah. So, um, and that's, that's been successfully going on for many years. Yep. Um, you know, it's, it's this really legacy group. Um, 26:19 but, you know, we've been talking to the National Forest Service about getting a fat bike trail out there. 26:25 Um, and a lot, I guess a lot of other people have too because, you know, the, the comment that we've gotten from talking to our, our sort of our representative at the National Forest Service is that they're getting a lot of requests for people to go out and fat bike. 26:37 They really want to see fat biking in the National Forest. Yeah. And, you know, this kind of ties in with trends that we're seeing elsewhere. We'll, we'll talk about Crystal Mountain Resort too, um, and what... 26:49 I mean, basically all the numbers they're seeing is fat biking is way up in popularity, and cross-country- It's all because of Gomez. Ex- exactly. [laughs] Father of fat biking. 26:59 But, um, no, but I mean, like cross-country skiing is basically flat. Sure. So, um, you know, all these groups are, you know, tr- basically trying to meet the needs of users. It's another option to get out and have fun. 27:09 Yeah. 27:09 So I guess, you know, if I had to kind of toss out one piece of advice, um, there's a lot of really good published information about the growth of fat biking, and if you can toss it out to a land manager, that, that really has a lot of currency because it is a very significant, uh, recreational user group that's coming out in the winter, and there's good numbers to back it up. 27:29 So we've been talking to the National Forest about this in our con- and we said, "Hey, there's this trai- there's this mountain bike trail that no one uses during the summer because of how it was cut in, and they don't groom it, uh, for cross-country skiing. 27:41 So can we possibly do some improvements to the trail and get some fat biking out there?" And the original answer was yes. Yeah. They were pretty stoked that we were willing to end up doing that. 27:51 So we got a f- five-mile loop. Yep. And we actually got approval to start grooming that last year, but things kind of fell through. 28:00 Um, our local cross-country ski council, um, they agreed to use their equipment to groom it, and that- They were gonna help us out, and they were gonna groom that loop for us. Yep, and it basically took a dump. 28:10 Um, did not happen. That ski council is just in [laughs] j- just as a lot of, you know, nonprofit, just recreational groups are in need of, of volunteers to help out. Yeah. Um, or- And in, in that case-... 28:23 they're an aging group. Yep. And I think when we were like, "Hey, we're gonna do a fat bike loop out there," um, the groomers were like, "Hey, 28:31 we've got someone else that's interested in running this track truck and grooming." 28:36 And so I think they ha- didn't have a choice but to welcome in a younger generation doing something new, but yet they would benefit from as well. Exactly. But unfortunately, it didn't end up working out. No, it didn't. 28:47 Um- Um, so our, we groomed squad- Intentions were good. Yeah. Yep. It just didn't happen. 28:52 So this year we kind of took, um, you know, basically [laughs] control of the situation, and, um, we ended up doing some local fundraising. 29:01 Um, collected the money, and we ended up buying, um, a used, uh, a Long Track utility sled, and, um, Bob, he's gonna be building us up a, another roller. Right on. 29:14 So- Probably, and this one will be better because he'll, he'll be able to tweak the prototype. Yes. This is gonna be version- Awesome... 1.2. 29:19 It's really cool, though, that just, you know, a group of, of cyclists in our community that slightly have an affiliation with a club, but yet just ride, um, together, and that's more of our affiliation. 29:30 We're, we're able to put, you know, a couple hundred bucks here and a couple hundred bucks there, and we... Ken was able to score a snowmobile for us, so I think that's pretty... 29:38 It says something about the guys that, that ride around here. Yeah. Well, and I think that's the way it is in most areas, you know? Yeah. 29:44 There, there's a lot of people that are super stoked about riding, and they're more than happy to contribute either, you know, through sweat equity or, you know, a tax-deductible donation and, you know, contribute. 29:54 And that's why we should be let back in the wilderness to ride our bikes. [laughs] But anyway. Um, so we've got this fat bike loop. It's about five miles. 30:04 Um, the good part is there's a lot more trail, and we- we're, we're gonna end up seeing what's possible. There's, there's a lot of question marks about what kind of equipment is needed. Um, it's, it's a lot more narrow. 30:16 You know, um, if you look at the general trends in fat bike grooming, the, the Rokon, the, the two-wheel drive motorcycles are very popular on tighter single track. 30:26 So in the long run, we're most likely going to, um, apply for more grant funding- But what we're gonna need is-... get another Rokon... yeah, we're gonna need to do that. 30:34 So that's, that's a question I had, you know, back in the last section is, is, you know, where... Is this grant money accessible? 30:41 I mean, is there a lot of money out there that you just gotta go kind of hunt, and if you're doing the right thing, they'll hook you up? Um, I can't speak for every area. 30:49 I can only really speak for our area, and I'm, I'm guessing this appliesA lot more places. But in, you know, in the case of Michigan, I mean, it's, 30:58 it's, it's, [laughs] it's one of the- We're like the skinniest state in the world. Yeah, yeah. We're, we're definitely, you know, on the, the one of the fatter states out there. 31:05 Out of all 52 states, I think, you know, we're right up there. Yeah. Yeah, us and Mississippi, but- Right... Mississippi doesn't have a lot of fat biking. Right. So, um, but, uh, so we got a fat state. 31:16 Almost all of these different community foundations and these other charitable organizations have some place in their mission statement saying something about, like, health and wellness. So that's a really big thing. 31:28 The other big thing is, um, you know, like, trying to get kids out more or trying, you know, healthy, active communities and, you know, there's, there's all these types of things where almost all of the community foundations and different charitable groups have something written in there about that, and this is a great example. 31:48 You know, you've got- Yep... this, you know, you, basic- all the numbers apply very well when it comes to writing a grant for this stuff. 31:55 You know, you, you've got these, these, uh, growing d- you know, like, legions of fat bikers. Right. 32:02 Um, you've got all these industry trends that are showing that's probably one of the fastest winter activities, um- Mm-hmm... you know, as far as growth goes. 32:10 Um, you know, it, you, you can have a very sustainable model if you've got volunteer labor. Um, volunteer labor is huge. Right. 32:18 Um, I don't remember what, something like 26 bucks an hour, you know, that you can, you can kind of put a monetary value on that. 32:25 So for instance, at the trail park, you know, we're 200, 300 hours into our efforts, so, you know, multiply that by 25, 26 bucks an hour and- Yeah... you know, that's, that is a sizable chunk of, um, volunteer- Sure... 32:42 sort of contribution that you can flaunt out there in a, a grant application. 32:46 So- So on my application, I can say, um, uh, "I'm Jimmy from the Hey Get Off Your Ass and Do Something Council, and, uh, I wanna improve the status of [laughs] I wanna improve the status of the local citizen." 32:59 They'll be like, "Well, that's a good idea. Here's $10,000." That's exactly it. Yeah. I mean, it's- Nice... that, that, that really is kind of the gist of it. 33:07 And I mean, um, they definitely take some effort to write the grants, but compared to what you get, phew, it's kind of a no-brainer. Right on. 33:15 Um, there's just a lot of really good sources for, of revenue like that if you kinda know where to look. Gotcha. So, um, 33:23 you know, that's one of the things in the long term that we're most likely going to use to get a ROCON. Um, I'm hoping, you know. Hint, hint, hint. Yeah, exactly. 33:30 I gotta, I gotta start, uh, sharpening my pencil to figure out how I'm gonna write that grant. Right. Um, but, uh, you know, the long term is we've got this, um, it... Locally, it's referred to as the outer loop. 33:41 Um, the Big M area is, like, a gigantic, uh, glacial poop. It's this mound in the middle of a bunch of other flat stuff. Yeah, it's a turd. Yeah. 33:50 And the ski trails kinda cover the, the, the inner portion of the turd, and th- we have the outer loop, which goes up and down the sides of the turd. And- How much elevation is there? Probably 400 feet, 500 feet? 34:03 It's, I think it's 350 from, you know, bottom to top. From bottom to top, okay. Yep. So, um, the outer loop winds, you know, from, you know, sort of the flats up to the hills and down- Yep... 34:12 again and back and forth and, you know, going all the way around. It's perfect for fat biking. It is. There's a- It's-... there's a lot of flats, rolling, and then there's some climbs that are doable. Yeah. 34:21 And, you know, at 15 miles, I mean, it would be a really, really challenging ride- [laughs] Yeah... in full-on winter conditions. Right. 34:26 I mean, for instance, uh, Scott Quirin and I were out there riding a couple weeks ago. We had a really good dump of snow. Out there- Yeah... they got... 34:34 You know, and that's, that's right in the snow belt, so this is another kinda big thing. Mm-hmm. They get more snow than, you know, almost any other area in the state. Well, l- the Lower Peninsula, I should say. 34:44 Uh, UP's a whole different thing. Um, but, uh, they ended up getting, like, 12 to 14 inches of snow out there, um, a couple weeks ago. Yeah. 34:52 And Scott and I were out there, you know, basically doing a little bit of testing with the, the Vee Tire 2XLs and stuff like that, and it took us a solid three hours to ride 15 miles. 35:04 Um, I mean, it's, and it was, it was a hard ride. But luckily, there's, there's snowmobile trails that go through, and there's, there's other ways that we could groom around that stuff. 35:12 As m- uh, as much as I'd like to be able to use those snowmobile trails, if we're gonna do that, then we might as well find our own routes and- Oh, yeah. Yeah. It, it, that's, that's exactly it. 35:21 I don't wanna make it sound like this is some slog that, you know, and you have to be a top-end rider to do. There's a lot of good options that way, and that's, that's the beauty of it. It's, it's a... 35:30 It can be, you know, a true on wilderness adventure, like, you know, test you physically, you know, or it can be just a great day out on the bike. Right. 35:38 And I think that it's more likely to happen because of the relationship that we've built with- And-... the National Forest Service. 35:45 And, you know, I guess that's one of the other big kinda takeaways, if I could- They see our-... sort of preach-... volunteer hours. They know who's taking care of the trail. Yeah. 35:52 Yeah, making sure you're good about recording your volunteer hours and reporting them. Another reason why we should be back in the wilderness. But anyway. 35:58 [laughs] But, uh, you know, a lot of this is about building relationships with our land managers and things like that. 36:04 So, um, you know, the, the, we're kinda taking our steps, and, you know, we're, you know, d- we're demonstrating that we can end up getting out there, and we can groom this consistently and do a good job. Right. 36:14 And that we're gonna be good stewards of their land and blah, blah, blah, all that other kinda stuff. 36:18 And, um, you know, it's, it's, basically everything looks really good for us to be able to expand all this greatly- Yeah... in the future, as long as we don't screw this up in the short term. Right. 36:28 We had to do a little bit of trail work. Oh, yeah. Yep. You know, um, to get it going, but it's all set and flagged and everything. 36:34 So, um, we've got a couple other miscellaneous things that I think we need to touch on before we, before you're totally, completely asleep, um, and we'll get right back to those in just a m- momento. 36:47 And did not leave one petal of roses. 36:52 My life[upbeat music] 37:11 Welcome back, campers. Um, we got kind of the, the miscellaneous trail situations we got going on around here- Right... which might be applicable to you guys out there. 37:20 Um, so one of the other trail systems we've got is, uh, the Ludington School Forest trails. Um- About a half hour south. Yep. 37:29 Um, this is, uh, a situation where the cycling club ended up approaching the local school system in Michigan. Um, local school systems got school forests back God knows when. Yep. And in the case- A big plot of land. 37:44 Yep, exactly. And it was kind of given to them so that they could build a school on it or do whatever. And in the case of Ludington, um, they've got two pretty cool chunks of property- Right... 37:55 that are right by the city. Mm-hmm. Um, they had a lot of, um, you know, like, hiking trails and things like that on them, but they didn't really have any, like, good mountain bike trail on them. 38:06 So several years ago, cycling club ended up approaching first, uh, the school district. They got the okay from the school district to build trails. 38:15 Um, also have approached the city, got the okay from them, um, and ended up building a little more than five miles of trail, which are really fun. Super fun, yeah. Yeah, and, and highly used by the public and everything. 38:27 It's, it was been, it's been a really successful project. They have a disc golf course out there too for all you disc golfers out there- [laughs]... because disc golfing and mountain biking kind of go together. Yes. 38:35 Um, so, uh- [laughs] Um, so, uh, luckily one of the people that's really, um, big into our cycling club has a, a big history in skiing. 38:48 He used to end up being the head groomer guy for one of the downhill areas in Michigan. He's the fastest man on snow. Yeah. Yeah, yes, he is. He is. Yeah. Yeah. I, I had forgotten about that. Yes. Yeah. 38:58 We're, we're referring to, uh, the fatathlon at the Vasa. Fatathlon, yes. Yeah, where it, it was a combination of, um, a skate ski on the Vasa Trail and then, uh, fat biking, and he won it. Yes. He's a badass. 39:12 He is a BAMFer. Yeah. So, um, he has a lot of grooming experience, and he had some local trails which he groomed for cross-country skiing. So a lot- Shout out to Dave. Hey, Dave. Yep, Dave, you rule. 39:23 Um, he had a bunch of equipment that he could end up then using to also groom the fat bike loop, um, in the Ludington School Forest. So now you've got how many people? 39:32 Uh, you know, you've got a lot more people down there, two bike shops in town. Yep. You know. Yep. People are buying fat bikes. Are those f- are those hard to ride? 39:42 [laughs] I know that none of you have ever heard that question, but are those hard to r- and then they get on and they're like, "Oh my gosh, I'm gonna go get a fat bike." 39:49 Well, in that, in the case of- And now I can go to the school forest and I can ride my bike there. 39:52 Well, and s- you know, by building these relationships with the city and, you know, the school system and stuff like that, we've also ended up, um, winning a lot of favor with, uh, the local state park in Ludington. 40:03 Right. Um, they recently just ended up authorizing fat bike usage on the beach. Cool. So- Nice... 40:09 you know, there, there's been, you know, th- this is one of those snowball kind of things where you start playing the political game and, you know, it gets you someplace. Nice. So, um, you know, th- this kind of ties in. 40:20 This basically adds in the fourth season for anybody, you know, Joe Blow walks into a shop and is like, "Man, those are some big tires. What can I do with that?" Well, you can ride it on the beach. 40:30 You can ride it on these groomed trails. You can do all this cool stuff. Yeah. And it- Those kind of guys don't wanna go out in, you know, when it's bitter cold and there, and there's no trail on them. Ex- exact- yeah. 40:42 I mean- You know, they need that, and that's just gonna, that's just gonna pfft, that's gonna make fat biking even better and better. Yeah. 40:47 So, you know, some really good stuff going on that way, both for the local economy and also just, you know, making, you know, fat biking really accessible to Joe Blow. Yep. 40:57 So that's, that's a really, you know- That's good... cool asset also. That's local, local. And then a half hour north, Crystal Mountain. Yep. 41:04 Um, Crystal Mountain's really kind of, uh, dove headfirst in the whole fat bike thing. 41:09 So maybe you're, you know, maybe you're like us and your local ski resort i- is going, is opening up another activity for people to do. Yeah. 41:17 And, and, you know, in the case of Crystal Mountain, um, it's, it's known predominantly as a downhill ski area, but they've had 30 to 40K of, uh, cross-country ski trail for many, many, many years. 41:29 And, um, I was talking to a guy who's kind of heading up their, the bike world- Mm... uh, not that long ago, and, and he was like, "You know, we're just looking at the numbers. Cross-country skiing, totally flat. 41:41 You know, all our numbers for the fat biking are just like up, up, up, up, up, up, up." And- You gotta respond to that. Yeah. And, uh, you know, they've had like five miles of groomed trail out there for a while. 41:52 Um, but this year they're doing a big expansion, and they're gonna bump up from, they're not even gonna use the five miles of trail that they had previously used. Oh, really? 42:00 They're gonna [laughs] they've kind of added on some new cross-country ski trail so that they can take away some cross-country ski trail and give it to the fat bikers. Oh, cool. 42:10 So there's gonna be nine miles of groomed fat bike trail. Wow. Um, they've got some existing single track, which is kind of neat. 42:18 Um, for those of you that might know the Crystal area, um, there's, there's a bunch of trails that kind of rip off of, uh, uh, Pineapple. Yeah. Um, there's, there's Crushed Pineapple and- Right, right, right... 42:29 I don't know all the other ones, but, um, th- I guess that's all gonna end up getting groomed. Um, there's gonna be a section of, uh, the existing ski trail, Aspen, that kind of goes along County Line Road. 42:41 Um, uh, that's gonna all become- Oh, cool... uh, fat bike. 42:45 And then they've teamed up with the DNR and, um, there's a sort of a, a state-owned area just, uh, to the west of Crystal Mountain, which is called the Betsy River Pathway, and they're gonna end up groomingUm, some sort of loop out there. 43:02 I don't know the specifics on it yet, but, I mean, it-- there, there's a lot of cool stuff that people can do. State land is gonna be used for fat biking. That's- Exactly... that's awesome, yeah. Yeah. Great. 43:11 So there's g- there's gonna be a sizable network. And not, not only have they increased the volume of trail that's available, but they're also sorta doubling down because- Mm... 43:21 there's, there's really been one guy who's groomed fat bike trail, and he's been doing a lot of other things. He wears a lot of hats. Um, and it's not just gonna end up being Chris this year. Oh, okay. 43:32 Um, it's gonna end up-- I think they're g- I think he said that there's gonna end up being three people that can- Oh, good. Good... sort of be on the groomer list or whatever. It was kinda hit and miss, you know? Yeah. 43:40 Before. And th- and I guess that's the thing, you know. It's like a lot of times I ended up going up there and the grooming was eh, because, you know, he's a busy guy and, you know- Yeah... 43:47 there'd been a snowstorm [laughs] and, you know, it, it, he hadn't gotten out for a couple days. Right. Um, so having a lot more consistent grooming is gonna help, you know, the quality of the experience for people. 43:57 Nice. 43:57 And there, you know, there's a lot of people that, you know, go up to Crystal and wanna have a winter experience, and this is gonna be a cool way to, you know, sort of turn them on to fat biking as, you know, yet another vehicle to have fun on snow. 44:08 Right on. No, that's super cool that they're, they're doing that. And, and [laughs] what we really need is fat bikes to be in the wilderness. 44:17 [laughs] We've got this section-- I, I don't wanna reveal anything, but we've got this section we call Mordor- [laughs]... 'cause we can't go there. It's just too dangerous. 44:25 [laughs] Do-- 'cause you don't wanna, you don't wanna go there. We, we've got tons of stuff to ride. We don't have to touch the wilderness. Oh, that's so nice, though, to be able to do those dunes. Anyway, uh. 44:34 [laughs] Uh, all four people probably don't We're, we're working on some other dune areas that are not- Right, right, right... wilderness area. Yeah. We'll get there at some point. 44:42 Sleeping Bear is trying to put in some trails, you know? Yep, yep, we got some good stuff going on at Sleeping Bear. Yeah. I'm just gonna say Silver Lake, you know. Right, right, right, right. 44:48 That's, that's-- we're gonna work on that. We got a new land manager to work with. We gotta see what kind of relationships we can build, so. 44:55 So once you're in Wisconsin doing their f- 40 miles of single trail, you can come and just bounce down the west coast of Michigan and, and, and get some groomed riding in too. Yeah. 45:04 So, you know, when you add it all up, I don't know what the exact number's gonna be, but we're somewhere around, you know, 30, 35 miles of groomed trail in the area. In the area. Um- Yep... 45:14 you know, it's, it's dispersed between several different spots. And then, uh, you know, if you can hook up with some of the locals here- Yeah... um, you're, you're always more than welcome. 45:23 We have tons and tons and tons and tons and tons of unofficial stuff that we would love to end up showing off and, you know, showing people a good time. Right on. 45:32 'Cause we, we got some good really, really, really top-quality stuff. So probably after the new year, we'll come back with some type of technical, more technical podcast about fa- fat backing, fa-fat biking. But, uh, 45:46 trail building was, was at the forefront of this one. Yeah. It's, it's kinda sucked down a lot of time recently and kinda taken away from our, our, our fatbike.com, uh, contributions for a little while. 45:58 But it's been, it's been for the good of the fat bike. Right on. Right on. And we hope you get to relax over, over these holidays and maybe, uh, have a cup of cheer. Yes. Or a few. Or a few, exactly. 46:08 So, um, happy New Year, and, uh, hopefully this Fat Camp thing can continue on for a couple more months at least before, you know, Sven and Gomez pull the plug on us. 46:18 But, uh- Yeah, they get too bored and fall asleep at the board, you know? [laughs] Exactly, exactly. It's the NPR of fatbike.com. Yeah. So thank you so much, campers, and Happy New Year's. Indeed. 46:27 [upbeat music] Thanks for listening. 46:41 The music we are using on today's show is Trevor Flowers and Ike Kama and their song "Homeland" from the Free Music Archive. You can find all our shows at fatbike.com, including notes for today's show. 46:54 A new location, that's all it would have been. We went to school and learned all of their wickedness. Makes you realize establishment is within. Ooh. 47:12 Ooh. Ooh. Ooh.
