Transcript 0:00 [singing] Well, I'm not sure how much longer I can walk this straight and narrow. 0:13 I can't walk this straight and narrow too much longer, too much longer. 'Cause this town is killing me. All the sadness I can see has got me down. 0:31 [upbeat rock music] Welcome to Fat Camp Show number 36. Fatbike.com presents Fat Camp, a more or less monthly podcast covering different technical aspects of fat and plus bikes. 0:42 Look for all our shows at fat-bike.com/radio, or subscribe to our feed on iTunes. 0:48 Uh, just a quick heads-up on the show that I screwed up a description that was a little on the mathy side, uh, when we originally recorded this, so I edited in a correct description near the end, and the audio's a bit different, so hopefully the transition isn't too jarring or too annoying. 1:04 [singing] For me to pay the rent. [upbeat rock music] Well, the people keep on moving. Welcome to Fat Camp number 36. And the strange ones, well, they're running. Glad that you could make it, folks. 1:21 Ken and I are back for another discussion. Just in case you're new to the podcast, I hear people do this in podcasts. [laughs] This is what they do. 1:28 [laughs] Uh, if you're new to the podcast, my name is Andy, and I'm here with my friend Ken, and we are the Fat Camp Podcast, where we talk about, uh, technical aspects of fat and plus bikes. Yes. Got that right. 1:40 All right. Hidey-ho. Yep. There he is. Yep, from Ken. It's the holiday season. We're recording this before, um, we get to chill a little bit. 1:48 Um, our weather hasn't been cooperating very much with us in terms of snow fat biking. We haven't got a lot of snow, but we've had some really, really, really good winter riding for the last almost month. Yeah. 2:01 I mean, we- there's been-- You can find pretty good fresh snow or whining golden retrievers. Oh, yeah. Sorry. We just started getting our interruption there. 2:10 People that listen to us always know there's a golden retriever that's gonna be whining somewhere. Yep, exactly. Um, we might get a yelp here in a second 'cause he wants attention. 2:18 But, uh, uh, we- But we still have some good rides. Yeah. We've, we've had some really, really good riding. 2:23 It's like we- you've got a couple batches where if you go to the right spot, you got, you know, six to eight inches of fresh snow. Yeah. 2:30 And then it's gotten enough to kind of keep it refreshed enough for midwinter conditions that are- Yeah... really thin. Yeah. You know, we just haven't had, you know, any kind of like real base start to build up. Yeah. 2:41 And, and some of the, uh, uh, some of the, some of the excitement is that we're, we're kind of ending this shoulder season, and we're trying to get into winter, and we'd like de- to happen faster, but it's not. 2:54 But, um- Yeah... so there was some excitement there, like, "Ooh, there's, uh, temporarily snow." Yeah. Um, but anyway, um- But we know, like this weekend, though, sketch city. You know? Ooh. 3:05 We finally got down to the, the gray ice. Yes. You know, it melted down to that, so. Yes. Some of my students have taught me that, sketch AF. Ah, yes. They'll say that. Yes. 3:14 This quiz was hard AF, and I was like- [laughs]... once I found out what that- I wonder what that means. Hmm... well, yeah, I went, as soon as I figured that out, I was like, probably don't want to describe my... 3:22 Anyway, um, we've got, uh, uh, number 36 coming at ya. 3:27 A, a brief outline, and then, um, we'll put you back, back into those killer tunes, and then we'll come back, and we got a lot to talk- We gotta talk about what we've been, what's at least been going on somewhat. Okay. 3:37 All right. So- Um... we'll get to that, and then we'll get into, like, email and- Right, right, right... some other stuff. Um, well, what's up then? Oh, okay. We're gonna do it right now. All right. All right. 3:50 Well, or we can take a break, you know? [laughs] Let's- Let's- Let's just get after it. All right. So- Let's do that. Yeah. Um, not, not a ton going on. You know, like there's not like really races or anything. 4:01 We did end up having the Singletrack Showdown. We had Global Fat Bike Day, though. Global Fat Bike Day was good. Oh, we had a ton going on, now that I start to think about it- Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah... 4:06 the whole list. Global Fat Bike Day was interesting. Yeah, that was rad. Great ride. Yeah. Well, um- Great turnout... we gotta, we gotta like, we gotta set the table on this one 'cause it wasn't just a ride. Okay. 4:17 It was an event. Yes. It was a, it was a happening. It was. Um, so we ended up having a bunch of friends get, uh, a huge-ass military tent- Yeah... installed, an ambulance out there- Yep... that you could sleep out of. 4:33 Um, somebody's RV was back there. Yeah. Um, ended up having a conversion van at one point. There, there was a fireplace. There was a stove inside the military tent. Yeah. The military tent had a- Yeah... 4:44 really good wood stove. And, um, you know, it, it was a good ride. It ended up just turning into a shitty ride- Well, the-... you know?... the trail like dead-ended, um, right into our camp. Right. 4:56 And so it was like this perfect location. Yeah. Uh, everything got set up Friday night. Um- Yeah... you know, we had a really, really, really good, uh, you know, f- uh, Global Fat Bike Eve- Yeah... you know, ride. 5:09 Shout out to Mike Peterson for the tent. Yeah. Then we ended up having a great Global Fat Bike Day with a lot of people turned out, which was sweet. Yep. 5:17 Um, and then, you know, it was like an excellent evening, you know, hanging out for another night out there. Yeah, yeah. So that was just, that was a very, very, very good camp. Yeah. It got really smart later on. 5:28 [laughs] You know? Everyone- It always does... everyone was figuring everything out. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. It was like- So yeah, that, that was awesome. That was good. Had a couple of parades in there, I think. 5:37 I don't know if that was- Oh, yeah, we did the parade. Yeah, there's Ludington Parade. There was the parade. 5:40 We had, uh, we had the little fat bikes in the parade dressed up as reindeer hauling a little elf down the, uh- Yep... down the road. That was good. Yep. A little, like a little sleigh action in there. 5:49 Some lumberjacks on fat bikes. [laughs] That was good. The tandem made an appearance. Yep. That was good. Yep. So- Sweet. Yep. So that was all good. 5:58 Um, so we've had all sorts of fun stuff going on, but- And we had a heck of an election. [laughs] Let's just put it that way. [laughs] Anyway. Um-Yeah, so and then like ride-wise- Oh... 6:12 I've been spending a lot of time like doing research for the Arizona trail. Just started training again and- Well, and you've got like tires coming out your ears. Yeah, exactly. 6:21 I got a lot of stuff that I'm really excited to go ride, so I've been wanting to do a lot of riding. Yep. Um- The, uh, the RSD Mayor is, uh, en route from, uh, Canada. Noice. So that should be showing up. 6:34 I'm gonna throw that in the test hopper. [exhales] That'll be nice. Probably by snowfall. Yeah. Hopefully. Yep, that'll be really sweet. Get to ride that thing for eight weeks. 6:42 So I'll have that coming out at fatbike.com s- later, not sooner. Yep. [laughs] Yeah. Um, what else? But yeah, so like I've been riding those, those pub wheels, the 27.5 fat wheels. Yeah. Um- Thoughts? 6:57 Well, it- I've been riding the Vanhalgas on there- Right... like almost exclusively, and th- those are some just amazing tires. 7:04 I couldn't think of a better tire setup for what we've had so far this year, with the exception of this weekend where it got really icy. Why do you think it's taken so long for you to discover those? 7:13 Uh- 'Cause they've been around for a long time, haven't they? No, I mean, I, the... I've always thought the Vanhalga looked like a good tire, but- Okay... when the Vanhalga came onto the scene, 7:22 there was starting to be really good bigger tire options. All right. You know what, there's the Bud and the Lou, and there's some other things that, you know, are all- Beasties. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. 7:31 Like, and, you know, I ended up going with those, and I, I, if I was looking at a 26-inch Vanhalga versus, you know, like, you know, the, you know, Flow and Dunderbeast or a Dillinger 5- Right... 7:44 or a lot of the other things like that, I would probably lean more towards the bigger tire. Right. But by having it be a little bit bigger diameter, it seems to increase the, like the sweet spot of that tire even more. 7:57 Okay. And it's, it's a really, really good tread design. Okay. It was just too low a volume for basically how big a dude I am when there's other better options with better float. Gotcha. 8:05 So having the 27.5 gives it a little bit more float. It still makes it so it rolls super fast. It's still got super, super good traction. Um, it's just a great all-around tire. 8:14 Uh, a little foreshadowing there, I think, about our discussion tonight. [laughs] Yes. We don't wanna- Yep... let the cat out of the bag, though. No. Right. 8:21 No, but I will say that, you know, it's like- They're a good tire. The, the, yeah, the 27.5 Vanhalgas are super rad. Okay. It's, it's, like I've had... 8:30 That is like the best tire I could be riding for the last month, and then- I've seen you do test strengths, uh, feats of strength in, in test hills. Oh, yeah. 8:38 And, uh- Yeah, it's like, it's super fun to try and do that stuff. Yeah. And they've held well. I often wonder, like, how much of it is your skill ability, though, too. Uh. 8:46 Well, but I mean, the, this, we're gonna get into the weeds a little bit, but I mean, what, what I'll typically end up doing is, um, either I will be riding with somebody else who I'm very familiar with, you know? 8:58 Like, I totally know what their, their strengths and weaknesses are- Right... how I compare to them. Okay. And then I know what they're running setup-wise. So it's like that's, that's one really good barometer. 9:06 And of course, everybody has good days and bad days- Mm-hmm... and stuff like that, but in general, you know, there's all the, you, you'll get those outlier days. Yeah. 9:15 Or you'll end up having one of th- you know, like one of those days where, like, you're going up these hills, and it's like you're right at the absolute edge of being able to make it up there. Mm-hmm. 9:23 And, you know, that's where, like, little differences can make a huge difference. Either you can ride the whole damn thing, or, you know, you're walking a good chunk of it. Sure. 9:31 And, you know, that's where those comparisons to, you know, your buddies that you ride with can be really, really, really valuable. Okay. 9:38 And, you know, like, in the case of this Vanhalga, like, I was like, man, this, you know, I've, I've been riding, and riding, and riding, and riding. I'm like, man, this thing feels awesome. I love this tire. But then 9:47 I was riding with, um, two guys, Brian and Scott- Yeah... who are super strong riders. Straight up varsity. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Brian was on a Beastie setup. Mm-hmm. 10:00 Um, and then Scott had a Lou on the back and a 2XL on the front, and we were riding in, in the deepest snow with maybe eight inches of fairly fresh- Yeah... 10:12 you know, and, like, some of the shallower spots, it would get down to, like, four inches. Okay. But, like, when you get up in the hills, that's where the deepest snow is. 10:19 So we'd be doing these super steep hills, like, where you're just, like, spinning and just trying to, like, keep on going, and, um, I had traction that was pretty darn close to Scott with a Lou, and I was aired down more than he was, but I had better traction than Montand did, Brian did- Mm-hmm... 10:36 with his Beasties. So, you know, it was like then- Why in that, why in that case does a narrower tire help out, though? Oh, we're getting, we're getting into the, the later concepts here. 10:46 We're getting ahead of ourselves. [laughs] Um- I hate getting into the weeds, you know? But let's, no, that is a question that we should get into later. All right. 10:52 That, that's gonna send us off in a whole nother direction. All right. All right. So- All right, all right, all right. Yeah. Well, okay, let's do this then. That's all we've been up to lately. 10:59 We're gonna take a break- Yeah... with some killer tunes, and we'll be right back with a multiple of 13.25. There we go. 11:09 [rock music] We're back to the snoring golden. 11:30 Ah, yes, it has been a while. I want to apologize for being off by a half inch. [laughs] My math was- Yeah, a little bit off... while we were in the weeds there talking about- Multiple 13.5... Vanhalgas, yeah. Yeah. 11:43 Um, but anyway, um, you can email me. Uh, no, actually, you're pretty good about checking it, too. You can email us at Fat Camp Podcasters. Plural. That's plural. [laughs] What are you doing over there, Ken? 11:57 You- I'm pouring a beer. Okay, all right, all right, all right, all right. So, um, so yeah, email us at our plural Fat Camp Podcasters, uh, @gmail.com. Um, if it's, uh, an easy question, I'll respond. 12:11 If it's not, it gets forwarded, but sometimes he checks it before I do. [laughs] I mean, anyways, you can email us. Also, we're on the InstagramHighly active, [chuckles] not, um, @fatcamppodcasters. It's also plural. 12:25 He's, now he's drinking the beer. Yeah, I'm just- Okay... distracted. All right Sorry. Um, so check us out on the, uh, Instagram, and that's the only way you can get ahold of us, thankfully. 12:34 We got an email from our friend Graham out in Keene, New Hampshire. What's up G- uh, Graham? Thanks for the, uh, email. I wanna read it, and, um, we'll see where it goes from there. Yeah. Okay. 12:46 I think it'll lead us places. I think it'll be a wormhole. Ken and Andy, happy fat bike season. Hope all is well in Michigan. Thanks, Graham. Happy fat bike season to you, and all is well in Michigan. 12:59 Uh, KBS has me excited about the new Terrene 27.5 by 4.5 cake eaters. Have you discovered a good way to estimate if frame bike f- if fat bike frames can take a 27 and a half rim with that big of a tire? 13:15 Very interested in trying that format. Thanks, Graham Re- or Graham from Keene, uh, New Hampshire. Um, so bottom line, how do you know if your frame can fit a 27 and a half inch rim with a 13:33 four and a half inch tire, four inch tire? Yeah, in that case, four and a half inch, like he was- Okay... he specifically was talking about the 4.5- Yeah... cake eaters. But maybe just, maybe any size too. 13:42 In, in general. 13:42 Well, um, I think when it, when it comes to the 27.5 stuff, because right now that is kinda like the, the, the, the big limiter on most bikes right now, if you're gonna try to run 27.5 and you wanna run a full range of tires- Yeah... 13:58 is gonna be the diameter. Okay. It's not gonna be the width. Most, most fat bikes are made for a tire that will go, you know, up to like 4.8 inch or whatever. Okay. 14:07 You know, it's like, um, some of the racier bikes, they'll only maybe fit up to like a 4.5 or 4.6 inch tire. Okay. But if... 14:15 I don't have a really good way of describing this, but if you look at kind of the shape that most frames are in, um, like basically at, at the stays, like around the tire, generally it's fairly round. Um- Okay... 14:29 you know, like if you have a tire that's four and a half inches or less- Yeah... you're not gonna be hitting on the sides. Normally, what you're gonna do is you're gonna be hitting on the top, in the case of the 27.5. 14:39 Okay. So the diameter is the really important, um, measurement. Okay. 14:44 Um, it's not, back in the day when everybody was talking 26 inch tires and tires kept getting bigger and bigger and bigger and bigger, it was like the width was always the really important thing, and then, you know, sometimes you'd get into different parts of the frame where it, 'cause it kind of tapers in and stuff. 14:57 Okay. But in this case, this is actually a little bit simpler. Diameter is the big limiter. Okay. So how do you figure out if your frame can fit that? So take your bike, take the wheels out- Okay... 15:11 put the axles back in. Doesn't matter if it's quick release or it's gonna end up being a thru-axle. Most people are gonna be thru-axle. Okay. 15:19 Um, and then as best as you can, measure from the center of the thru-axle to, like, you know, I'd say the sort of the center of, you know, your cutout on the chain stays. Okay. 15:34 Do the same thing up to your seat stays, from the center of the axle up to there. Um, you wanna end up having 15:42 minimally, I mean, the, your absolute minimum would end up being like a half a centimeter, you know, six millimeters- Okay... at least. 15:49 I think that's, if I remember right, the industry says that that's what a bike is supposed to clear minimally when they list like a stated tire size or whatever. Okay. 15:58 But I, for fat biking, I'll be honest, that's probably pushing it. I, I would go more than that. I'd go for at least a centimeter. So I'm measuring up to maybe that little bar that crosses my, uh, seat stays? Yeah, yeah. 16:12 It, it depends on if you got a metal bike or if you got, you know, a carbon bike, but you know, typically it'll end up either being two pipes with a, one adjoining- Yeah... 16:20 kind of forming like an H or an A kind of- Yeah... shape. Right. You know, or it's gonna end up be molded in, and it's like, just measure up- Okay... 16:26 you know, from the center of your rear dropouts up to the, you know, the seat stay bridge. And- And then do it for the chain stay bridge... how do I know the distance of the wheel, and then put it in then? 16:38 At least as far as fatbike.com goes, we try to always give accurate diameter numbers. Okay. From the center of the hub to the top of the tread? No. [laughs] All right. Diameter would be from one side- Oh, yeah, yeah... 16:51 of the wheel to the other side of the wheel. Okay. So you, like what you do is you take the diameter numbers that we publish- Okay... divide it by two, and that plus a centimeter, 17:02 you know, is how much room you're gonna need for a tire. And, and it kind of like, let me get back to why, you know, like I was talking about, okay, six millimeters, eh, you know, it's kind of like a hedge in. 17:11 Th- there's a, a lot of times that fat bike tires have a little bit of wobble and stuff like that. When you manufacture this big a tire, your manufacturing variances get a lot bigger. Yeah. 17:20 So, you know, it's very easy to be like, you know, oh, it fits in one spot on your rim, and then you turn your tire and it doesn't fit in another spot. Oh. Um, and snow buildup is a major thing. Okay. 17:31 So, you know, yeah, you might be able to skimp on clearance, but in general, clearance is a very important thing, so don't skimp too bad. 17:40 And then I'm hearing, and, and the other thing is like, the bike will flex when you ride it. Sure. So the tire can end up hitting tubes when you're riding that, that doesn't hit in your stand. 17:51 I mean, I've heard about people having studded tires and carbon bikes. Ooh, no, stop right there. And that can turn out really bad. Yeah, that doesn't sound good. 17:59 So, you know, th- this clearance thing is not to be messed with. Those... 18:03 Okay, we might have to edit this, I don't know, but that distance from the center of your thru-axle up to your back of your seat- Basically like the top of the seat stay bridge- Yeah... 18:14 or the chain stay bridge, I guess that's the best way... 18:16 isn't gonna be the same distance as to the bottom bracket, right?No, they could be completely different So b- you take- You have to check both of them Would everyone shorter then? 18:25 Yep, yep Multiply by two and- Yeah, so- Okay... and I guess, you know, the, the other thing is most forks are gonna fit a 27.5 no problem Oh 'Cause most, most forks are suspension corrected, so they're really tall. 18:37 Okay You got a, a shite ton of room- Okay... at the top of the tire between that and the bottom of the fork crown Okay So m- it, it's gonna fit on the front most bikes just fine. 18:47 Like the, the first gen Farley where they had that funky little bridge, that you're, you might run into issues. Oh I think on those definitely. I don't, I don't know what the measurement is, but- Okay... 18:55 that's pretty darn low, so I'm almost positive you're gonna run into issues there Gotcha Um, and if you have a s- like a non-suspension corrected fork, you might run into issues Okay. That's, that's it then? Yeah. 19:05 I mean, that's, that, that really is all it takes to do it. Now, that said, um, there's a lot of people that have their, you know, undies in a bunch because their, quote unquote, "27.5 bike" won't fit, uh, like 19:24 this, this year's like kinda generation of 27 by four-inch tires, like AKA the 40 f- uh, 45 North tires, the Van Haliga and the, um, Husqvarna. They are bigger 27.5 now? K- yeah, okay. So thank you- Oh, okay... 19:40 thank you, thank, I, me, I- First of all, I wanna thank you for having a clean mouth tonight. I appreciate that. [laughs] I haven't done very well. I've, I've already had a few. 19:47 No, you said, you said shite ton Okay, I, I- Yeah... I cleaned it up a little bit- No, I, I think- Sanitized slightly... 19:52 I, we have a few listeners that, you know, can- Hand sanitizer on a turd, yeah Yeah, ex- exactly So [laughs] All right. So- Okay... what- 20:00 So the first generation of 27.5 tires, like if you look at the Bontrager, like the Hodag, um, I think th- it would apply to like the Gnarwhal. I, I don't know if you can get the Barbegazi in that size or not. 20:12 B- you know, and then you got the Maxxis, like, you know, Minion pair, the FBR, FBF Yeah Um, then you've got the Terrene Cake Eaters. 20:21 I think that's all of the, all the 27.5 tires that were offered up last year that were labeled as 3.8 inches, but they weren't 3.8 inches Oh Like almost all of them ended up measuring [laughs] out at like 3.6 on, and, and a lot- Yeah... 20:34 of rims are only 70 millimeters Okay So what's, what's happened is this year, um... And then there was, there were some other, like Trek, you know, had their Bontrager tires. 20:45 Mm-hmm You know, and I, I guess, you know, I definitely wanna end up saying hats off to, you know, Trek and their Bontrager line for making a full line of tires. I mean, they- Okay... 20:54 made, made these skinny little tires for 27.5, and then they made some bigger ones. They made some ones that are labeled as 4.5s. 21:01 Um, so you know, they ha- they're the only people that have really been offering a full range. And then all of a sudden this year, 45 North jumped into the 27.5 game, 21:10 and they are offering, I think it's, it's kinda, it, it's conflicting. On the tire casing, it's molded in and it says 3.8 inch, but they, I think they call it like the Van Haliga 4- Okay... 21:23 kinda thing, so it, you know, uh, you know, who knows if it's four inches or 3.8, but it actually measures out at really like a 3.8 if it's on an 80 mil rim Okay And I guess that's the other thing is like people aren't skimping as much on rims it seems like this year. 21:36 They're going with the full 80 to 85 millimeter that we've known for a long time is kinda the ideal winter fat bike width for, you know, a good chunk of riders. So is it that 21:48 one of, some of the first generation frames to fit that size wheel doesn't fit the wider widths now? Cor- well, what, what happens with, this is where I was talking about the big limiter is the diameter. Yeah It, 22:05 what's happening is that there's some bikes that aren't built to have that tall a tire Okay They can handle the width. 22:12 Okay So like, I mean- I forgot that they're also tall on the ends Instead of bouncing around, I'm just gonna call this out. So Salsa last year, their 2018- Oh, Beargrease... 22:22 Beargrease Yeah That was the same frame that they had used in prior years as a 26-inch bike Okay And it fit up to, um, I don't know what you wanna call it, like the 4.6 quote unquote "tires", um, on an 80 mil rim- 26 Which, correct Okay Yep. 22:40 So you know, that's, that's a very practical size, so it'd fit, you know, the, the Flow and Dunderbeast. 22:46 It would fit the, you know, Dillinger 5 Yeah Um, there's a, there's several other tires that are kinda in that same range, you know? An Endomorph [laughs] Not quite. 22:57 But um, so we, that was, that was a really versatile 26 or, you know, f- race bike Okay But what they did is they, they just kept using the same frame, and they put 27.5 inch wheels in it- Okay... 23:10 because that was the hot race setup, and that's the race bike. 23:14 The problem is that that bike was really designed for 26-inch wheels, and it, you know, it was, it, it, they basically shaved every gram they could off that thing when 26-inch wheels were a thing, and they knew these 4.6 tires were gonna be out there, or 4.5 or whatever you wanna call it. 23:31 Um, s- but they didn't make it tall enough for 27.5 by a real 3.8 inch tire. The first gen of these littler ones that measured out like 3.6 inches wide- Right... skinny rims and all that other kinda stuff- M-... 23:43 you could squeeze them in there and you'd have enough room Sure But you can't run these Husker, like the Husqvarna or the Van Haliga from 45 North- Right, revamped... 23:52 which are quote unquote, you know, a four-inch, 3.8, whatever the heck you wanna call it tire Yeah, yeah, yeah. 23:56 Okay So it was like there's some people that are kinda ticked about that because they're like, "Hey, wait a minute. This isn't really even a 27.5 bike." Yeah And no, it isn't. 24:06 It's, you know- Oh, I've seen some ranting on that Yeah, and, and I guess in, you know, to kinda sum all this up, so this year Salsa, their 2019 Beargrease is redesigned, and it's got more clearance Oh So it can fit the bigger tires Okay But it's like, you know, the 2018, which is the same frame as the 2017, 2016, I think- Right, right, right... 24:26 it was released in 2015, but I might be wrong. You know-Same frame for that whole time, designed, optimized for 26. Yeah, it happened to fit the first gen of 27.5- Oh... fat, but- Oh... that's pretty much it. Gotcha. 24:38 Yeah. Okay. So- So... they, they made up for it this year then. Are those bikes available yet? I believe so, yeah. Oh, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, they are. Yeah. Yeah. 24:46 I'm th- I was thinking of a different line of Salsa, or a different... Some different bikes from Salsa are not available yet. Yeah. Um- Yep. Well- So, yeah, so, you know, to kind of just bring it all home. Yeah. 24:57 Check di- Bring it on home... check diameter. That is the big limiter. Okay. Because these 27.5 wheels are really flipping big diameter-wise. Okay. I'm gonna do that. 25:09 Uh, not that I can, um, wanna get another wheel set, but, I mean, that's, it's, it's... I'm curious to know if it, if it works for your- Yeah... for your, you know. Something to do. Um- So- But go ahead. 25:20 Well, I was just gonna say, w- an, an alternative to just measuring the diameter. Okay. Um, and this is not a direct thing that you can do yet, but this is, this is a challenge to the Fat Camp, uh, listenership. Okay. 25:33 Um, so we're gonna include a link in the show notes. Okay. Because, I don't know, may- this is, this is kind of a, a gravel, randoneur, dorky kinda thing, not fat bike related, but there's a company called Compass. Um, 25:51 it, they, they've been kind of on m- you know, the leading edge of some of this stuff as far as lower pressures, fatter tires for a lot of years. Yeah. 26:00 You know, they're way into some s- kinda classic bikes and a lot of kinda gravel, all road type stuff. Yeah. 26:06 But they carry a lot of interesting parts, and tools, and some of these things like that, and there's a- [laughs]... 26:14 um, there's a guy, Han Rossman of Rossman Cycles, who's a custom builder who built like this, like basically it's, it's like, it's this plastic template thing where what you can do is you can put on different sized tires. 26:29 And this, this only works for what I would describe as kind of common all road tires. Yeah. So, like up to like, I wanna say it's like a 52 millimeter- 54. 54, okay. Yep. Yeah. 26:39 So, like if, you know, there, there's some people who try to run like a 54 by 26 or 54 by 27.5 on their road bike, you know, like their all road bike. Yeah. 26:49 Um, and he, he has a really nice fit gauge, but what he created could easily be done for the fat bike world. Oh, yeah. 26:56 And it would not be that difficult to kind of do some really good approximations because in general, um, every tire, you know, the casing ends up being pretty spherical for lack of a better term. 27:10 You know, it's like, or I shouldn't necessarily call it spherical. It's toroidal. [laughs] What? But no, like if you look at the cross-section- [laughs]... it's basically the, the tire casing's round. 27:19 If you like chop the tire in half. I've never heard that word in my life. I don't think I've ever said that word or heard that word either. [laughs] But it's a toroid shape. Yeah, that's- Toroidal. 27:29 It's, it, it, it- Okay... it's, like if you ended up... Like if you took the tire casing and you were able to continue or con- continue around where the rim is- Yeah... you basically have this donut shape. Okay. Okay? 27:40 Yeah, yeah. That's, that's what a, a, a toroid or a toroidal shape is. I, I, I believe you. Okay? And if you look at like from bead to bead- Right... 27:50 almost always what happens is that internal pressure on it makes that thing form, you know, an arc. A circle. A circle, or a portion of a circle. So, 27:59 if, you know, like if you, if you talked about like if you take the measurements we have on our site where we're like, okay, the casing measures, uh, uh, let's say 4.5 inches. Okay. Okay? 28:10 So, that's your diameter, that circle. Yeah. And you could basically work this back based off of like where... 28:16 I think it's, it's not the bead seat diameter, but it, you would have to bead seat diameter plus a little bit. 28:21 And the bead seat diameter is like where the, on the rim, that flat spot where the, the bead of the tire kind of like bottoms out before it kind of turns up to the, the sidewall. Right. 28:32 If you just basically got that kind of measurement where the, like in general, where the top of the bead is- Wow... and then you just were able to put that 28:41 round shape on the top, you'd end up having a, a really, really, really good template that you could put into a bike and be like, "Yep, it's gonna fit for sure." 28:52 So, if somebody were to make this, you could then cut it out of cardboard or whatever. 28:56 You could just basically print it off on your printer, put it on a piece of cardboard or something else that gives a little bit of structure to it, and you could measure perfectly if tires would fit. I'm blown away. 29:08 I, it, it would be a really easy thing to do. I just haven't had time to do it, so that's why I'm challenging our Fat Camp listenership. Okay. 29:17 And if [laughs] you email it to us as an attachment, you win, you win a prize. We don't know yet. You're, yeah, you win the... You're awesome. That's what you are. Yeah. 29:27 [laughs] Yeah, you're like- I'll send you a prize... you are, you are like stoking the fires of fat bike dome for everyone. Wow, okay. You're giving back to the community. All right. Nice. 29:37 St- uh, click on that link, get the feel for it- Yeah... and then design it. Yeah. Um, wow, okay. Sorry. I got a little- To- tor- toroidal... getting a little dorky there. Yeah. 29:46 Um, we're gonna stay with this 27 and a half thing because, well, because you've been riding them. Yeah. And I, I got a lot of questions about them. Yeah. And so, I mean, and I guess to put a statement out there- Oh... 30:00 I believe that- Okay... 27.5 fat this year, just this first season, has finally come of age. You're making the call. I am. You heard it here on Fat Camp. Yeah. 30:10 Man, no, well, it's like I've been holding out, and I guess where- Okay... where, where I'm coming from with this is me, and I think a lot of other people, have kind of looked at the 27.5 thing and been like, "Okay, 30:22 there's some, some cool science. What they're saying, what Trek is saying about this, Bontrager is saying about this makes sense." Okay. 30:28 But the tire selection's just way too limited right now.You know, we, we need to end up having the, you know, the tire selection fill out because we've got it so good in 26 world. You know, it's... 30:39 We're basically, you know, with... When you go to 27.5, you're kind of like bumping back to, oh, okay, you know. Like, the [laughs] the Hodag was like the end no more. You know, we're like- Right... 30:47 we got one tire, and this is kind of cool. Right. But- Yeah... it's only one tire. Well- And then it, then it kind of expanded from there. Yeah. 30:53 And like, like, you know, I said earlier, hats off to, you know, Bontrager and Trek because they've got a full line of tires, but it's still kind of limited. It's just like a couple tires, you know? 31:04 We need to have that like spice of life variety of like a lot of different manufacturers jumping into it, and we finally have it. We got Terrene, we got 45NRTH, so. 31:13 Do you think it's reflective of what kind of fat bikes people are buying then? I mean, y- yes and no. I mean, you know, let's face it, you know, Trek, they're one of the big fat bike brands. 31:26 You know, we, we've talked about this- Yeah... before where like, th- you know, um, there's, there's a few big manufacturers that are really pushing the envelope I, I guess I, is how I would put it. 31:38 You know, they're really putting development dollars into their fat bikes. Okay. And I mean, that's Salsa and that's Trek. Okay. Those, those are the two biggest ones. Yeah. 31:48 Um, Surly has done a lot to really refine their designs too, but it, it's kind of a different, you know... They're not like pushing the envelope performance-wise necessarily. Right. 31:56 Yeah It's like just really good quality riding bikes. Um, but like Specialized, you know, they jumped. They threw their hat in the ring with the Fatboy, which was a really good carbon bike for 26, but then 32:08 they haven't done anything with it for how many years? Right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know what I mean? Yeah, yeah. It's like they haven't shown it any love. Like- Yeah... you know? So, you know, 32:16 the, the, the 27.5 thing, um, I guess I'm not really sure where I was going with all that, but it, it, other than, uh... I mean, re- it's really starting to fill out. 32:29 You know, we're, like, we, we, we have these two major brands. 32:32 There's a bunch of people that are getting on Treks, so there's a bunch of people on 27.5 who are now starting to go, "Okay, uh, you know, this is a cool concept, but..." 32:42 And, and, you know, there's a lot of people like, you know, myself who have been kind of on the fence. We're like, "Okay, you know, I'm a, I'm a, I'm a big dude. I'm a really big fan of big wheels. 32:51 You know, d- I don't have any design considerations, any negatives associated with big wheels. You know, I've got a lot of power to put out. 32:57 I'm, you know, a big, fairly heavy rider," so a lot of these, you know, claims that, you know, Trek and Bontrager have made about, you know, it being a more efficient way to get float because of the bigger diameter and all these other things- Mm-hmm... 33:11 really appeal to a rider like me. So I've been kind of sitting on, you know, the sidelines being like, "Okay, this makes sense, but the first gen of most of this-" Okay. "... 27.5 stuff was stupid." Mm-hmm. 33:25 I mean, I, I, I hate to put it that way, but, you know, like you go back to Trek's claims and what they talked about were like, okay, the bigger diameter- All the way back to the interview that we did with- Yeah... 33:34 Travis Brown. Yeah. And it's like in w- that interview when we talked to them, we were talking about 29 plus as well as- Right... 27 Fat. 33:41 So, you know, there's a little bit of mix in there, but the 27, you know, 5 Fat stuff was kind of stupid when it first came out 'cause you look at... 33:48 What they did is they, they made all these wheels that are like 3.6, 3.7 inch wide tires, so the overall diameter's still like the same as like a 4.5 inch, 26 inch tire. You didn't really... It wasn't much bigger. 34:02 Oh, I gotcha. You know what I mean? I gotcha. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So it's like they, this, this, the whole thing about, well, bigger diameter makes it so you have better float is kind of a, a bullshit thing. Yeah. 34:14 You know? 'Cause they didn't follow through and actually make bigger diameter wheels. They just downsized everything so it would be lighter and, you know, supposedly roll faster and all this other kind of stuff. Gotcha. 34:25 So, you know, that's why I kind of call out that first gen, you know, as very, very racer boyish. It was very much how many grams is this thing? 34:34 You know, let's try to make this thing go as fast as we possibly can for- Right... a very limited skill set or- Make sure that they're riding it on like pimped out, groomed- Yeah, yeah, exactly... you know? 34:46 Yeah, super firm conditions and stuff. Super excellent conditions, you know? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, so what's happened now is that we've started to get this big wide range. Like I feel, I feel like the 45NRTH tires, 34:57 those are the first tires that are actually really practical for a pretty broad range of ti- Okay... you know, conditions. Whereas like, you know, the, the 3.8 inch Minions, I'm just gonna call those out. Okay. 35:08 You know, the, the thing that, you know, they're, A, they're narrow. [laughs] Yeah. So you don't have a lot of float inherently in them. 35:18 But then they're very low profile because the tire casing's so, you know, it's so skinny- Mm-hmm... and you're putting it on this big wide rim. There isn't a lot of tire there. So, 35:26 you know, the, the, they're a very short tire. Ah. 35:30 So, so what happens is you start to let air out, and you don't have a lot of range to work with to start with, so they have a much more narrow pressure range where they feel good before you start bottoming out on the rim. 35:44 Okay. So you kind of limit your float ability that way too. It's like, it's not only are you limiting, like they're skinnier- Right... but now it's like you, you don't have the same range of pressure you can work with. 35:57 Right. So their, their window, like their sweet spot, whatever you wanna call it, is much more narrow than a bigger tire. And 36:08 the, the plus side to this, I've only talked about kind of negatives, but the plus side to a taller tire is that, um, it bounces more. You know, it's like so you, you know, that n- that is not necessarily a good thing. 36:20 If you're riding on dirt condition or really firm conditions and things like that, and you're launching off of stuff, you're catching air, you're, you know, going over roots and rocks, you're doing off camber stuff, you know, that-... 36:32 tire stability, like a taller tire is, it's not as stable. Oh. So it waggles around- Now I get what you're talking about, yeah... it'll fold over at low pressures- Yeah... all these other kind of things. 36:39 So it feels really funky. Okay. You know, when you're in powder or other conditions like that where it's very soft, there's so much wiggly-waggle going on- Yeah... 36:49 you know, it doesn't make a difference how pressurized your tires are and like how, you know, sta- stable that casing is. You know, you're, it's, there's stuff going on all over the place. Yeah, yeah, yeah. 36:59 But when you're on hard conditions, like if you're riding on dirt, a 27.5 by like those 3.6 inch tires, I mean, they're like, they're like really sweet plus tires basically. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know? 37:09 So it's like, I mean, the, for that application, they'd be really, really rad, but they're just, they're not a good winter setup. And the knobs are taller? Not necessarily. Okay. All right. Yeah. Oh. 37:25 Oh, I thought you were about to... Oh, ah, I thought you were talking about the Van Halga one. Well, okay, so, so like is, in the case of the Van Halga, that's, that's- 'Cause that's a, that's a narrow tire. 37:33 No, not, not by 27.5 standards. Oh, okay. All right. I mean, it's, if w- when I compare it to somebody who's on a 26 inch Van Halga- Yeah... it was basically the same exact width. It's just way big in diameter. Okay. 37:45 So like the diameter of that thing is, I don't remember. It's, it's, it's almost 29 plus sized. Okay. 37:53 You know, it's, it's a, it's a really big diameter, so that's, that, it's, I think it's, it's a little bit bigger than like a Butter or Lou. Okay. You know, so it, it's very big diameter. Wow. 38:01 You know, that, if it- That's big. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, and this is why I talk about diameter being the limiting factor. Yeah. 38:06 Because like the diameter of it, if I remember right, it's a little bit bigger than a Butter and a Lou. Oh, it's huge. I wanna say it's like a quarter inch bigger diameter, half inch bigger diameter. 38:13 So, you know, that's where this, this thing gets really big in the frame. And, you know, the, it, it- That's a big tire. Yeah, exactly. 38:23 And it, you know, depending on what your bike's like, it can really affect your bottom bracket height and a lot of these other things like that. 38:27 And this, that's where, you know, it's like, it's a significantly bigger diameter. Now, 38:33 we've said a whole bunch, and I wanted to actually say this at the beginning and I forgot to say this at the beginning, but there's a big asterisk on this entire podcast that I feel like is really, really important to emphasize, is that if you look at, you know, I'm... 38:47 We're gonna say a lot of things about the performance of a 27.5 tire versus a 26 inch tire, but it is all relative. Yeah. 38:57 And if you look at the percentage diameter difference between a 27.5 and a 26 inch tire, that is 4.5% difference. Okay. That isn't shit. Yeah. Sorry, I had a cat in my lap- Yeah... who's being really annoying. 39:13 A nasty cat. Yep. Um, so- It, okay... 4.5%. 4.5% difference between a 27.5 inch wheel? Yeah, the diameter of 27.5 versus 26. Okay. Actually- Not with a tire on it... well, e- either way. Okay. 39:30 I mean, pretty much everything scales proportionally unless they start doing these weird things like I talked about before with the low profile tires. 39:38 Then in that case then, you know, the amount of diameter increase you get out of the tire casing- Yeah... it, on a 27.5 was considerably less with that first generation- Right... 39:48 you know, versus a 26 or the same labeled size. So is a 4.5% size increase a good thing or a bad thing? Well, I mean, it, it's, w- the reason why... Okay, so let me kind of give a couple of comparators for this. 40:05 So one comparator, another wheel size debate that a lot of us who have been riding for a while are familiar with, when things went from 26 to 29 inches. Okay. That is an 11.2% difference. Okay. 40:18 So, you know, that is a significantly bigger jump. Okay. And I think, you know, most people that kind of went through that were like, "Whoa, 26 inch bike, 29 inch bike, way different feel." Totally. 40:31 So this is, you know, it's not quite a third, but it's not a half, that's for sure- Right. Right... of the jump when you're talking 26 fat versus 27.5 fat. So, okay, let's look at it a different way. 40:42 Let's talk about another comparator. So think about normal soft conditions riding. Okay. Let's say you've got five PSI in your tires. Right. And, you know, so let's say it's a super soft day. 40:56 You should be at like three or four per, you know, PSI. What is the difference there? 41:01 And it's like, and anybody who's ridden, you know, like o- on those soft conditions and like all of a sudden it's like, [imitates PSI hissing] you know, they let out, you know, half PSI of PSI. Sure. 41:10 They're like, "Holy shit, it makes a big, big, big difference." Right. And- What's the, what's the percent- Oh, go ahead. Well, so, so if you go from, let's say five PSI to four PSI- Yeah... it's 20%. Yeah. 41:20 So there, there's a lot of these other factors that can have a much, much, much, much, much bigger effect than changing the diameter. Ah. Ah. Okay? Gotcha. Yeah. Click. So, yeah. 41:35 So there, there's a lot of these different things where it's like there's, you know, when you think about the range that we move through as far as the pressure of our tires or these other things like that- Sure... 41:43 or even like if you go like a four inch wide tire up to a 4.8 inch tire, you know, I don't, it's, that's beyond my like- Oh... alcohol addled brain at this point to figure out what the percentage is. 41:54 You can't, you can't do the percentage on that one? No, not, not at this point. 13 and a quarter? No, actually I think, I think that's gonna be another 20 percenter, but I could be wrong about that. 42:03 But- I won't hold you to it... but- Anyway, the point... yeah, you know, um, the bottom line is that is a much bigger percentage than what we're talking about with this rim diameter change. Okay. 42:13 So everything we talk about, we're talking subtle differences. They're not super, super significant. We're, we're splitting hairs. Yeah. 42:21 If everything else is kept equal, so you're on the same exact tire, same exact width- Same athlete... same exact pressure. Same watch. Yeah. Watts. Same conditions, you know, but you're just talking 26 versus 27.5. 42:32 It's only 4.5% difference. It's not that big a deal. Same amount of Fireball in the flask. YepYep. On the way to the ride, the same things happened. So that, that's my big asterisk on everything here. Okay. 42:44 So, so that said, um... [sighs] Wait. I had a conversation yesterday with you. Yes. Why is it called 27 and a half- [laughs]... when it's not 27 and a half? I think that was just a marketing decision. Okay. 42:58 Um- I, I found out yesterday it's not 27 and a half. No, it isn't. It's, it's actually, like, if you look... Okay, this is a side thing. If you actually look at the diameters of 26-inch, 27.5, and 29, 43:13 um, there really is, like, a three-inch diameter difference between a traditional kind of 26-inch tire, like, with, like, a two-ish, two-and-a-quarter inch tire. Okay. 43:25 That's about 26-inch diameter, like, if you actually measure the outside of the, the tire. Okay. 43:29 And then if you put that same size, you know, two, two-and-a-quarter inch tire on a 29er, that actually measures 29 inches in diameter. Okay. 43:37 So there's a three-inch difference, but if you put that same two to two-and-a-quarter inch tire on a 27.5, it measures way closer to 27 inches than 27 and a half. Okay. 43:50 And it was kind of just a marketing thing where they were trying to market this as this is the in-between size where you get the benefits of both. Yeah. So they call it 27.5, but- I'm not gonna call it 27.5. It's not. 44:00 I'm gonna call it 27. Yeah. It's- I don't know what you're talking about. That really is what, more what it is. It's more 27. Yeah. So it's much closer to a 26-inch wheel size- Yeah... than it is to a 29-inch wheel size. 44:10 And so much of the wheel debate stuff, and this kind of gets back to why I'm like, "4.5% [laughs] it's not that big a deal." Right. You know, you know, 44:19 the 26 to 29 was very polarizing and there was a big effect because, you know, it's like way over 10%. This is, like, a third of that. Yeah. Not... You know, it's a little more than that. It's not, but it's not a half. 44:31 Right. You know, it's like there's not a huge difference here. Right. But, you know, there are serious ramifications. Does it fit in your bike? And when... 44:40 You know, there's certain conditions where I think that the performance advantage can be more than 4.5%. There's just a lot of factors involved. Okay. Gotcha. [laughs] I gotta, we gotta take a break. Yep. 44:54 I gotta process some things, and we'll be right back. Live your life out on the corner. Live your life until it corner. In a coffin, in a corner. 45:08 To fool you into thinking that the poison you've been drinking's worth that payment. So we're back, and, um, you're in the middle of a... If you just joined us, you're in the middle of a, of a 27- [laughs]... 45:24 discussion. No longer 27 and a half discussion. Um, but here's, here's what I was thinking about the whole time that I was trying to process what you were explaining to me and, and sharing with me. 45:35 Um, if the difference... Let's, let's go back to the 4.5% difference between 27 and a half and 26-inch fat tires, whatever. Yep. 45:47 Um, and the width of your tire is a larger percentage difference, and the pressure that you run your tires at is a larger percentage difference, and the amount of, the, the size of your turd that you had that day- [laughs]... 46:03 is a larger percentage difference in performance. Why even have the discussion, why even spend the time talking about such a s- a 4.5% difference? Well, for- As in, at an inc- insignificant, I think. But... Okay. 46:18 So- Aren't those val- more valuable things to talk about then? Uh, no, they are not more valuable things to talk about because, 46:26 you know, basically these are the standards that we're working from, and it doesn't make a difference how much we theorize about how they shouldn't have done, you know, 27, they should have done 29, or this, that, or whatever. 46:42 You know, the bottom line is this is what we got. Okay. Now, I will say I, I... [laughs] If you're gonna start up a whole nother blooming standard, do it right. Okay. I wish that track had gone a little bigger. Okay. 46:58 You know, it's like I wish they had gone for, you know, a six, seven, 8% difference or whatever. It's like, you know, they... 'Cause there, there's a million different standards out there for these different wheel sizes. 47:07 Okay. And they could have chosen a different one, but they happened to just choose what was already being used in the mountain bike world. You know, you got 20 s- you know, a 26, 27.5, and you got 29. 47:19 29, if you did that with fat, you would have just these enormous wagon wheels. Right. It would not be practical for a lot of people. 47:26 Um, even though it might have some really good performance characteristics in certain conditions, it is just not that practical for most sized riders. Mm-hmm. You'd have to be, like, big dorky people like me. Mm-hmm. 47:37 S- so by, you know, looking at the three standards and then you go, "Oh, okay, 27.5, it's bigger than 26, so it's closer to being quote-unquote better, more efficient, whatever- Yeah, yeah... 47:47 the heck you wanna call it," you know, that was, like, the only real option they had, so they went with that. Okay. But I wish they'd gone a little bigger. I will totally agree with that. 47:56 That said, we do need to put this 4.5% into context, because I've kind of belittled the 4.5% and said it doesn't make a difference, 'cause it really doesn't, you know, I mean, compared to some of the other things you can do. 48:06 But I think there, there are scenarios where... Yeah, and, and also let me, uh, say, you know, when we talk about the 4.5%, this is, that is just strictly a diameter percentage difference. 48:20 You know, there are so many factors that go into tire performance and what actually happens out on the trail. Yeah. 48:27 You know, it's like you, you can have varying conditions, you can end up having varying tread patterns, you can have varying pressures, you can have varying casings. 48:34 Like, there are some casings that, you know, like, deal with low pressures better than other ones. 48:38 So, you know, it's like a tire can be really good in low pressure and it can suck at higher pressure or vice versa or whatever. You know, blah, blah, blah. You know-There's all these factors that go into it. 48:49 That is what we absolutely love about fat biking on snow. Every time you go out there, it's different. Totally. And it's rad. Yeah. You know? 48:55 It's like you kinda have to feel it out and get used to it, and then you gotta tweak your setup, and it's just, that's the thing that's awesome about it. 49:02 So, you know, it's important to keep in mind that a 26-inch setup, that if you really know it well and you are very attuned to it, and you got a good tire quiver and you like, are like, "Okay, I'm gonna have these conditions. 49:14 So I'm gonna have these tires, I'm gonna have this pressure," if you nail all of that, you can easily have a better setup than 27.5. Or if you just have a very... 49:25 And I think this is what applies to more riders, if you just have, like, maybe o- like one tire that's got a really wide sweet spot, and you know how to get your pressure right for it, or you have maybe like two tires or two sets of wheels. 49:37 Like you and I, that's typically- Yeah... what we've always done, had two sets of wheels. Have, like, sort of a studded set and then have a deep winter set. You know, or whatever. Mm-hmm. Um, 49:46 you know, if you know those two and you know where they excel, and you look at your conditions, you're like, "Yep, this is the setup for today," 49:53 you know, that can be a more effective thing than, like, the quote unquote quiver killer, you know, or whatever, like going with one 27-inch setup. Yeah. 50:03 I- it's probably a different podcast, and maybe one to think about in the future, but I think a lot of, um, people that fat bike have one set of wheels, and they have one set of tires that came on that set of wheels- Yep... 50:14 and that's what they run. Yep. And, you know, I guess, I don't know. I don't know. I guess I wanna hear about the, this, the nuances or the performance, um, differences 50:32 of this 27.5. Oh, so, okay. And to kinda speak to that? The- Because I'm just a guy who keeps the same tires on my fat bike, and I like fat biking. Well, yeah. Right. 50:43 Yeah, no, I know, and I, I think, you know, I think that's a really, really, really good point. And my early impressions are that 27.5 might have a wider sweet spot than 26. Okay. 50:53 And I'll ex- I hopefully will remember to explain [laughs] more on that in a minute. 50:57 But the thing, though, is that, like, you know, like I said, I've said it a couple times already, you know, I commend Trek for coming out swinging on this 27.5 and having kind of a fairly complete range for one company of tires available. 51:12 Mm-hmm. You know, they've got something that's aggressive, they got something that's kinda more in between, they got something that's, you know, faster rolling. 51:17 They've got two different sort of float options with the casing. That said, up until this year, you know, it's like if somebody asked me, "I'm getting a bike, what size wheels should I get?" Mm-hmm. You know? 51:31 And I'm like, okay, this is a person who's only gonna ride, they're gonna rock one setup. Mm-hmm. [laughs] I would never have told them to go 27.5 in the past. I always would've said 26. Would you now? 51:43 I can finally say, all right, yeah, if I know how this person rides enough, yep, there's gonna be some really good tire options that are available that have a nice big, wide sweet spot that'll work for you. 51:54 Um, I wanna get into the sweet spots, the, the more sweet sats- sweet spots for 27 over 26, but if I'm a noob and I'm getting a fat bike? I don't think it makes a difference. You can go 26, you can go 27.5. Okay. 52:08 All right. You're, you're gonna be covered on either end. Okay. All right. Yeah. If I'm getting a new fat bike, I might look at that bigger wheel size. 52:17 Well, uh, you know, the big reason why, I mean, like, if y- if you're just gonna, like, get the bike and just ride the shit out of it, you know, [laughs] you're gonna, you're gonna be served well if you go 27.5. 52:28 If it's a true 27.5 bike and it can fit the 4.5-inch tires. Okay. You know, you can do the full range on it. You're gonna be served just as well with that as you would be if you were getting a 26-inch bike. Okay. 52:39 Because, you know, from the little bit I can tell, you know, you finally have the same kinda, you know, deep powder conditions of stuff available. You got the full range, you know, or to the racy end. 52:50 Would there be ever any reason to get a bigger, [laughs] a 27.5 bike and then have another set of 26 inches? Yeah, I mean, I- I mean, with the-... I kinda can see that. Okay. 53:02 I mean, it's just, you know, the 26 inch is lighter. It's gonna accelerate faster. Okay. If, um, you're dealing with fairly high, like, spring snow conditions, super hard, super smooth, super fast- Mm-hmm. Yeah... um, 53:18 having a little bit lighter setup I can see being a bigger advantage than the little bit lower rolling resistance you'd get from a 27.5 setup. Okay. You know? But in general, I mean, I don't... 53:31 I think on the race course, 27.5 is definitely the better option. Okay. And w- so, [laughs] um- [laughs]... 53:41 I ended up writing up a potential article for fatbike.com that I'm still not sure 100% if I wanna end up publishing. Okay. 53:48 Because what I d- what, when you look back at that interview we ended up doing with the Trek engineers- Right... and Travis Brown- Yeah... um, they referenced a bunch of documents. 53:58 W- uh, one of them is this book called Bicycle Science. Yeah. 54:02 And then Bicycle Science is basically a summary of all the science that, you know, all the engineering principles and stuff like that that they, that this one professor from MIT could end up kinda pulling out of a variety of different sources. 54:17 And there's one key chapter in there where they talk about the rolling resistance of different wheels and tire sizes and things like that. And they kind of get into this, you know, what the mathematical models say. 54:32 And that's not 100% applicable to this, but there's a lot of generalities that you can take out of all that science and apply to the fat bike world. The thing, though, is that the fat bike world is so varied and so-... 54:46 changing from day to day, and even hour to hour, that it's like, it's really hard to end up making really broad generalizations. However, 54:55 what you can say is, bigger diameter rolls with lower rolling resistance, and that is especially... And that's, that's, that's on a hard surface for sure. 55:04 You know, it's like, if you look at, I guess, kind of, and I'm gonna make this a bit stronger statement in a second, but if you look at what ended up happening, like, in the time trial world and stuff like that, you know, there was a bunch of bikes in the, like, the '90s and '80s and stuff where they were making, like, little wheels on them and stuff like that. 55:20 Um, and they went away from that and went back up to regular full-size 700C wheels because those 700C wheels rolled with lower rolling resistance than the smaller diameter wheels did. Okay. Um, 55:35 they've also started to find if, if you're on rough surfaces, wider, it rolls faster than narrow. [lips smack] Right. We've talked about this before. You know, if we're... 55:44 And, and you'll also lowering the pressure because you- Right... you know, the suspension losses and stuff like that. Sure. So there's some definitive science saying a couple of things like this. 55:52 Now, to kind of go a step further th- with this diameter thing, you know, like, like I said, we know on a hard surface a bigger diameter rolls with less rolling resistance than a smaller diameter. 56:05 On soft surfaces, it's even more so. Why? 56:10 Because what happens is your contact patch changes shape, and like, I actually looked at, like, all the math and stuff on this and stuff, and I was like, "Oh, oh, okay," you know? 56:20 And like, you look at how it, how it relates, you know, proportionally, like what the mathematical equation is. Okay. But bottom line is, um, there's, there's a fairly significant difference. 56:32 Like, the, the way Trek stated it, that you can more efficiently gain float by diameter than you can by width- Okay... is an entirely accurate and a really, really good way of putting it. Okay. So, um, 56:47 y- you can k- the w- w- enough math dork stuff. Let's set that aside. Okay. All right. So where, where I've noticed it is on the trail when you're breaking trail. Okay. Keep going. 56:59 So, so if I have got these Van Halegas, which are, like, you know, 3.8 inches wide- Right... I can 57:07 basically go through way deeper, way gnarlier, you know, fresh powder conditions and, like, where I'm breaking trail- Yeah... way easier than I would be otherwise. And this is... 57:18 You know, I'm gonna delve back into math dorkitude, but like, hopefully these are terms that people kind of understand. 57:24 So let's say you're breaking trail, and, you know, let's start talking numbers here to kind of bring it back to this 4.5%, provide some context. So let's say you're breaking trail and putting out 200 watts. 57:39 And in this instance, just as a theoretical, let's say it takes about 150 watts to compress the snow, and you're riding up a hill. So you got 50 watts going into basically powering you up the hill, ch- changing your, uh, 57:57 kinetic energy into potential energy, to use the, the physics term for it. So let's say that you end up having a 5% narrower, and I'm just gonna use 5% instead of 4.5% 'cause it's easier to work with math-wise. 58:10 So let's say we have a 5% narrower and longer contact patch. So everything else is the same, you just are basically compressing a narrower path. So a 5% decrease in the amount of snow you're compressing. 58:26 So if you decrease that 150 watts that it takes to compress the snow down by 5%, that'll go down to 142.5 watts. 58:39 And now if you're still putting out 200 watts total, you'll have 57.5 watts to move you forward, so, or to climb the hill. 58:49 So in other words, your power ended up going from 50 watts to move you up the hill up to 57.5, which is a 15% increase in the amount of power to take you up the hill, which is a significant amount. 59:02 It's a lot more than just, you know, the 4.55% whatever, um, amount of the change in the contact patch. That's the one place where I really notice that we've seen 59:16 a sizable difference going with a, a narrower, longer contact patch. But yeah, so in those kind of conditions it can make, 59:24 having the narrower, having an either a narrower tire or having the same amount of float, you know, or in a more efficient package, in a narrower package, can make a very significant difference on if you can make it up a hill or not. 59:35 Because a wider diameter tire compa- has a bigger print. It has a, a narrower and more elongated print. More elongated. Yeah. So I mean, this- Okay... 59:47 I don't think this physically is a correct way of visualizing it, but it's like, it's almost like you've got more of your tire drafting, you know- More-... like the, the path- More trail almost... it makes. 59:58 Yeah, exactly. Yeah. You know, it's like... 59:59 And they, I tend to think of drafting just 'cause of, you know, road cycling and stuff like that, where you get more people, you can kind of like suck off the person, but- Stop right there. Yes. Yes. [laughs] Yeah. 1:00:08 I was not going the right way. Right, right. But, you know- Like you're sucking your own wheel. 1:00:12 [laughs] Um, but it's just having a narrower, you know, pa- you know, patch makes a big difference as far as the amount of effort it takes to break trail. 1:00:24 So is that why there's a better, a larger sweet spot for those diameter tires? Correct. Okay. That's, that, that is where I would argue that I feel like the sweet spot's bigger. 1:00:33 In those kind of conditions, like when you're breaking trail, going uphill- Okay... you're barely able to make it, it can be really beneficial. 1:00:39 But the flip side of that coin, where the 27.5 is not as beneficial, is that, um, 1:00:46 having a narrow contact patch means that-You know, like the, a major part of like when you're right at the edge of traction going up a hill- Mm-hmm... is your balance. Oh, yeah. 1:00:57 And keeping your weight above that contact patch. Mm-hmm. As long as you keep your center of gravity above that contact patch, you're not gonna fall over. So the wider the tire, the more stable it is. Oh, there it is. 1:01:10 Yeah, yeah, okay. Gotcha. So if you have this really narrow contact patch, you might be able to get up the hill very efficiently as far as your power to weight ratio and all those other kind of rigamarole, but 1:01:19 you're going to have to have your technique just flipping dialed- Yeah... to be able to keep your weight over the contact patch. So that's the thing that I've noticed. 1:01:27 Like, and I've noticed it a lot in previous years as tires have gotten wider in the 26-inch world. I'm like, "Oh man, this thing is like super forgiving," you know? [laughs] Yeah, yeah. 1:01:34 It's like I could be like, you know, brapping all over the place. Right, right. You know, the rear wheel can just be like getting in ruts- Yeah... and sliding sideways. 1:01:40 [laughs] And you know, it's like I can just keep on going. It's like- I'm on a stand-up paddleboard going down this trail. Yeah, yeah. 1:01:45 You know, whereas like when I'm on the 27.5 and, you know, especially with these 3.8-inch tires- Sure... which are pretty narrow, it's like it's very, very, very sensitive. 1:01:52 You know, it's like, so if the bike ki- gets thrown off a little bit, it's, it's really easy for me to screw up and then have to put a foot down. So it's nowhere near as forgiving in those conditions. Okay. 1:02:03 Although it is more efficient and you can get up some stuff, like if you nail it, you can get up stuff that you wouldn't be able to necessarily otherwise on, you know, the same width tire or whatever, or maybe a slightly narrower tire or- Gotcha... 1:02:14 slightly wider tire with the 26. So there, there's, there's a lot of pros and cons, you know, going both ways, and it's like I think there's some conditions where the 27.5 is really significant. Okay. 1:02:28 Well, let's, let's put this one to rest then. Or, or maybe, maybe you've got more math to share with us [laughs] about, uh, about how the 27... It's not 27 and a half. 27-inch tire is- [laughs] You know? 1:02:42 I, I think what I need to do is like basically publish this article that I talked about- Yeah... where it just gets into the math dorkitude. Yeah. And it, it's, it's, it makes 1:02:54 definitive statements about stuff that you can't really make definitive statements about- Right... 1:02:57 because it's math instead of what actually happens in snow with fat bikes and different tire pressures and all sorts of other craziness. Wow. So- Okay. Yeah. 1:03:07 We've got a couple other things to talk about after this brief- Yeah, let's, let's take another quick break, um, and then we'll wrap it up with, oh, gosh- Some product stuff and like- Yeah, more tires... 1:03:17 University of, yeah, University of Alaska. Yeah, more tires. Woo-hoo. [laughs] And there ain't no one but me to pay the rent. And there ain't no one but me to pay the rent. 1:03:33 And we're back for the finale of 36, um, now that we don't have to talk about wheel size anymore. 1:03:40 [laughs] Um, but an interesting, uh, test about the, how, how does your hub perform, how does, how much does the hub slow you down? [laughs] So they, this is actually kind of interesting when you talk about numbers. 1:03:54 So University of Alaska tested a variety of different fat bike hubs at different temperatures to find out how much drag there was in them. Okay. And they, they had a really nice rigorous way of testing it. 1:04:07 They've so far published their results for, um, rear hub drag at 15 degrees. They do it in two different ways. They do it coasting, they do it like- Pedaling. Yep. 1:04:17 So they, you know, they totally covered all the different scenarios and, you know, that's really sound. And this was published by, um, Fatback. It's on their website, on their blog. Yeah. 1:04:29 Um, of course, it comes out very favorably for Fatback. Um- Mm-hmm... but it's still enlightening. Um- Yeah... and I think it, and it, I do think it's valid information. Um, is, is it a considerable amount? 1:04:44 I mean, how many- So-... watts we talking? So okay, going back to numbers and watts and stuff- Right... like that, like your average rider, if they're riding fairly hard, is gonna put out, you know, 200-ish watts. Okay. 1:04:55 And if you look at the range of this, like, um- 100 of that is for compacting snow and another 100 is for forward motion. [laughs] Well, but so, okay, so you wanna talk about your 5% difference? Yeah, okay. 1:05:07 We got the 5% difference right here. Right. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. [laughs] So if you look at like when coasting, the difference between like the Fatback, you know, hub and, um, the 9- 907... 1:05:18 07, you're talking over five, um, you know, five watts. Right. So they, okay, if you, if you put out 200 watts, that's not 5%. That's 2.5%, but that's- Yeah... halfway there. Right. 1:05:28 Um, and if you look at the difference, you know, when you're pedaling, it ended up being almost 7% difference, or excuse me, a 3.5% difference. It's seven watt difference. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. 1:05:39 So you know, it's like, you know, you choose the wrong hub and you're almost at the same difference as your wheel size change. [laughs] So keep that in mind. There you go. 1:05:46 But, but so they had some really, really good numbers, and this was really interesting data. And, you know, um, I mean, I don't know how much they wore these things in and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Sure. 1:05:57 I haven't read up into all those kind of details. I don't know if the details are available, but they're supposed to be having another test coming out where they test it at negative 20 degrees Fahrenheit. 1:06:07 I think it was Fahrenheit, wasn't it? Uh, yeah. Yep. Okay. Um, which will be interesting, and my guess is it's gonna basically take this trend and it's gonna, you know, extend it. Okay. Yeah. 1:06:19 It, it was good stuff to check out. Yeah. So yeah, it's some interesting stuff for you geeks out there. Right. Right. Um, another thing that I was really stoked about, um, this, the, totally different, XTR pedals. 1:06:33 Those, those are my favorite pedals. Okay. Um, I've had really, really good success with them. Um, and you can now get them with three millimeter shorter spindles. O- okay, so- So fat bikes- Q factor... 1:06:45 tend to have really wide cranks. Okay. That bothers some people. Okay.So, you know, the... If, if you're one of the people out there who has knee problems with a fat stance setup- Yeah... you can go with narrower pedals. 1:06:57 Okay. So if you look at, like, you know, there's... You can take this to extremes. So, like, the Otso or the, um, the Rocky Mountain, the... They made a Suzy Q. Yeah. Both of those are narrower Q factor cranks. Mm-hmm. 1:07:11 So, like, if you end up putting these pedals on, you'd get closer to- Oh... like a normal mountain bike stance. Okay. 1:07:17 Or if you're on your regular fat bike, you put these on, you basically get the equivalent of going to the Otso or the Suzy Q, but you're on your regular fat bike. Huh. You know? 1:07:28 So it, it's a way to, like, um, get the biomechanics of your bike to fit you better. Just for XTR? Yeah, just... 1:07:35 That's the specialized one, but if I remember right, I know Speedplay, they've had a variety of spindle lengths. Um- And the ISSI does. I think all theirs are longer. I don't think they go shorter. Oh. I might be wrong. 1:07:49 They might have a shorter- Oh, you might make them... You can get the longer ones. Yeah, they might have a sh- They're not shorter than standard... yeah, they might have a shorter... 1:07:55 Like, they might have one that's a little bit shorter. Okay. I know, um, Speedplay- Yeah... or not Speedplay. Um, uh, Crank Brothers. Okay. 1:08:02 Uh, with the Egg Beaters, the, the Ti spindles I know are three millimeters shorter than the still, the steel ones. I think they might make a shorter steel spindle too. Okay. 1:08:11 So that's another one where you can kind of tweak that stance if, you know, the wide cranks are bothering you. So two wasn't enough and four was too much? [laughs] Uh, uh, just three because- I don't know... 1:08:23 like Babe Ruth or something? I- I- Okay... when, when it comes to pedal spindles, you're dealing with... It's very hard to make them much shorter. Okay. You just, you don't have a lot of clearance and stuff like that. 1:08:31 Yeah. So I think they, like, basically did as much as they could without really altering the design. Yeah. I wonder how much, then, I'm gonna rub my crank arm with the shorter ones already. I mean... 1:08:40 Are you talking about, like, where your shoe rubs- Yeah... the crank arm? Where my shoe rubs- Yeah... against it. That's... So yeah, that's... I do the same thing, but- Yeah... 1:08:46 there, there's other people that, you know, it's just the opposite, and their heels are kind of canning out a little more, and- Gotcha... those a lot of the times are the people that like a narrower stance. 1:08:54 I didn't know you were so stoked about the shorter spindle. I thought you were gonna be so- Oh, no, it's, it's-... super stoked about the last part of the video... it's not for me. It's just... I think that's... It... 1:09:01 I think that is a thing that bike, you know, pedal manufacturers should be doing. Okay. I think there, there's enough vari- To accommodate going wider. Yeah. I mean- Yeah... 1:09:11 there's enough variation in different r- you know, you know, basic body styles- Yeah, yeah, yeah... that, that is, that is a really easy way to change for the positive somebody's riding experience. Okay. 1:09:22 And having a company offer that I think is, it's, it's noteworthy. Cool. Cool. They get a gold star. Gotcha. Well, let's end this thing with one of our favorite tire companies then. [laughs] Let's talk more tires. 1:09:35 Yeah, so- What's going on with Maxxis? Um, so I ended up seeing a copy of the 2019 Maxxis tire catalog. Oh. [laughs] Geez. [laughs] And you went to work the next day? Yeah, exactly. Holy cow. 1:09:50 Yeah, so what is really rad is they have a- That's... That is hilarious. [laughs] I happen to see the catalog. No, but what's cool about this is that, um, I've been really excited about... 1:10:03 And this doesn't have anything to do with fat biking. This is kind of plus on the edge. Um, 29 by 2.6, I really have liked that tire size. Um- Okay, yeah. Yeah... that's what I rode a, a ton this summer. Right. 1:10:15 And, um, my... Probably one of my all-time most favoritest ever tires. Like, like, there's been a couple tires that I, like- Most favoritest ever... will ride for, like, a decade. Okay. 1:10:26 And I'm just like, "These tires are awesome." And I, I kind of, like, think the, the, uh, Maxxis Rekon 2.6, 29 by 2.6- Yeah... is... That's one of those tires. 1:10:35 It's like I just absolutely love that tire, and it's worked really well, um, for me over the last, like, year and a half or whatever. 1:10:41 And Maxxis is now going to start making a bunch of other tires in that same ca- uh, casing size. Okay. So the Ikon- Yeah... that was a tire that I really wanted to get in 2.6. 1:10:51 Like, run an Ikon 2.6 on the rear and then a Rekon on the front, that will be a really, really, really sweet setup if your bike will fit it. [laughs] They're making all kinds of 2.6s now. Yeah. 1:11:03 So, you know, so the dork-out on casings, like the Ikon 29 by 2.6 comes in two different, like, sort of styles: a 60 TPI dual compound and 120, uh, TPI triple compound. Okay. So kind of a, a... 1:11:19 One model will come on stock bikes, and the other one will be the chi-chi one that, like, rolls really well. A little bit lower rolling resistance, like a little higher performance rubber compound. All right. 1:11:29 The Rekon, this is one of the things that they made it better. Yeah. So they, they used to only have those two options, like the 60 TPI dual compound and then the 120 TPI triple compound. Triple. 1:11:40 But now they added another one. They've added a third casing, and it's their EXO Plus. Okay. Which, um, I... 1:11:49 Maxxis tires, like with their EXO casing, is okay, but it's, like, you'll still slice sidewalls if you're- Okay... if you're in a area that's really, you know, tough on tires. 1:12:00 So what this does is it adds a whole nother layer. It's, it's called their, um, I think it's, like, Silk Worm. Silk Shield. Silk Shield. That's what it was. 1:12:08 Um, and what it does is that goes from bead to bead, and then you still have the EXO on the sidewalls. So it basically reinforced the entire casing, sidewalls and under the tread. And under the tread. Yeah. So 1:12:21 that is a... I think that's a pretty significant thing for adding to the tire durability, but it doesn't take away that much from the suppleness. Yeah. It doesn't, you know- Okay... doesn't add a ton of weight. 1:12:30 You know, it's like, it's one of those things where it makes it just that little bit more durable, which is really handy. This is, um, in response to consumer maybe? I think, I think- That-... 1:12:42 most people are, like, getting on this 2.6 inch side and being like, "This is rad." Okay. This is, you know... Like, I think I've talked about tire sweet spots. Yeah, yeah. 1:12:50 [laughs] You know, I think this kind of, like, really bridges that gap between a plus tire- Yeah... and a regular tire. Okay. And it, it doesn't suck anywhere, and it works-Pretty darn good and a big wide range. 1:13:01 Yeah, it fits on all kinds of rims. Yeah, and it, it- Doesn't it? Well- It changes shape, but- All, all of these are designed around the quote unquote wide trail, which is what the kinda modern- Oh, okay... 1:13:10 bikes are, you know, like a 30 millimeter, 35 millimeter rim. Okay. Um, that's what I've run, either a 30 or a 35, and it's worked really well on both. Can you run them on smaller? You could. Okay. 1:13:21 But it's gonna get a little bit floppier. Yeah. Um, like when you get in really hard, grippy conditions. Okay, okay. So it's not ideal. 1:13:28 I mean, they're really designed shape-wise and everything to go on a little bit wider rim. Okay. But I mean, these are tires for modern bikes- Okay... for lack of a better way of putting it. I gotcha, okay. 1:13:37 You know, like almost any bike that was designed and released this year, th- this was its first kinda like frame release model year- Yeah... is gonna be able to fit a 2.6 inch tire. 1:13:47 There, there's a few like, like, uh, Yetis don't and a couple other things like that. 1:13:52 There's a couple notable exceptions, but most bikes fit 2.6 inch by 29 inch tires if it's gonna sit, fit a 29 because there's all these different options. So we got an additional casing option with the Rekon. 1:14:05 We got the Forekaster, which is a really good wet weather tire, very versatile. Um, that's gonna come in the two styles, kinda like the 60 TPI dual compound, the 120 TPI triple compound, and then the Minions, yes. 1:14:20 You can downhill with these tires now. Well, I wouldn't quite call this downhill. This is more in the trail category- Okay... with the way these things are built because- Yeah... the- Trail is downhill for me [laughs]. 1:14:30 [laughs] Um, the Minions are like just a, such a great tire. Yeah. And if you look at, like they have offered the 29 by three inch- Yeah... which I've, I've ridden. 1:14:41 I've got the, uh, uh, DHF and I love that for a front tire, but I'd like to have something just a little bit smaller. Yeah. Like I wanted to have that 26 or 28, and now they finally are offering it. Gotcha. 1:14:52 And they do it in the, you know, the 60 TPI EXO casing. They do it with a dual compound. 1:14:58 Um, then they ended up doing it with 120 TPI EXO casing with triple compound, and then they offer it with the EXO Plus, so kind of a much more burly triple compound setup. 1:15:11 So th- that's, like they basically came out swinging with the Minion. The Minion is such a rad tire. It's, I'm just super stoked. I'm probably gonna end up getting a pair of those Minions. 1:15:21 [laughs] And I'm gonna absolutely love it. I can't believe their lineup of tires. It's not only types of tires, but widths of tires and- Oh... casing selections and- They've, they've got so many SKUs. 1:15:35 It's like they've got so many variations on every tire. Yeah. But this is like basically checking all the boxes for the right trends as far as what people have been kinda really digging. Yeah. 1:15:45 Yeah, and I'm, I'm just super stoked to end up seeing this 'cause th- the, these were, there's a couple tires on here I would have bought hands down this year if I coulda got them, and they are now offering them. Gotcha. 1:15:56 So. All good information, but not useful until springtime when the snow leaves. I don't know. A lot of times with these Maxxis tires, they start rolling in here pretty soon. Oh, really? 1:16:05 Yeah, and it, you know, and like a Forekaster in a 2.6, ho ho. Really? That would be a sweet tire for, you know, like North Carolina. Okay. You know, like Western North Carolina and stuff like that- Gotcha... 1:16:15 over the next little bit because that tire would actually work pretty darn good in the snow. It'd work pretty darn good in the wet leaves. I mean, that would just be a rad setup. Nice. 1:16:25 Yeah, and even same with the Minion. It's like the Minion would be pretty darn rad for that setup too. Cool. Yeah. All right. So good things coming. Yeah, and that's s- show 36. 1:16:36 [laughs] Phew, another short one, as planned. [laughs] As, as always scheduled. Um, I think we hit everything, but, uh, we'll be back after the new year. 1:16:47 Hopefully this, I don't know when this is gonna come out, but we'll see what happens. Hopefully, yeah, pretty quick. Yeah. I'm gonna try to do a turnaround on the- Oh, yeah... on the editing. 1:16:54 But, uh, we will talk, next podcast will be midwinter. Yes. Hopefully. Oh, let's hope. I hope. So we can talk midwinter conditions- One moment here... and midwinter 27- And-... or 26... one quick plug. Yeah. 1:17:08 Um- Oh, yeah. We got a race. Yeah, we got a race that people need to come to. Yeah. It's gonna be awesome. January 26th? I believe so, yeah. The Fire Tower Big M, or is it the Big M Fire Tower? I don't know. 1:17:22 It's part of the Great Lakes Fat Bike Series. Yep. Um, we'll probably, man, we should try to do a plug with, with FatBike.com or something. Um, get that up. We're gonna put some more information out there. 1:17:31 Yeah, there'll be more information. But the bottom line is we've got a really good, like 18 mile loop of just like killer single track. 1:17:38 It's got good hills and stuff like that, and we're gonna set it up so that, like if you do the long race, you know, the pros are gonna finish in two and a half to three hours. 1:17:48 And, you know, Joe Blow, you know, depending on where you're at, it could end up being three hours, could be four hours. There's gonna be a really, really, really, really, really good aid station out there. 1:17:58 There is gonna be a good aid station out there. Um, and then we're gonna have a shorter version, which, you know, will be more like for most people like an hour and a half, two hours. Yeah. 1:18:07 So, um, we, regardless of what's going on with snow, we should be able to end up having a really good course, and it should be really rad riding, um, so you should come out. January 26th, Wellston, Michigan, Big M. 1:18:22 Um, more details to come. Yep. Uh, thanks for listening everybody. Um, I know that we're not the most, uh, s- uh, scheduled pers- people- [laughs]... 1:18:31 in the world, but every, it's good to know that people are waiting for another Fat Camp to come out, so we appreciate listeners. Shoot us, listening to us. Shoot us an email. Check us out on Instagram. 1:18:42 Um, shoot, give us a phone call. No, just kidding [laughs]. Thanks for talking, Ken. A lot of good information, and we'll see you next time. [rock music] Cheers. Live your life out on the street now. 1:18:54 Live your life out on the corner. Live your life until a corner in a car. Thank you for listening. 1:19:04 The music we are using on today's show is the band The Fast Set and their song Straight and Narrow, which is on the Free Mu- Music Archive. You can find all our shows at fat-bike.com, including notes for today's show. 1:19:19 And there ain't no one but me to pay the rent. And there ain't no one but me to pay the rent. And there ain't no one but me to pay the rent
