Transcript 0:00 Hey, everybody. It is Adam Blake back with another new PNEU podcast. 0:07 Uh, and today I get to chat, uh, with a good friend of mine, uh, that actually helped start and grow Gravel City with me, as one of my key, my key rep, uh, of all my brands. 0:21 Uh, he reps for Quality Bicycle Products, but has spent some time in the industry with other brands. 0:28 Uh, he is also a level three certified mountain bike coach, and the owner, maybe he has to clarify that to me, but owner of Roots Mountain Bike, which is a coaching program. Um, Jay Thomas, one heck of a guy. 0:43 Jay, how are you, my brother? Oh, man, I'm stoked to be here. It's good to see your face- Dude, it's so good to talk to you... on video. [laughs] Yeah, I know. Yeah. It's been good to see you- Yeah... 0:52 because, uh, as people kind of have caught up last, uh, show, I'm not in the bike world as much anymore. Um, so I don't get to cross paths with you as regularly. Yeah. Uh, but 1:05 things that people have seen on fatbike.com lately is a mountain bike festival at Levistown Mounds Labor Day weekend. Uh, the Fat Tire Festival up there. Oh, yeah. 1:14 And so I got to thinking about, you know, what we're wanting to do and getting people on mountain bikes, and my wife, uh, Jessica, took one of your beginner skills clinics in Iowa City- That's right... two years ago. 1:27 Uh, and really has... 1:29 I, I think it added a lot of foundation, um, and understanding of what she was trying to accomplish on the mountain bike, things that maybe me as a more avid mountain biker forget the details and maybe forget to mention things, because it's become more intuitive. 1:46 Sure. Um, Jay, where... You, before, were... Uh, you're still a Quality Bicycle, uh, Products rep. Um- Yes, yes... but before that you were at Specialized at least. Is that correct? Yeah, yeah. Where, where all... 2:00 How'd you get all wrapped up in all this? Man, uh, uh, you know, it started with retail. I was in bike shops and ski shops, uh, growing up in, uh... 2:10 Well, I grew up in Maine, but went to college in New Hampshire in the White Mountains, and I was, uh, surrounded by little ski areas and ski shops. 2:18 And if you work in a ski shop in New England, uh, you are also the bike guy in summer. And then, [laughs] uh, it just started. 2:25 I ended up, uh, helping out, uh, with a ski demo, which is very similar to bike demos that you've, we've all known in the industry. 2:33 Um, and, uh, got a job with Atomic Skis and was on the road with those guys as a rep for a couple years, and then went to, um, uh, moved on to Specialized for six or seven years as a demo driver on the East Coast. 2:47 And then, uh, moved into a sales role h- here where I am now, which is in, uh, Eureka, Missouri, just outside of St. Louis. And then started with PE, I guess, five years ago. A little over five years ago now. 2:59 Yeah, 'cause you... I- if I recall, either you had just come on to Q when we were starting Gravel City, or we had started Gravel City and you came on pretty quick. 'Cause I'll be honest, I don't really remember 3:13 a re- [laughs] there was no reps before Jay. You know, I don't really remember- It was rep city... a rep that I dealt with too much before you. 3:21 Uh, maybe some other inside people, but you were the first one that I remember regularly being in our shop. Yeah. I think we can maybe, uh, thank Rob Versteeg for that one. 3:31 Um- Always thank Rob Versteeg for so many things He was, he was totally involved in that, uh, at the time, 'cause I remember... 'cause I think it was pretty much my 3:40 kind of, uh, learning the ways of Q and at the same time, like, how are, how are you gonna... You're gonna build what kind of shop? 3:47 How are we doing [laughs] Like, how are we gonna, you know, have what you need and all that? And, uh, that was... But it was fascinating too, 'cause it, we saw it grow so quickly, and, uh, it's exciting. Yeah. 3:59 I think what was nice, 'cause you raced skis, right? You did downhill ski race, didn't you? No, my wife did- Your wife... downhill. That's who it was. Yeah. [laughs] Yes. That's... I met her at a, at a ski resort. 4:10 Um- Right. No... but no, I never got into the racing side. I was always kind of into- Okay... 4:14 jumping off of stuff and- I think the point will stand that you coming from the ski and, and us kind of having some varied inputs, um, in such a conceptual, uh, at the time almost untapped thing, you know, at least not as... 4:31 That shop's, uh, mantra was a little more focused than most things. We were learning. I think that's why you and I clicked is 'cause, like, yo, I don't, I don't have the answers either. I don't know what we're doing. 4:42 [laughs] Well, and that's where I learned everything I know about gravel. [laughs] You know? Right, right. Before that, it, you were the only account that I, I was working with that was, that that was the... 4:54 Everything else was extra. Right. Uh, so you were forced to learn quick. [laughs] Yeah. It was, it was good, and I think that the learning that we do there, you know, we were selling gravel bikes in Emporia, right? 5:09 But there was a few mountain bikes that started to move there, and I think there's even a few more now that I'm not there that are moving. But I, I'd like to start with something that I think is a misconception. 5:22 You know, you can be pretty fit and get on a road bike and be a pretty good road rider. Maybe not racer, 'cause there's some tactics. Mm-hmm. 5:30 You can be pretty fit from running or swimming or skiing, all these alternative things, and be a pretty good gravel racer or rider. There is no substitute for time on a mountain bike, in my opinion. I think that- Yeah... 5:44 um, things like what you do help accelerate the foundation, but fitness is almost a disadvantage at the beginning until you learn how to ride a bike. Um- Yeah, that's- You know what I mean?... 5:55 interesting that you put it that way, but I think that sometimes fitness gives you confidence that doesn't relate to skills. [laughs] Correct, and a skill set in mountain is a specific skill set.Yeah. 6:08 It, it is and, and like you talked about Jessica having, you know, more success with it and enjoying it more, that's kind of a testament to that you- not everybody gets the same thing out of a skills clinic. 6:19 Some people are just there to learn, "How do I get my front wheel off the ground? How do I do a bunny hop?" Or whatever. Other folks just find it, 6:29 getting all this repetition, their body just starts to go into this certain position all the time, which makes, gives them confidence. 6:36 You know, I can't, I can't give you confidence, but I can put you in the best position so that you'll have success repetitively and then, then you can kind of move on to other things. Right. 6:47 Breed some familiarity on what works instead of guessing at what works so that you become to just respond to the million inputs that you're getting at any moment riding a mountain bike. Sure. 7:01 Um, so how long have you had Roots? 7:03 And we'll get in, um, we'll get into like how the classes work and how even certification for you or for other people that might wanna become certified to coach mountain bike, uh, skills. Yeah. 7:16 But how long have you had Roots for? I started Roots in 2014. Okay. So- So six and a, six and a half, seven years let's say. Yep. Yeah. 7:26 I took a class with the, the Bicycle Instructor Certification Program, who's, is the company that I teach for now, um, as well. 7:34 I took their, back when they did a level one and level two course, there are three different steps of what they offer for courses for coaches. Most people, level one obviously is the most popular. 7:45 Level two is for people that are definitely looking to have some kind of a business, and level three is definitely, it's beyond having a business. 7:54 You're, you're maybe helping at, at a higher level with, um, different kinds of athletes and things like that. All right. Sure. Um, so I took, I took a two or five, it was in Bentonville, Arkansas, and, uh, 8:09 it was just... I, you know, I, I don't know what it was about it, but there was just something that kind of clicked for me. Um, I have a teaching degree. 8:17 I went to school to be a, a phys ed teacher, and I never did anything with that degree. Like I went right into retail sales management right out of college. Um, so I forgot. 8:27 I'm like, "Oh, wow, I'm kind of a good teacher. I, you know, I can build on this." And once you have some kind of a backing, you know, some kind of a curriculum to follow, it's so much easier, you know? There, there... 8:39 Since I started in 2014, man, I don't think there was anybody teaching mountain bike clinics when I started. Right. Um, now they're everywhere. Um- Right... 8:47 it's starting to become a little bit more like the ski industry culture where even as a, as a skier who's skied for, I don't know, goodness, I hate to say it, but five years now [laughs] 9:01 , um, there's still a reason for me to take a lesson if I go to, you know, if I'm- Sure... in Colorado, like maybe I wanna take a, a bump lesson tree, you know, a course of some sort. 9:11 That, ski culture, that's always been there. There's always been a ski school and ski lessons. 9:15 But the mountain bike, you know, the mountain bike trails and parks are progressing so fast that the skill set goes from, [laughs] uh, I can do 20 miles grinding on cross-country to, 9:28 you know, I got an eight-foot wide highway just full of tabletops. That is a different experience. [laughs] So it might be going fast. So that's, that's kind of what's helped with the lesson side of things. 9:39 Therein lies... So, so two things that I, I wanna point out or build on there is, A, I think kind of what I alluded to, I also like educating people on things and training people and this and that, but, um, 9:56 there are certain things that you have to be in the teaching mode to be aware of the little details that really make it from adequate to reliable all the time and, like, really superior. 10:14 And one thing, you know, I, I'll admit when I ride with Jessica, I'm sure there's a disservice because I'm not giving her the full story necessarily that's going through my... 10:25 You know, it may be like, "Well, if you lean your hips back," or something, but I'm not also saying all these other things that I'm just doing now, you know? Yeah. 10:33 Um, and I think that being a good teacher, like you said, and having a curriculum is what changed 10:42 for her, and I'm interpreting a little bit, going to one of the skills clinics for even just a couple hours versus r- even just riding with good... 10:49 You know, the old saying was just like, "Ride with people that are better than you." You know? And you're like- Yeah... picking things. Partially that's true, partially. Yeah. 10:57 [laughs] But it's foundational awareness- Sure... uh, I think where that's where it comes in. 11:02 But here's the thing that I wanna kind of just wrap with you on, because it's something that I'm very aware of as I have a new bike on order, a Revel, a full suspension bike, you know, and it's a 140, 130 bike. 11:17 Uh, it's the Rascal. And the fact that I'm owning a 140, 130 bike- Yes. Yeah [laughs]... in Iowa blows my mind. [laughs] Yeah. 11:29 You know what the length of travel on the first mountain bike I had on the fork only, 'cause it was a hardtail, was? Uh. 40. 40? 40. Elastomer driven RST 40 millimeter shock. Oof. 11:43 I then upgraded to a 63 millimeter Marzocchi. Whoa. Double Air Z1, which was BA. But anyways. Uh, I just bought a Marzocchi fork. [laughs] Yeah. It's great. So here's what my question is. 11:56 I think the foundational skills are basically the same as far as like weight proportion or, you know, uh, like fore and aft on weight and, and body height and pedal placement and, and things of that nature. 12:12 But-Not only are parks getting way more progressive, but bikes are, in seven years mountain bikes are not even close to what we had seven years ago- Yeah... 12:25 as far as how they ride, width of bars, uh, lengths of stems, travel, tire size, all these things that impact the handling of the bike. Mm-hmm. How do you have to... 12:38 Obviously, you ride, you race Enduro Series stuff, correct still? Yeah. Or is it Enduro that you race? Uh, my background was downhill and dual slalom when I was a bit younger, um- Dual slalom. 12:50 But you still do some Enduro now, right? Yeah, a little bit here and there. I try to, I try to spend my weekends, uh, coaching now. 12:57 And you have other coaches, though, that are, you have other coaches- Yeah, I have, I have... that are very successful Enduro riders. I do. 13:03 What have you liked- I have four women on my team, uh, two of whom just finished, they've each done two or three of the big mountain Enduros out in, uh, Big Sky, and Winter Park, and here at Iron Mountain, the new, uh, bike park, uh, just outside of St. 13:15 Louis, which is crazy to say that. But- Yeah... um, so yeah, that is definitely our background. So it, w- we're, the nice part is we're kind of already riding those bikes. Right. 13:26 You know, when I moved, when I moved from New Hampshire to St. Louis in, uh, 2011, I was on a 150 travel front and rear [laughs] you know, 26-inch wheel specialized- Hey... Enduro, and people laughed at me, you know? 13:42 [laughs] Right. And, uh, now everybody on our trails is riding a 140, 150-ish bike. You know, and wheel size is still kinda all over the place, but I think that and man, dropper posts, like, that- Yeah, right. 13:59 [laughs] As much as we all are, hate our dropper posts, they are, it's changed so much. But- How about flat pedals that people can stay on? Oh, I know. That's a b- yeah. You know, like, that's what I'm getting into. 14:09 A lot of people showing up at our clinics with flat pedals now. It's crazy. You know how I go. It's down the rabbit hole with me, you know? 14:16 And it's like, look, how would you- [laughs] If you started training people at a time when, like, what would a full susp- I mean, 180 now, and like a 120 bike would've been, like, a pretty good sized bike at- Yeah... 14:32 seven years ago. I mean, not- Yeah... crazy big, but pretty good sized. Yeah. You know? Yeah, that's the thing. 14:40 It just, like, blows my mind because of the progression of the industry constantly that is m- making these things, um, and these trails that are also, it's both growing, you know? It's like- Yeah... 14:53 they're both pushing each other. You get these bikes that can be ridden everywhere and people go big, well, then trails get big because people wanna go big. Right. Well, what hap- [laughs] you know, then- Yeah. 15:05 I- so I'm re- I'm really, yeah, it's interesting to me how, like, does your curriculum change yearly, or does the, like, note liners in the curriculum change yearly? You get what I'm saying? Uh, well, 15:22 I would say, I mean, the curriculum, the base curriculum's essentially the same, but I would say every year we're better. 15:30 You know, we, we do this, we do a handful or, or a few events that we do every year, and we can't... And usually half the people that come to those have went the previous year, so we can't be doing the same stuff. 15:43 Um, so I coach my coaches as well as what, they have to have a minimum of a level two, BICP level two certification, which is a certain amount of hours and training, and certification courses, and stuff like that. 15:58 Um, but we also do team camps where we don't just ride, we j- we go and we talk about how we're teaching and, you know, this is how we used to teach this, but man, I saw it done this way, and this really helped out. 16:09 And l- it's, which is kind of surprising, 'cause we are, we are, like I said, we're sticking to that curriculum, but you've also got YouTube, which brings in another, uh, realm where w- we're, we're finding that we watch YouTube, and we actually get stuff from that that we can occasionally work into stuff. 16:29 Like, you'll see, uh, and a lot of times it's, like, a pro rider or whatever and, um, they do their YouTube channel, and people generally probably follow them because it's, uh, who they are, right? Right. 16:41 And their riding background. But sometimes there's, there's content that you can, you can help, we can help our riders get better. 16:49 So if it means we've got to go off the curriculum a little bit, 'cause we're all riding, we're all different people, we all ride different bi- different bike fits, different things work for different people. So 17:00 as much as YouTube drives me crazy, [laughs] there is also, uh, some benefit to that. Um, so. For sure. 17:09 But the curriculum has to, has to kind of stay the same in that, like, I want your, I want Jessica to go to a, you know, if she ever goes to, like, a ladies all ride clinic, those massive, big women's events- Right... 17:21 to hear the same verbiage, you know? 'Cause that's gonna help her, versus if she goes and works with another coach that is just throwing out whatever, um, terminology they want. 17:33 W- and they might be good teachers, but if there's no, there's nothing to compare it to, it's just gonna confuse the, the client. Right. The- Right, right, right. 17:41 Having to wade through jargon versus a contin- you know, a continual message. Yeah. But what about in the case of, like, droppers? 17:50 Like, at what point does roots have to, you know, I mean, I would expect that even within the last three years it went from, like, "Hey, some of you have droppers, and that's cool. 18:04 This is what they're for," to like, "Okay, this is how and why you have a dropper," 'cause 98% of you have droppers now. Like, you can buy a $700 mountain bike that comes equipped with a dropper.Yep. 18:17 And, and that's crazy. That, but that changes the whole thing to me. Like- It does, it's a whole-... not the whole thing, but it is a whole talking point. You know what I mean? Yeah. Oh, yeah, for sure. I think, uh, 18:31 it just, like, for instance, I won't dig too deep into this, 'cause we'll be talking about dropper posts for hours. [laughs] But when I started teaching, the, the way I was taught was everything's taught on flat pedals. 18:43 No matter what you ride, you teach on flat pedals, all the clients are in flat pedals, and everybody lowers their seat. It wasn't drop your seat post [laughs] it was literally lower your seat. 18:54 Like I have a tool if you don't have one, cut it- Right... a bit. 18:57 And now, uh, I would say 75% of the people show up, and you look, and they've got, either they've got a dropper post so they're understandable about dropping the post, but you look, you can tell by people's shoes. 19:09 Like if, if they went out, you know, they read the description of the clinic and then they ran out and bought a set of 510s and a pair, and a, you know, a set of Deity pedals or whatever, [laughs] and they show up and they're brand new at the clinic, and I'm thinking, "Oh, man, I need to find some shin pads for these folks." 19:26 Yeah. But you've got the other folks that they've got a worn out pair of shoes. You know, their shins are a little banged up, and you can tell that they never even went to SPD's. 19:35 But when I was, man, when I was in my 20s and I was really into first kind of getting into mountain biking, first thing I wanted to do was slap SPD's on my bike. I couldn't wait to... I had 50 bucks in college to buy. 19:47 Dude, it was awesome. Right? And now I c- I can't imagine clipping back in. Like- That's why I can't imagine riding flats, 'cause I never- Yeah... 19:58 broke away, and I just, I just do things with my feet attached to the pedals that I don't intuitively do when I'm on- Yeah... flat pedals, regardless of how much better. I mean, we're not riding like- Right... 20:12 Shark, what was the Shark... Triple Traps, Odyssey Triple Traps, and like Shark Jaws and Bear Traps and all. Like, those were meat cleavers for the shins. They were terrible. 20:21 The ones now are, but you don't slip off of, you know, like EC, a quality brand, The Thump when they have, if those are- Yeah... 20:29 running, those have a double concave that your foot really settles in, and you can ride like with new tacky shoes. I think that's the other big part. Oh, my God, the shoes. 20:38 And, and okay, again, another thing that has really shifted in mountain biking that I feel like in a mountain bike clinic, there's probably preconceived notions of slipping off pedals or this or that, or, you know, 20:55 uh, and how often do you have to be like the... Where, where is your role? 21:02 You know, do you wanna, do you try to be on the front side of that because you have an intel of where the b- the industry is going because you are also a rep? Do you try to be in the middle of that as to- Uh-... 21:13 accommodate the most, you know? I guess I, I guess I don't understand. In terms of, uh, from a coaching standpoint- Um-... or from a- From a adding it- Just kind of-... as a talking point in a clinic standpoint. 21:28 Like, not just a mention, to where like- Well-... you're talking about it. Yeah, right. Um, well, it real- I mean, I- Full suspension versus hardtail. How about something like that, too? 21:40 You know, the proliferation of full suspension- Yeah... now becoming way more accessible to way more people and way more pedallable everywhere. 21:49 You know, when do you, when, as Roots, do you, um, make it a, a cognizant point, I guess, to like talk about how a full suspension bike is ridden versus a hardtail, because it's not the same? 22:01 Oh, I'd say probably every clinic that comes up. Right off the... I mean just immediately. Yeah, just because you'll notice, we do so much stuff that is based in your feet, so the movement starts in your feet. 22:13 That's why you, as a clipless pedal rider, like I can't even imagine picking my rear wheel up off the ground, you know, [laughs] with flat pedals. 22:22 But if you're s- if you're stomping down into the pedals and letting the bike rebound, it's already coming up. Right. You're just kind of pulling it a little bit with your feet. Um, so, yeah, I don't... 22:34 It definitely comes up a lot and, but it generally it's, "Hey, if you notice the per..." 22:39 What I'll say is, "If you notice the person in front of you looks a certain way or their movement looks a certain way, well, that's 'cause they're on this style of bike. 22:47 This bike is gonna give you literally a benefit over this style of bike." Um, it's pretty rare when I tell somebody that they should have, uh, a hardtail over a full suspension bike. 22:59 I think the designs have just gotten so good that there are, there are times when you'd want a hardtail, but there's not many benefits anymore to... 23:08 Uh, you know, it used to be all these hardtails, you know, they climb so much better, they're so much lighter weight, and it's like, well, remember that traction thing [laughs] that we get from, you know, full suspension bikes? 23:18 Yeah, they're, they stay on the ground more. They don't slip. They're, they're much better than you think, and they add two or three pounds to your life, you know? [laughs] So- Yeah... that stuff comes up a lot. 23:28 The gear comes up a lot, especially 'cause, um, all my coaches are women, so probably 60% of our client base is, are, are women. Um- That's big... and 23:41 what we kinda do is we provide them kind of an open space to have those conversations, 'cause that's not always easy for, uh, a woman to have that conversation in a bike shop. 23:53 But they come to our women's mountain bike retreat, big event for 30 riders down in, uh, southwest Missouri at a super fun bike park, and on Saturday night, we do gear talks. 24:04 So our, our coaches will go out and say, "Hey, these are our favorite four, five, 5'10" shoes," and the women get to see them and touch them and all that, and it's just a different, a different experience. 24:15 So as much as we, um, we're coaching them on their skills, we're also-We're doing the right thing by our sponsors too, I think, by offering some education component to this. 24:27 You know, everybody that comes to our retreats are gonna know what the new KUAT racks are. They're gonna know the 5.10 shoes, the Smith glasses and that kinda stuff. 24:35 Um, 'cause it's just a cool way to, to have a very, um, uh, a really good audience, if you will [laughs], you know? Well, and it's good for them to- 24:47 It's on the- I think it's good for your riders too as, uh, I'm sure through like a weekend they're seeing improvement, they're feeling improvement. It's nice to have a, 24:56 uh, implied like validity or whatever, you know, reliability and, okay, what they're teaching me is working. 25:02 So not that your recommendation has to be perfect and the end all be all, but at least it's something to stand on again, you know? Like, if you need a new- Sure... 25:11 whatever, pair of shoes, we all have different feet, but a F- Five Tens, you know, gonna have qualities that we're- Sure... 25:19 you're telling them they have and how they benefit them in the skills that they're also teaching. I think that's just- Yeah... tying, tying it all together. 25:26 We try to bring it up 'cause not everybody's gonna ask, and that goes- Correct... it's gear, it's bike setup. I mean, you should see some of the brake lever setups we see on some of these clinics. 25:35 And I mean, goodness, I had some, I had a, someone come to my clinic, uh, recently with a YT. Yep. Pretty nice online direct to consumer bike, probably five, $6,000 carbon bike, and the fork was on backwards. 25:52 Like, that's hobby Walmart stuff. [laughs] And this is... And it was as, as nice a bike as I'm riding, and the person showed up ready to go, fork on backwards. [laughs] Wow. That's scary. 26:04 We, we do, we gotta make sure that things are sorted. So we take them through, like, helmet checks and bike checks before they even get started. And, um, 26:13 that usually leads to more questions like, "Well, should my levers be here or here?" Or, "What if I'm sitting back or if I'm climbing or something?" 26:21 Yeah, I think, uh, some of that is just the awareness that levers can actually be- Yeah... positioned in a different spot sometimes- Yeah... or, you know, like- Yeah... 26:30 um, multiple- You don't learn that at bike shops, at a bike shop... differences. Yeah. You know, everybody's a little different, so. Yeah. I think... I, I wondered how deep the whole, like, 26:43 I'm sure you have ways to mitigate, but like, [laughs] you know, what tire should I run? I don't- Well- You know, like, I'm not sure for, you know, here's what we run. Yeah. 26:53 But [laughs] like, you know, part of this is figured out. People, I think most of the clients will give me... [laughs] Uh, that happens for about 45 minutes after the clinic. 27:03 [laughs] It's, "Hey, I noticed you're running those. Why are you doing this?" Like, "Oh, here we go." So I always have to tell my wife like, "I got a two-hour clinic. I'll be home in three and a half." [laughs] Yeah. 27:12 Right. Yeah. You know, it's very- Unless it's so- in a town that I'm at, and you gotta bump another half hour 'cause I'll be- Yeah. [laughs]... we'll have to grab some food. Um, [laughs] um, do you think 27:24 that, uh, the proliferation of... We kinda talked about YouTube, um, and the goods and bads, right? Mm-hmm. Do you think that, you n- you know, you said there's more people, um, training now than ever before or coaching. 27:42 Mm-hmm. And obviously people have, uh, access to a form of resources, I guess, at least some, you know, they're a thing, uh, that they can watch and stuff. D- is that, um, do you feel like people are coming... 27:56 And I'm not, I guess I shouldn't lead into this saying it's bad all the time. Mm. 27:59 Do you think, maybe not the guy with his fork on backwards, but do you think people are coming to you with more information or knowledge about mountain biking, more misinformation about mountain biking, or i- are the people coming to you because they're looking to establish the resource? 28:17 Do you know what I'm saying? Yep. No, I, I totally get it. 28:20 I think to answer it quickly, I would say people are definitely bringing information to me, but they usually bring it up when it's different than what I'm saying, even if it's slightly, "Oh, I saw this video where the person did this and this and this." 28:33 Um- How do you get around that? Yeah, you just- That's always a hard, 'cause you don't, it's not like I'm right, they're right, you know? But I'm right right now. [laughs] Well, yeah, totally. [laughs] Yeah. 28:45 For us, it's, we make it easy 'cause we're, we're, all the coaches are teaching the same thing. So, and it's very deliberate. There's a reason why we do everything. Everything builds on the next thing. 28:56 Um, so it's, that's pretty easy. Like, there's rarely anything that comes across other than things like, uh, do you drop a, drop a pedal in the corners or do you go flat pedals through corners? That'll never die. 29:09 That'll be, that's gonna be 29 or 27.5 forever. Um, but so i- it does come up and, um, but it's not, you can address it and, and sometimes, 29:24 that's why I say, like, not all of YouTube is bad. The information might be bad- Right... but you, we, we don't all absorb information the same way. Sometimes you need a super entertaining, like, 29:36 bubbly, you know, super loud person, high school football coach. I'm not that guy. So I, I might have all the knowledge, but my delivery kinda stays like this all the time. 29:48 Some people I could see wanting, you know, [laughs] that big- Sure... you know, that loud push off the cliff kind of, uh, voice. 29:55 But, so however you absorb it, however you, you take it in, it's great, but just know we, we're very deliberate in what we're teaching. There's, we're not just throwing our personal thoughts into this, you know? 30:07 There's a little bit of that, but it's generally there's a reason. If there's, if there's a personal experience attached to it, that's just another way that maybe we can relate to something the client's already done. 30:18 Like, if you ever push your bars too far, like a little too late and your front end drops off the drop a little too quick, that kind of thing. 30:25 That just helps them 'cause it not only teaches them what not to do, it also-Uh, makes them not, makes them realize that it's hard for... It happens to everybody. Yeah, absolutely. 30:38 Like- And, and it adds a relatability, a genuineness there Yeah. And, and that co- that comes with coaching. Like, we hear... The worst thing we... 30:47 Well, not the worst thing, but one of the hard things for us to hear sometimes, or for me to hear is the client will say, "Oh, you make that look so easy." 30:54 I'm like, "Ooh, I'm not really trying to make it look easy, I'm just trying to sh- break it down and show you how to do it." 31:00 [laughs] So that kinda keeps us to check too, where we as instructors really have to exaggerate what we're doing, um, 'cause we don't want, we don't want this, like, air of invincibility, like we do everything. 31:11 That doesn't, that doesn't help the ri- the new rider at all. You know? Right. No, I hear you. Um, I think, uh, we're gonna take a little break here. 31:23 Uh, I'm gonna come back with Jay, and we're gonna talk about kind of what you were just finishing, how Roots, uh, gets, you know, certified, how they build, um, that continuous voice, uh, and what it does for a business versus an individual, or like, you know, multiple coaches versus, uh, somebody just individual. 31:47 If you are an individual, what you can do to either get to clinics or, you know, do the work and learn what that work actually is to be a coach. 31:57 Um, and we'll couple- talk a couple other things, and of course we'll visit the lightning round. Pew-pew-pew-pew-pew. Oh, man. Pew-pew-pew. So we will be right back with Jay Thomas after the break. Hello. Hey, everybody. 32:13 We are back with Jay Thomas, Quality Bicycle Products rep and owner of Roots Mountain Bike, a coaching service for mountain biking skills. 32:23 Uh, we've kinda talked just in general about, uh, how coaching clinics have changed and progressed, adapted to new mountain bikes and changes in mountain biking, uh, things like that. 32:38 But how did, uh, how does somebody... Let's say first, they don't want... They just wanna get involved in a clinic. Um, are those hosted by bike shops? Are they hosted by Roots? Um, is there a pairing? 32:53 How, how would somebody get the most, uh, up-to-date information on when clinics would be coming around? You mentioned, again, uh, you're pretty close to St. Louis, we'll just say St. Louis- Yeah... 33:04 uh, for the, you know, more wide audience. Um, so probably not on the far East Coast and West Coast as much, but in the Midwest, let's say, where do you travel? 33:15 Some of the i- information just in regards to Roots as a hopeful participant maybe. Okay. Um, yeah, I guess for us- And what would they expect too? Sorry to interrupt. And what would they expect? We'll go into the level. 33:28 Maybe we'll go into the levels and then what they could expect. Uh, so you wanna talk about where we're at, like where, where we do our clinics first? Yeah. 33:37 I think people should know, you know, if they're in Chicago right now, uh, is, is Roots ever around Chicago? You know, that kinda thing. Yeah. 33:45 I, we are, like I said, we are based in Eureka, Missouri, so we have three coaches in the St. Louis area, and then we have two in the Kansas City area. So we do weekly, like, evening clinics in both Kansas City and St. 33:58 Louis. Uh, for our women's event, we do a women's mountain bike retreat, which is this big event we've been doing since we started. It's our, it's what we do the best. 34:08 Um, that's in September, uh, the last week, last weekend in September. That's also in Southwest Missouri. 34:16 Uh, I usually do at least one to two trips up in Iowa and Illinois, um, throughout the year as well, where I'll do a whole weekend's worth, uh, usually one day in one park and another day, um, at a different location. 34:31 Um, so I did, we did the Ingawanis, uh- Yeah, in Cedar Fall. Waverly... we'll do it up by your- Waverly... yep, not too, too far from your neck of the woods. Uh, so we're in, we're all over. 34:42 So we cover basically that whole Missouri, Arkansas, Kansas, Illinois, Iowa range. And are those events... 34:50 I know when you came to Iowa City, uh, World of Bikes, uh, I was there at the time, we kind of helped to promote and, you know, get people to it and stuff. 34:59 Is that usually the, I mean, the best method for you is to get a c- Does a shop contact you or do you... How does that work? Uh, it's, at this point they're contacting us, uh, for the most part. 35:11 However, we don't always work with, with a shop to do it. It really depends on if a shop, if a shop wants to do it, it's great because it's, uh, it's great outreach for a retailer. 35:24 You know, they're not really selling anything, nor are they making any money off of it. They're just promoting something that, um, information and more education through their store. Right. 35:34 And we handle everything, so we, we cover all the insurance and all that kinda stuff. Um, so it really kinda depends on the situation. Some shops, sometimes shops wanna have them connected. Um, but I don't think 35:49 most of the w- events we do in Missouri, uh, I don't believe we have any, or can't have any shops connected to. 35:54 Does like a trail organization contact you then or a- Does that ever happen where a, you know, a trail group or, like, wherever Ken Barker was building those crazy stunts- Yeah... 36:05 uh, you know, is there ever a correlation or, you know, "We've got new trails, we want you to come and do mountain bike skills because we also want people at these new trails." Would that be organized by the trail group? 36:16 Yeah. A, a ch- it's not necessarily. It's sometimes it's the trail group, but sometimes it's a trail building company as well. Wow. They'll wanna have a opening night showcase kinda thing. Uh, Ewing Park. Yep. 36:29 Uh, we invite to that opening day. Uh, when that first opened, that was super fun. They had photographers there and all that to promote that place. 36:36 Um-So it, it, it's always a little bit different, um, as to how it comes about. I would say for people to find out though, go to their local bike shop and just start asking. 36:48 Somebody in the shop that's sort of a clinic or, or an event, even if it's once a year. Um, there isn't a whole lot in Iowa and Illinois that I'm aware of. 36:58 Um, I would know because I probably would've certified them as coaches, and I can't, I honestly can't think of any, um, at least in the l- lower part [laughs] of either of those two states. Yeah. Um, 37:11 but I wouldn't doubt it's gonna start. I mean, uh, with, with some of the newer terrain, like, um, what's that Interstate Power Preserve up in Dubuque I hear is- Yeah, Proving Grounds and stuff is huge... 37:22 and that's, that's still what's driving it. Um, so when you have, again, that's big flowy, jumpy trails, and that seems to be driving a lot of w- what people wanna do. 37:37 Um, which is great 'cause it's, [laughs] it's fun to teach that stuff. It's fun to give people that confidence to go up and do that kind of stuff. Now, the same, by the same token, we do a lot of private lessons too. 37:48 Like, I work with some folks that do Leadville, and what they're finding is they've got this huge engine, right? 37:55 They can go for six, seven hours, but they don't, they're totally relying on fitness, like we talked about before. 38:02 Um, and what you're seeing, even up at the Olympic level at this point, is athletes are realizing there's a cap to fitness, but there's really no cap to skills. And if you can add those skills in, 38:15 you can spend a little less time on that fitness and, uh, you'll just roll over stuff that maybe you're overthinking. 38:23 Yeah, that's why I have to take young kids when I meet them mountain biking, 'cause this old whippersnapper can still rail a corner. [laughs] But if I take them on the open road, they just blow my doors off. Yeah. 38:33 [laughs] You know? It's like, "Hey, slow down. Wait, let's put some trees in here." Yeah. "Leave a couple berms and a table." It's wonderful. So now we're on the same page. [laughs] Yeah. 38:44 Um, you know, you mentioned Ewing. I mean, and, and just in trails, Ewing Park is a CEDA, Central Iowa Trail Association trail here in Des Moines that's like two minutes from my house. Yeah. 38:54 And there's a trail line, the first line you see when you go there, before cross-country, before anything, is Grave Digger, and there's 10-foot tables. Yeah. I mean, eight, eight-foot tables I would say solid, multiple. 39:07 Um, and that's the first feature. Now, there is a BMX track there too, and a bunch of other cool things. But it, it's not like you really have to be in the know anymore, you know? Yeah. 39:21 Back in the day, you had to know the guy that had a skid loader or something- [laughs]... that was really into BMX probably and was building dirt jumps, and you could ride your full size mountain bike. 39:32 'Cause now I think that's a big thing in jumping too. These trails aren't, uh, BMX dirt jumps that we're riding full mountain bikes on, because the wheel base thing really throws that off. I think. 39:45 This is mountain bike skills parks and jump lines and stuff. And I think even myself, I've been... I mean, I did my first mountain bike race 39:57 20 years ago, I guess, to be honest, so I've been riding a little longer than that. Um, I'm just starting to really get into jumping my... 40:07 I've been jumping my Beargrease a lot, honestly, 'cause it gives me a little wiggle room. But, um- Yeah... 40:13 because the jumps and the takeoffs and the angles and the trajectories are much more accommodating to my, uh, and technical trails in certain places. Yeah. My bike is, it feels more like it is built to do them now. 40:27 Uh, and I feel, you know, good about it. Part of it's following the Goldfinch guys too, 'cause you just th- end up in the air. Uh. [laughs] Yeah. So be it. But you know what I'm saying? It's not like- Yeah. 40:41 I feel like- Yeah... a lot of dirt jumping was kind of renegade for a while- Yeah... because of maybe liability or whatever. Yeah. Well, and I think you, the builders that built, I don't know if it was... 40:55 who actually did the, the park at Ewing, but that was really smart. I mean, I w- I spent a lot of time working with, uh, municipalities and cities to try and build, get bike parks funded and things like that. 41:07 And, uh, one of the mistakes a lot of them make is they don't put it out in, in the public. You can't see it. Um, you kinda need to open that up to, you know... Ewing's a perfect example. 41:19 Like you said, you pull into the parking lot and it's like, "Holy smokes, look at that jump line," you know, straight across that field. [laughs] You cannot miss it. Right. You can't miss it. 41:26 Um, I've been to great bike parks that are just buried in the woods and, you know, if you're, if you're selling a city on the economic benefits of building a bike park, you gotta be able to sell it a little bit too. 41:39 Not, you can't just rely on the local mountain bikers, 'cause there's simply not enough of us. I mean, investments in some of these parks are, you know, hundreds of thousands of dollars. Um, so 41:51 I felt like if they could- I felt like I saw that in Coralville, the flow trails, which, uh, Backyard Builders was building and- Yeah... 41:57 uh, some of that was, I thought, really coming along awesomely when we moved, and I'm sure it's even better. But every time I'd be there I'd hear somebody roll up and be like, "I didn't even know this was here." Yeah. 42:08 Uh, 'cause it's a little bit out of the way currently. Now, there's some construction that hopefully is gonna open that up in the fields, in the park. But yeah, I think it's... 42:16 Do you think that's an old insurance liability kind of mentality of like... I mean, it's a big jump, you know? Yeah. Granted, at Ewing I see all levels on Grave Digger just riding that line. Yeah. 42:30 My wife likes to just ride that line. Yeah. 42:33 And there's a personal accountability and responsibility that has to come into play, but do you think that's-Maybe part of why some of that techier, droppier, even just m- you know, rugged mountain bike was always the deepest stuff 42:50 Yeah, probably. Yeah, just 'cause they were a lot, lot... You know, I hate to say it, but a lot of it was probably rogue, you know, just- Rogues, right... people building stuff in the woods. Like, we're past that. 43:01 We don't, you know... You wanna do that, build that on your own property. Don't go mess with the local mountain bike club's trail. 43:07 They just spent years and years building these relationships, um, especially if they're working with politicians. I mean, the politicians flip every however many years, right? So, it's- Yeah... 43:20 that's a never ending kinda relationship that needs to stay strong is if you wanna continue to build more stuff, you gotta work with everybody a little bit. 43:29 So, building rogue stuff or just getting into that, the big, big scary stuff and just tucking away in the woods versus, 43:39 uh, somehow doing the fundraising and getting a, you know, McGill Fabrication or something like that to come in and do a contract, build this thing, and it's perfect. You barely have to work on it. 43:50 Um, that's way easier for cities to deal with. Um, now a little bit off topic too, you were talking about Jessica riding that and other people that maybe don't normally ride jumps. 44:01 The other thing that you gotta realize is that a lot of these bike parks, the green trail is a jump trail. Right. But there's no... It's not a ski resort. [laughs] It's not, you know... 44:11 At a ski resort, that's the only place you really ski, right? On a mountain bike, if you go to a bike park that's got jumps and things, you can kind of assume that the green jump trail's pretty hard. 44:20 It's not the easiest thing to ride a green Strider park at your local- Yeah... your other spot, right? There's, there's a little bit different level. Um, I know we run into that a little bit, um, calling, 44:34 you know, jumpier trails green trails or blue trails. They're like, "Man, I can't ride this blue trail that's a 40-degree slope down some rocks," you know. [laughs] Right. Yeah. I think, uh, Jessica found that. 44:45 You know, she rode, uh, Bobsled, uh, up in Cuyuna, and I, I think it's either a black or a double black there. Um, but Cuyuna, I think, is a more temperate trail system over... I mean, there's huge lines. 45:01 Like, don't get me wrong. But they're blacks because it's more of a destination thing, because of it's more of a growth-oriented place where people, you know... 45:10 I don't, their blacks are not the same as Colorado's blacks. And we'll just all, you know, that's always the whatever. Black at Uing is not the same as a black in even Wisconsin. [laughs] You know? Right. 45:21 Um, and that is kind of, I think, does a disservice sometimes on both ways. It maybe inhibits people from riding a trail 45:30 that is black because of this skill, but maybe they have that skill, but that blue, they just can't even do. You know what I mean? Right. Because they don't have that particular other skill. Yep. 45:41 That's interesting that you bring that up. So you've got three levels, uh, of certification as a coach. Yep. Take me through, like, what level one establishes. 45:53 You kinda mentioned that, like, level one is good for, uh, maybe somebody that just wants to do some coaching, kinda casual, you know, have the knowledge to be- Yep... a coach. Yep. 46:03 Two is maybe you wanna make a go of it, so you're really refining things. You're learning how to probably build some other coaches. 46:10 And then three is a, a much more dedicated position, I'll say, just because of the time and, uh, everything it takes to get to. But can you give that a little more... 46:20 Uh, say we now got a person that is like, "You know, I like teaching and I like mountain biking. Maybe I wanna be a mountain bike coach." What, what's the trajectory for them? Okay. 46:30 So, well, the, the company that we're talking about is the Bicycle Instructor Certification Program. Uh, the website is icp.bike. And w- if you go to that site, you can go through and see what each level is. 46:42 So they teach three different levels, and then there's a bunch of other classes in the middle there that, that are a little bit more specific to certain things, like a, like a bike park guide. 46:52 That person needs a little bit different skills than a level two instructor that lives in Missouri. You know? [laughs] Mm-hmm. Yep. It's not necessarily gonna... 47:00 It's getting a little closer in terms of terrain, but, um, the courses are, each course is three days. There's a level one, a level two, and a level three. The level one is something you would use, um, if you're, 47:13 you're... Say you're at a bike shop and you're, you're the person that leads the, all the rides, and they're trail rides, you know. 47:20 So y- you al- you're not only taking people out on the trails, you're also able to fix their bikes. You're able to handle their medical issues, things like that, emergency situations. You've got that covered. 47:32 'Cause most of us, most bike shops and whatever are just gonna send their u- their rider they know [laughs] that can do it on a Thursday, you know. 47:40 [laughs] Um, this is a way more structured thing where they would do, like, a check, a bike check, a little bit more education piece to it, and a little bit of skills. But that's more, "This is your braking position. 47:51 This is your position when you're going around corners, how you lean your bike versus steering your bike," that kinda thing. Mm-hmm. As you get into the level two, you get into way more skills. 48:01 So level two is nothing but skills. I think it's, like, 18 different skills, and you have to be proficient at both doing the skill but also teaching it, uh, to a group. 48:10 And then on top of that, part of the teaching is, like with any teaching, you teach the people how to do the skill, you have them roll through, and I give them errors, and the coach has to figure out what's wrong. 48:24 So it's a pretty strict, uh, testing procedure. There's a written test, a practical exam. It's a very heavy three days, uh, like eight or 10 hours a day each day, groups of six people, one instructor. Um, so the level... 48:39 And then there's the level three. Now, the level three is-You really want, this is what you're doing. You are investing a lot of time in this. 48:48 Um, sh- there's only probably three level three courses taught in the country a year, so you might be flying to California just to get that certification. 48:58 Um, I got my level three certification in 2018, and I had to drive [laughs] to, uh, uh, Fayetteville, West Virginia. Um, so those are the three levels. 49:09 I'm also an instructor trainer for that company, so basically I'm contracted out to teach those courses. Um, but that, those are the three pieces of it. Um, it's a lot of fun. 49:21 I do probably five of them in the Midwest every year, and they're any- usually just level ones and level twos. 49:28 Uh, I will be helping teach my first level three in Vermont in September, and then from there on in I'll be teaching some of the other level threes, uh, in other parts of the country as well. 49:39 There's only three of us, uh, if, I should say, there's only two people that teach the level threes now. Uh, one is Lisa Scher, who was, uh, 10 years on the downhill world cup circuit. 49:50 Um, and Sean Zbart, who is the, the head of the BICP, and he's a legendary mountain biker, Red Bull Rampage competitor, um, world championship downhillier, masters downhillier. Um, he's, so he's the guy. 50:06 So I'm, I'll be working with him in September, and, uh, hopefully if, uh, everything goes well, I'll be able to teach some of the level threes and really get into a little bit more of the advanced. 50:15 So it's a little confusing in that I have the level three instructor certification, but they're teaching me to teach the level three. Um, so I lo- I really have, uh, enjoyed teaching teachers. 50:28 I di- I didn't know that that was gonna be something I would like as much, 'cause I was, it's nerve-wracking teaching people that are already instructors and already have some kind of a business. 50:37 And I mean, some of these people have, have been coaching for 10 years. Um, and I gotta come in and tell them they're doing something wrong. It's like, "Oh, well." [laughs] So, uh, it's a lot of fun. 50:50 It's, you just kind of figure out what makes the most sense for what you wanna do. If you're leading rides, level one's great. 50:56 If you want to actually get into teaching clinics and helping out other professional instructors, level two is what I would be looking at. For people on my team, I would, uh, you need to be at least a level two. Yeah. 51:09 Um, and that keeps the verbiage consistent. I want them to go to one of my Kansas City clinics with my other coaches, and have it sound pretty much, you know, just like what my clinic would sound like. Right. 51:20 And like you said, it's a, I think the thing for some people is they only see roots in an isolated, you know, like, uh, Iowa City gets maybe a roots clinic once a year. 51:32 But for a lot of people, uh, in the Kansas City and St. 51:36 Louis area, uh, and potentially other people's expectation could be, as you crush your cer- you know, you crush that and you start training more level threes, um, you know, that could be popping up. 51:49 There, there's people that you're seeing on a weekly basis, right? Or, like- Uh, no... barely weekly? Not even. Not even. It's, uh, yeah, I, I mean, we, there are some people I guess that I talk to. 52:04 Like, I, I definitely get a lot of videos [laughs] sent to me from people that have taken clinics, and I encourage that 'cause a lot of times they can send me a video, and in 30 seconds we can correct something that they've been struggling with for- Right... 52:16 weeks or months or something like that. Um, but it's not, it's surprisingly not as involved as you think. I, I mean, again, I'm a QBP rep. I am- Right... 52:27 going all the time, so this is still s- very much something I do on the side. But that being said, I have four coaches. You know, we did 16 clinics in June, and I only did two of them. Right. 52:39 So it's wor- we've expanded a little bit in that respect. 52:43 But we have found that midweek clinics, like, since COVID happened, um, w- we went almost a whole year without teaching anything, 'cause it, again, it's- Of course... not something we have to do to survive. 52:55 We're just, this is fun. We're- Right, right, right... teaching out of jumping bike. You know? Like, there's other [laughs] things. Just we're not gonna put anybody in a bad situation, um, for something like that. 53:06 So we started teaching just groups of two household in, uh- Mm-hmm... maybe in August of last year or something like that. Sure. 53:14 Um, and what we found was 'cause all those big events weren't happening that, um, we'd do these small events with two to six people, and that was huge. We could easily keep people separated. 53:24 Um, so that just, it went and went and went. And, and at this point there's three other coaching businesses in St. Louis, um, and all of them were just buried in clinics. So there's a lot [laughs] of... 53:37 That's a, and that's a network that I've, I don't wanna say I've built, but they're all instructors that have gone through my, uh, BICP course programs. Um, so and it's cool to see 'cause it's, 53:50 the more awareness there is about it, it kinda, like, rising tides, the whole thing. That's what I was gonna say is I think- Well, there's value in being a person that kinda helps. 54:01 It, uh- I think mountain bike coaching clinics, you know, a- as like, 54:07 yes, more are gonna come, but I think that's gonna be good for everyone because, um, I, I would say there's a lot of misconceptions to mountain bike-ing, like we touch- talked about at the beginning, you know? 54:19 There's a lot of misunderstandings maybe or, uh, the unknown unknowns probably- Oh, yeah. [laughs]... is the real thing. Didn't know that I don't know. Uh- Yeah... 54:29 but so more clinics is better at the beginning and then, you know, r- you know, raises all ships. Like, everyone's gonna get better as there's more feedback. 54:40 Um, like you said, when you're teaching teachers, I would assume that's more communicative in some degrees, and everyone's getting better in certain ways because of-They picked up things, you know? 54:53 You've got a, a construct of course, that's why you're training them, but to a degree, verbiage, things like that, I'm sure there's at least a- Yeah... awareness, right? Like, oh, people use this term. Yeah. 55:07 We don't, but now I know people use this term for this and I'd never even heard that before. Right. Yeah. And I think, you know, in a weird way that's how I built my community with, or, you know, this bubble. 55:19 Like, if the other... If we can help friends, we can help riders, that in turn helps bike shops. Uh, we can get different feedback, 'cause, uh, w- you know, our approach to this is not a s- a sales approach in any way. 55:32 We're very open to getting feedback and, you know, I can tell you countless times where we've had an event, you know, in 55:41 Bentonville and I've called the, you know, Fat Tire Bike Shop down there and said, "Hey, stock up on Fox knee pads." And they'll- Right... 55:49 go through 15 sets of knee pads in a weekend because they see us wearing them and we recommend them. It's like, "These work great for this, this, and this," and they have them in stock, and the shop's like, "Thank you. 55:59 You know, we had no idea that [laughs] was coming." Right. And it's, to me, like very symbiotic. Or, you know, in the way that like... 56:06 I mean, and honestly, without like, you said earlier shops don't make money, but you know, if you're a shop that's aware that a mountain bike skills clinic- Correct... 56:14 is coming, people are bringing their bike in to make sure they're ready to go. You know, they're getting sealant, they're getting these things, 'cause they want the clinic to be successful. 56:24 And then after it's successful, if you've done your job too- Yep... you should, business should turn out like business. I mean, it, you know like- Right... you took care of them, they know things, they want bikes. 56:37 Well, you're a good place to pick up bikes, you know? 56:39 Well, yeah, and I think that's, that's a result that I don't really think about a lot, is that, you know, if we, we do an event for a, a shop and the, the customer is a client of mine but not of the shop, now they might have a new customer out of it, you know? 56:53 Right. I mean- And maybe has never been in their store. Right. So. 56:58 And I think that's just good for mountain biking and people growing in mountain biking, because I don't know anyone that bought their first mountain bike and was like, "Yep, this is the style even of bike that I like." 57:13 Yeah. [laughs] You know? Like, you know what I mean? Yeah. There's no way... The ceiling is very, very high on mountain bikes because of technologies. There's no way you can get it, like even the good bike 57:27 is gonna be totally different by the time, even if you love your bike and you never want something different, it's going to fail at some point- Yeah... out of you crushing on it. 57:36 And then it's gonna be a whole new world of stuff, you know? Because it's been five- Yep... six years or whatever minimum. Oh, yeah. Yeah, for sure. 57:45 Well, Jay, I think, um, I think it's time for the [imitates gun shooting] Oh. We don't really know why I shoot guns for the lightning round. I like the sound. Great effect. But yeah. Oh yeah, it gets you ramped up, huh? 57:59 Uh, this is the lightning round. It is, uh, basically four, sometimes I come up with a fifth, rapid fire, kind of short answer questions. Do you feel prepared? Yeah. That's awesome. Good- [laughs]... good response. 58:15 All right, here we go. First question: What do you think is the most overlooked mountain bike skill? Or maybe not overlooked, you can interpret this a little bit. You know, undervalued. 58:33 Uh, cornering by far. Cornering? Yep. Yeah. And, uh- Everybody can, everybody can get better at cornering. [laughs] Yep. I don't care what level you're at. 58:42 Um, when you're riding good, you're feeling good, what's your favorite trail to be on? In St. Louis let's just say, let's just talk about a St. Louis a- area trail. Uh, man, favorite trail to be on here? 58:57 It's gotta be Zombie. Zombie. Just- And what's the overall trail system that that's a part of? Zombie is part of, uh, I guess it, Rock Hollow I believe is what it's, what it's called. 59:08 It's a network of probably 12 or 13 miles of trails- Cool... interconnecting on a, on a paved bike path. Oh, that's sick. Yeah. Really accessible about to know. Fun. Yeah, super fun spot. 59:19 It's, it's the best, one of the best we have here in town, so it's- When you're having a bad day on the bike, what is your least favorite trail to be on, where you're just like, "Oh God, why did I even choose to ride this trail today?" 59:33 Oh, [laughs] for sure. What is it? The Chump Trail. [laughs] The Chump Trail is our oldest, roughest, gnarliest trail we have. It's great for enduro races but man, if you're having a bad day, it gets exponentially worse. 59:49 [laughs] Yeah. Anywhere- It used to be Hell Trail for me at Sugar Bottom. It was just like if I was having a bad day, it wasn't even the most technical, it was just like, "I'm not riding this trail. 59:58 I don't wanna do this today. I'm done." [laughs] Yep. 1:00:03 If you only had one bike to cover all your mountain biking needs across the entire country, I know this is like one of those tough ones, what would the travel front and rear be? Uh, probably 150 front and rear. 150, 150? 1:00:17 Yep. I'm on a 160, 140 bike now and- Just level it out? Yep. [laughs] Just- I'm telling you, 150's been my, my jam for a long time and I love it. I, you know, isn't that just crazy? 1:00:33 Like, I know for you, you came from a little bigger stuff. But to me, to even like consider 150 bikes, it just blows my mind and- Yeah... I really like a 140, 130. A 130, 130 or 140, 130 depending on where I'm riding at. 1:00:47 It is a really good bike for me in all conditions. For most people I would say, uh, that's, a 140, 130 is-That's a pretty nice spot right now, yeah. Mm-hmm. Um, after a hard day coaching, what's your favorite snack? 1:01:07 Snack or meal? Um, let's say meal is fine, too. Meal is fine. I gotta go, I gotta go burritos, man. Um, like you can never... I'll never get upset about a burrito. I agree. I mean, if it- Breakfast, lunch, dinner... 1:01:20 yeah, even if it's bad, it's still pretty good. Yeah, it can't be that bad. [laughs] I know the main components- Mm-hmm... and I'm for all of them. [laughs] Yeah. [laughs] Even the worst. I know. 1:01:30 Well, that's exactly what I thought it was. Yeah. Uh, it's pretty good. [laughs] Yeah. All right, and the last one, if you had to give advice, a piece of advice 1:01:42 to a person standing at the top of their first good-sized jump line, what would it be? Oof. Um, man, top of their first big jump line. 1:02:01 Man, that's a tough one. I would probably tell them to, uh... If I make sure I know roughly the [laughs] right thing to say here. Um- No, it's first thing that pops in your mind. Man, I... for me it's always feet. 1:02:16 My feet. Remember your feet. Don't start by the pull-up. Start with your feet. I'm saying- Let the bike, let the bike-... send it... rebound. No. 1:02:23 [laughs] You saying that, you saying that is why I continue to have a thriving coaching business. [laughs] Yeah. And so- That's... wait, that's not the best recommendation to somebody- It is... 1:02:33 who may be a little nervous at the top- But, yeah... of their first big jump line? You keep using it. [laughs] I'll b- I'll say, "Send it." This is funny. I'll pat them on the back and I'll have your business card. 1:02:42 Hand me a business card. Yeah, and just let them go. [laughs] There you go. Hey, Jay. Yeah. You survived the, pew, pew, pew, pew, pew, lightning round. Okay. That was tough, though, huh? I was sweating. 1:02:53 I'm not gonna- Yo, I'm perpetually a little sweaty, but we'll get through it. Yeah. Jay, hey, man, um, I really appreciate you, uh, on pretty short notice giving me, uh, your time and chatting with this. 1:03:09 Uh, like I said, for me, uh, the real catalyst is fatbike.com and some of that crew. 1:03:16 We are hosting a, a mountain bike festival and, you know, you probably won't have time to get to one of Jay's clinics, but mountain bike festivals just by and large to me really- Yes... 1:03:28 changed my whole perspective of cycling. Um- Yeah... 1:03:30 the comradery and the ability to go to places and exist in trails and having a foundational skill set, um, uh, you know, was imperative to feeling comfortable going to these new places, having maybe one shot to ride tra- a certain trail on the weekend, you know, two at the most maybe, um, but feeling comfortable and confident and fulfilled, uh, peripherally, you know, not just from the clinic. 1:03:58 Uh, Jay, where can people find Roots Mountain Biking? We don't have to give out you personally. I'll go ahead and attach your cell phone number on the header. That'd be great. [laughs] How's that? 1:04:08 [laughs] No, I'm kidding about that. But where can they find Roots Mountain Bike, um, Instagram, Facebook, that kind of, website, that kind of stuff? Okay, website is rootsmountainbiking.com. 1:04:18 If you just Google Roots MTB, that's the first thing that comes up. Um, YouTube channel is Roots MTB as well. Uh, Instagram, @rootsmountainbiking, and then, again, Roots Mountain Biking on Facebook. Pretty consolidated. 1:04:33 Uh, I'm doing a YouTube video series as well this summer that talks a lot about, uh, it's called The Road to Recert, and it's me going through all these skills for this level three certification. 1:04:42 So you kind of wanna see what it's all about, you'll get a little bit of a taste of, of what we do and how it works. That's cool. YouTube is hard. I'm a much better coach than I am a YouTuber, I promise you. 1:04:53 [laughs] Well, you're- But I'm learning. [laughs] You're doing great on this. 1:04:56 [laughs] Uh, [laughs] um, and then for people who want to get to clinics, the best advice you can say right off the bat is regardless if you're in the Midwest, East Coast, West Coast, wherever, uh, go to your bike shop and engage somebody- Yeah... 1:05:10 about helping you develop skills. 1:05:12 Because if they're not interested, like, and I'll throw this out there, if they're not interested in hearing about you wanting to further your skills and they don't wanna be a part of that, you need to go to a different bike shop. 1:05:25 [laughs] Yeah. I'm gonna say that out loud. I'd love for them to support the bike shops 'cause they want, you know... because that's, you're just... it's good karma. Right. 1:05:35 Everybody get- Like, like with the clinic- Everybody wins when we're all happy riding bikes. Yeah. All right. Hey, I'm Adam Blake. I'm on amblake50 on Instagram. It's a lot of food, but occasionally I ride a bike still. 1:05:49 Good. Been pretty fun lately. Um, I am on the number one site for not just fat bike information, mountain bike 1:06:02 stuff is coming, tire sizes, tech stuff, gravel stuff, bike packing stuff, food stuff, fat-bike.com. You know where it's at 'cause you're listening to the show, but tell your friends. I'm Adam. 1:06:20 I thank you for listening. Jay, I appreciate your time, buddy. Thank you so much. I had a great time. Yeah. Everybody keep the, uh, wheels on the ground unless you're on a sick jump line. 1:06:31 [laughs] We'll talk to you again soon. Bye-bye. Thanks, Adam.
