Transcript 0:00 [singing] I really love you, Fati, Fati, Fati, Fati, Fati. 0:18 I really- Welcome to Fat Camp Show number 37. Fatbike.com presents Fat Camp, a more or less monthly podcast covering different technical aspects of fat and plus bikes. 0:28 Look for all our shows at fat-bike.com/radio or subscribe to our feed on iTunes. [singing] I really love you, Fati, Fati, Fati, Fati, Fati. I really want you, Fati, Fati, Fati, Fati, Fati. 0:47 I love to Fati when- Good morning, good day, good evening, folks, and welcome to Fat Camp Podcast number 37, here in the heart of winter. Um- Kind of. Yeah, ex- [laughs] Kind of, yeah, exactly. 1:03 Um- I told you, you were gonna go into the red. You're louder now. Oh, really? Yep, sorry. All right. We were, we were trying to tune in Andy's mic, and I was telling him- The other was- "Nope, this isn't Andy. 1:12 This is normal Andy" It was a cackle laugh. It was a cackle laugh, that's all it was. Yeah, the cackle laugh, man. Yeah, exactly. Uh, yeah, the Fat Camp, uh, podcast number 37. Who'd have known? Who'd have thunk? 1:22 Who'd have wondered? Um, we've got an agenda like we usually do. Yep. And, um, we're gonna probably stick right to the agenda, and it'll be a nice half-hour morning commute for you, you know, what it is- No, exactly. 1:33 We like to keep it short. Right. Short and concise. Exactly. Um, by the way, we appreciate everyone getting a hold of us. Uh, evidently 37 was quite the hit. Um- [laughs] We got some emails. 1:44 If you want to email in the e- ah, bluh bluh bluh. If you want to email us, uh, that's, uh, fatcamppodcasters- Plural That's plural, of course, @gmail.com. 1:55 Um, and then you can also check us out on the Instagram at fatcamppodcaster. I think it is plural on the Instagram too. I believe so. Yeah, someone... Who the hell took Fat Camp Podcast in front of us? 2:07 [laughs] What the heck? I gotta check that out. Squatting on our name, man. Jeez, oh, Pete. You know, I ne- I need to search that. Um, but let's talk about what's going on here. 2:16 Um- Yeah, so- This winter- What have you been up to, Andy? I've been riding my bike. Excellent. Um, I have been, um, I'm, I'm testing... 2:26 A-actually I am testing, 'cause probably the, the product spotlight, it's already been out, um, the, m- uh, RSD version four of the Mayor. Yep. It comes with wide handlebars, let me tell you that. [laughs] Hey. Mr. 2:40 Broken Finger. Yeah. Um, as, as, um, diagnosed by our friend Dan. Dan's in the house tonight. Say hi, Dan. Hello. All right, that's all I got from him. Hello, Dan. 2:49 He's, he's actually being a stud boy right now and inserting studs into the Narwhal. Um- Yep, we're putting him to work He diagnosed, he diagnosed me as, uh, the tip of my pinky is broken. So anyway, um, riding my bike, 3:04 praying, hoping, thinking- [laughs]... for snow. Snow dance, man. Yeah, it's ridiculous. We've, we've had a, a really, really light snow year. Like super light. Yeah, I think- Ridiculous... 3:16 I, I looked the other day at our county road commission publishes stats. Right. And, like, uh, we had 32 inches of snow so far this winter. Yeah, that's it. And last year we had, like, I think it was 117. 3:30 Yeah, we had over 100 by now, same- Yeah... yep. So our winters kind of sucked. Yeah, which has allowed for kind of crazy conditions. But, I mean, I shouldn't say that. 3:38 I shouldn't say that at all, 'cause we've had really good snow riding. It's just, like, you know, the skiing's kind of sucked. We haven't had any deep powder- Right... or very little deep powder riding. Yeah. 3:47 Um- No, the riding has been good. It has. You know? It's actually been really good. It's like- Yeah... 3:50 perpetual spring snow, and then you get, like, a deep winter day, and then it's, like, for, you know, spring snow for a couple weeks. [laughs] Right. It's been fun. We've been, we've been riding. 3:59 We put on a race, you know. That was fun. Um- Well, we're going to as, as of recording this We're going to. It's gonna come out. Yeah, exactly. 4:06 We got this race coming up, but it, it'll be long gone by the time this is recorded. But that wa- that, that's, uh, something on the horizon. Um, I don't know. I've been... I'm testing this bike. That's what I'm doing. 4:19 Well, yeah, yeah. See, I've been riding a bunch. Um- You've been doing crazy stuff. I don't know about crazy stuff, but I've been playing around with 27.5 wheels. I got a new wheel set. 4:30 I got one of the, the Head 27.5 fat bike setups. Um- Oh, yeah... 4:37 they're, I don't remember what they're, the, you know, the He- the Head, uh, hubs, and I think these are, like, either DT Revolutions or Supreme, whatever their equivalent is, spokes. 4:49 So a really nice light wheel set, but it's kind of been pissing me off. Yeah, what's going on with that? [laughs] So- 'Cause it's a Head wheel set, you know? 4:56 I, I don't, I don't wanna go down too much of a rabbit hole 'cause- No, go a- no... but I'm gonna rant a little bit. Right. Um- Go into the weeds. I like that... 27.5 fat, um, 5:07 does not have their, sorry Chad, their shit together enough- [laughs]... when it comes to, uh, bead diameter spec. And- What do you mean? What do you mean? What do you mean? 5:16 So, um, the Heads run a little bit small, so I think that's a, that's a contributing factor. And then the tire manufacturers, there's a fair amount of variation in how big the diameter is of the bead of the tires. 5:34 So, you know, that, that directly influence how easy it is to end up going tubeless. Oh. So in the case of these Head wheels, what I've found is the Head wheels are a little on the small side. Okay. 5:46 Terrene tires are a little on the big side. I, word on the street, haven't tried it, um, Maxxis tires, also a little on the big side. Okay. Uh, Bontrager is on the smaller side. 5:57 Um, the 45NRTH seems to be somewhere in between, closer to the Bontrager than it is to the Terrene, based upon my experience. So-You, how'd you figure this out? You rolled the tire or something? 6:09 Well, okay, so, um, I've, I was trying to put the 4.5 inch by 20- like the 27/5 by 4.5 inch cake eaters on these Head wheels. Okay. 6:22 And I initially tried and could not even come close to getting them like set up tubeless without a tube first. Okay. So, um- Just too loose. Yeah, e- exactly. Yeah. And I, I followed all the instructions. 6:35 Like Head has got this like, like kind of like poster sized, I think they call it the Bam-O-Matic sheet or something like that- Nice... 6:43 where they kind of basically lead you through how you're supposed to end up setting all this stuff up, um, tubeless. And like, "If your tire's a little too loose, this is what you do, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah." Okay. 6:52 So, um, uh, out of the box, you know, tried using like they've got these little rubber band things that fill in one of the wells, put those in there, nada. Tried two rubber bands, nada. Um, uh, tried a different tire. 7:09 I was just... I think it was more by happenstance than anything else. 7:12 I was able to end up getting it to seat, because these tires, like if you flop them around, like they will literally go like, like, like brand-new tire, brand-new rim, so, you know, nothing's worn out or- Mm-hmm... 7:25 anything like that stretched. Um, the tire would literally like kind of like flop completely around the bead into the right place. Oh, really? Yeah. You know, normally like, you know- Yeah... 7:35 you hear the, like the, you know, the super loud snap when- Sure... the, the tubeless goes? No. Okay. These things would like, just like sit down in the right spot. Oh. 7:43 So I was like, "Oh my God, these things are super loose." But somehow it, uh, I got one to end up going. Okay. Um, the other one I tried for a couple hours to try to figure out different ways to get it to go. 7:53 So then I started building up the rim bed, and I did, uh, two wraps of thinner like Stans tape right in the bead area to try to increase the, the diameter. Still didn't end up working. 8:06 Um, and then this is me even like doing things like putting it in a tube to try to end up getting the, the beads to seat, then I take the tube out. 8:13 Like, it, it was so loose even after the two wraps of Stans on both sides, the bead would come undone from both sides no matter what I did. I tried- Even after jacking the tube in there? Yeah. Tube in there. 8:24 I get them both to, quote-unquote, "seat," and then- Oh, wow... 8:27 like you just, you just let air out, and it's like no matter what I tried, and I think I, I did it three times, I still couldn't even get like one side to stay locked in. Oh, wow. 8:35 So then I ended up going a full wrap, double- Okay... of that, and that worked for a few rides until the bead stretched, and then the tire ended up, uh, ba- e- I, I wouldn't describe it as burping. 8:51 It's like I think what it did was it, I think I braked too hard or something like that, and it spun on the rim- Oh... because I had sealant like consistently the entire way around it. Oh. So that was one wheel. 9:02 That was the one that I had fully taped up. Okay. And then the next ride I ended up doing, the other one that just happened to like pop into place and stuff like that, that ended up spinning on an uphill, uh- Oh, okay... 9:13 going up to Reindeer Hill. That's the one. Yeah. Yeah. That, it spun actually on the rim, and, uh, um, you know, it came undone that way. So that's really kind of annoying. Yeah. 9:27 That's something that, um, QC will take care of you think? I think it's gonna settle out. I don't know necessarily how, 9:35 but, um, I really hope 27/5 or ex- yeah, yeah, 27/5, um, fat tire manufacturers get more consistent with their bead s- you know. And, and you're... 9:48 There was kind of a period that was similar in mountain bike, traditional mountain bike tire period where they kind of went through that. Mm-hmm. 9:55 Um, fat tightened up a lot, but, you know, initially everything wasn't tubeless, and then it kind of had a period there was this, this liminal thing where they weren't, quote-unquote, "tubeless rated." Mm-hmm. 10:04 And then they were... It's like we're kind of seeing the same growing pains, but they have a tubeless label [laughs] on everything, and it's not tubeless ready. We can, by the way, we can call them 27. Yes, I agree. 10:18 Okay. I like 27 much more. I think we should just call them 27. Um, we are going- So, I'm sorry. Okay, yeah. I was, that was me gritching about tires and stuff. No, that's, that's- So, you know, it's-... 10:26 what's been going on in your life, you know, for the last, you know, three or four weeks Well, but it w- so I've been riding a bunch. Yeah. Um, kind of getting in shape for Arizona Trail- Yeah... 10:33 and trying to do some longer rides and stuff like that. Um, so that's been a lot of fun. But I've been playing with tires. But I also learned that I fricking hate tubes. Really? Oh my God, do tubes suck. 10:48 Dan, you hate tubes? Yeah, tube suck. Okay, so he, he's a, he's not a tube fan as well. [laughs] Okay. Uh, no, tubes are horrible. I d- I, I haven't ridden tubes for a couple years. Yeah. And it literally, like, 11:03 I mean, it's like having your tire pressure wrong or any of these other kind of things where it's like all of a sudden, you know, you can, you can go on like the group ride where everybody's kind of evenly matched to, you know, doing just fine to getting your like ass handed to you. 11:17 Yeah. And it's just a fricking tube. You get your ass handed to you. No, I mean, that's, that's- Yeah... I mean, that's a big difference. And I sh- you know, and if it- Why, wh- you had mentioned before, and 11:29 mind you, this is a podcast about technical aspects of fat and plus bikes where Ken knows way more than I do, and so I play the role of derp-de-derp. Why do tubes create more rolling resistance? 11:43 It's 'cause of the friction between the tube and the tire. I thought the tube would just be smashed up against the tire. Uh, yes and no. I mean, I, I don't know the exact physics of this. Mm-hmm. 11:56 However- Just make it up. Well, no, but it, it's... Okay, so just kind of supposing some of this things. Okay. Like, um, 12:06 what they found is the thinner the tube-You know, the lower the rolling resistance Okay So you can also lower the rolling resistance, if I remember right, by putting like talcum powder and stuff in between the two, so the, the interface between the two will... 12:17 They'll slip a little bit more. Okay. But like, um, one of the things I've noticed a bunch lately is like I'm using kinda undersized tubes 'cause they're a lot lighter. 'Cause it's like if I use... 12:26 I mean, there's literally like a 12-ounce difference between two of the different tubes I have- TOOBs weigh a shit ton. Yeah, yeah. So, [laughs] 12:36 so I'm using an undersized tube, so it takes a fair amount of pressure until it's big enough diameter to actually like contact the rubber in all spots. 12:44 Okay So, you know, just like the, the actual pressure within the tube is, 12:49 let's say, I, you know, I'm running it at, I don't know, six PSI or something like that, but the, the, the pressure that the tube presses on the tire casing is considerably lower because you actually have got a stretching motion of the, the tube. 13:02 So like as that tire flexes and stuff like that, let's say there's only like two PSI or three PSI between the tube and the tire casing, so those two things can kind of shear against each other. 13:13 And you know how like grippy rubber is- Yeah... and stuff like that. Yeah, yeah. Or just, and maybe not even shear, maybe not... 13:18 You know, it's just, it's just enough that, you know, the two materials kinda deform and, you know, you, you get this frictional barrier, and it's like it just, you know, heats up. 13:28 Oop, stud boy just did a toss and a stutter on. Stud boy just dropped his stuff. Um- Is, is that dependent upon the toroidal shape of the tire? Uh, y- yes, it is. There's... Yeah, it's, it's dependent on a lot of stuff. 13:40 I gotcha. So I, I... Once again, I'm kinda going off into the weeds. Yeah. I, I think- No, but the value of tubeless. This is all 'cause you said this was gonna be our shortest podcast ever. Right, shortest podcast ever. 13:50 We haven't even gotten into the- Yeah... itemized list yet. So, you know, so that's another thing, and I, I... This, the... I feel like this is me like the gritching podcast. No. [laughs] But, um, uh- No, it's fine. 14:01 It's fine. Yeah. You know, no, but so- You know, 27, 27 needs to work its way, you know, like- No, yeah, it's like I, I've been riding a lot and doing that... pimp sock. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, so. Yeah, yeah. 14:09 I, I've been clocking a lot of miles. Been trying a lot of stuff. And they're not gonna make angle sets anymore. Arr. Yeah, dude. [laughs] Get off my lawn, kids. All right, let's take a quick break. 14:16 We'll refill- [upbeat music] I really love you, fatty fat... and we'll be right back, folks. I really love you, fatty fat. Fatty, fatty, fatty, fatty. I really want you, fatty fat. Fatty, fatty, fatty, fatty. 14:31 I love your fatty when you drop off the bucket. I love your fatty when the shit from your body. I love your fatty when you drop off the bucket. I love your fatty when the shit from your body. Welcome back, fat campers. 14:43 I really love you. Glad that you could, uh, stick with us through that little break there. Um, we are going to get to our itemized list now. Yes, we have a list. Since we introdu- introduced this show here. 14:55 Um, a question came up from our friend Dan. Dan, you still there? Hell yeah. All right, Dan's still here. Sweet. All right, I like the enthusiasm. Uh, TPI. Oh. Uh, is it worth... 15:05 Is, is the cheaper tire that's a lower TPI worth the mo- worth saving the bucks for? Definitely not. No. Okay. No. What's a- No, no, no, no, no, no, no. Okay. So let's, let's give a- No, no, no, no, no, no... 15:17 give a quick view of TPI. Okay. So TPI stands for threads per inch. Okay. So it's just like the sheets on your bed if you are into that bourgeois- Ooh... kinda stuff. Yes. So- Yes... 15:28 so what, what it is is- That's a good... it's- I understand now... it, it basically, they, what they do is like they measure how many threads you can put side by side over an inch area. Okay. 15:37 So what you'll commonly see is like 60 TPI or 120 TPI. Okay. And technically, there's, there's some variation on this, but technically 120 TPI tire should end up having, uh, a, a lot of times it's cotton. 15:53 Sometimes it's gonna be nylon, but whatever the thread material is. Um, actually I sh- I shouldn't, I shouldn't say that. Um, for fat bike tires it's almost always gonna be like a nylon. Okay. 16:02 And what they, what they do is they kinda have this, this weave that is like 120 threads over an inch-long area. All right. Um, and what they do is they, they will put multiple plies of these. So you'll have, um... 16:18 So I mean, literally all these threads are like parallel to each other. So then what they'll do is they'll put a second ply, and they'll put it at 90 degrees to that. Okay. 16:27 You know, and if you, if you think about all these threads just being like right next to each other, that's gonna be strong in like one direction, but you put it like in a different direction and, you know, all of them are just gonna pull apart from each other no problem- Right... 16:39 if you go 90 degrees. So that's why they put them at like these 90-degree angles, or they might do them at different angles than that. It's like... And I think a lot of times they'll end up doing two plies, three plies. 16:48 I think it's three plies is normal. Um, and then sometimes they'll do more plies on the sides and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. 16:53 But, um, I guess also the other asterisk to all this stuff is that sometimes a manufacturer, like if, let's say, I, I think it's three plies, but let's say that it's two plies. 17:04 They'll use two 60 TPI layers and call it 120 TPI. So there's some games they play with the thread count. However- Okay... this is all minutia. This is all stuff that doesn't- Of course... make that... 17:18 I mean, it, it makes a difference, but it doesn't make that big a difference. Okay. 17:21 You know, the, the biggie is when a manufacturer offers, let's say, a 60 TPI version versus 120 TPI version, always go for the 120 TPI version, and the reason why is because it's gonna have more threads per inch. 17:36 And what happens with that is with the casing you've got all these threads kinda parallel to each other, and then what they do is they, they kind of like coat that whole thing. 17:45 They, they, they, you know, kind of impregnate it or whatever you wanna call it with a rubber material, and if there are a bunch of little threads, those individual plies are very thin. They're very flexible. 17:59 Um, but they're also still very strong 'cause you got 120 threads in there, uh, in that one direction. Um, whereas with the 60 TPI, everything's a whole lot fatter. It's a lot stiffer. 18:12 It's, um-Uh, just not gonna feel as good. 18:15 It's not gonna be as supple and the suppleness of a tire is a very, very, very, very key component to how fast that thing's gonna roll, like what the rolling resistance is gonna be, how good your traction's gonna be- Okay... 18:27 because if, if your tire can conform to the irregularities of the trail surface, you know, it's like kinda getting into all those nooks and crannies and stuff like that, it's going to end up having way better traction on top of, uh, rolling better. 18:41 So you know, I mean, if, if you can only... Like, if you couldn't afford tires [laughs] 18:48 and, you know, or like let's say you, you like studded tires, like there's no way you can afford them except for the 60 TPI, then go for the 60 TPI 'cause the studding makes a big difference. But- Yeah... 18:59 in general, like if you're shopping for tires, don't mess around with the low TPI fat bike tires. Um, it's, it's a really good way to make your bike ride like crap. Okay. They're just... They're gonna be really slow. 19:11 They're gonna be really heavy. They're... You just... All these bad characteristics that are gonna extench- you know, sort of extenuate the, the negative aspects of fat bikes. 19:20 I d- I do like my tires fat, but I don't like them stiff. Ah, yes. Okay. Yes. Yeah. Okay. Just so, just so you know. Um- No stiffies for Andy. Right. Okay. So there's... You got your lesson on TPI there, Dan. 19:34 Um, now what about studding a tire? Worth it? A pain in the butt? I don't think it's that bad. Okay. But I'm starting to get opinions- Yeah... about studding tools. Studding tools? 19:48 I, I, I've not done a big study of this, but the Bontrager tool I really like. Okay. And one of the key features- Yeah... is that it is magnetic. So- Oh... it actually holds the stud in the tool. Gotcha. 20:02 I, I was spoiled because Bontrager sent me their studding tool and a bunch of studs- Yeah... along with, um, some tires and I just started doing it and I'm like, "Oh, okay, no big deal." And then, um, 20:16 I was talking to somebody else and they're like, "Okay, I've got this unstudded tire. I wanna stud it." I'm like, "Oh, it's easy. No problem." 20:22 And, um, ended up ordering up some parts for them and stuff, and got the 45NRTH tool. Not magnetic. Oh, okay. I did not like the ergonomics of that 45NRTH tool. Okay. All right. 20:33 So, um, I don't know what other brands are like, but the Bontrager one- So don't be intimidated- Th-... by- Yeah, big pimpin'... studding the tire. It's, it's- No, I know... it's approachable. And yeah, and it's- Yeah... 20:46 I mean, basically sit down with a couple beers and, you know- Yeah... like an hour or two later you'll have a pair done. It's not, it's not gonna end up being the easiest job in the world, but- Yeah. 20:55 Right now we're s- as we're sitting in this room, uh, our friend Dan is, is, uh, studding a tire. Yep. And, um, uh, you're... Are you enjoying studding this tire? Yeah, it's not too bad. Oh, cool. Awesome. Sweet. 21:06 All right. Good. Gotcha. Yeah. Thank you very much. I really appreciate it. Yeah. So. Um- I'm putting him to work. My computer just died, so let's- Oh... take a quick break. 21:14 E- this is a quick one, and then we'll be, uh, we'll be right back after this. Love the fatty. Love the fatty, fatty, fatty, fatty. I love the fatty when you take off your baggy. I love the fatty when you slide. 21:26 I love the fatty when you drop off your baggy. I love the fatty when you shake off your body. I really love you, fatty. Okay, so we're back from that break. My computer has some juice now, so I can look at the agenda. 21:39 Um, we're gonna have a live studding, um- Update... review. Update? Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And we've got, we've got active studding, like, action going on here with- We, but we switched tools. Correct. All right. 21:51 Changing a variable. Yeah. Okay. Scientific method in action right now. Nice. Same studs, different tool. Okay. Um- And what's, what's, what's the verdict so far? We've, we've only put in maybe a dozen, 10. 22:03 What do you think so far? 45NRTH. I, I haven't dropped one yet without the magnet and going in pretty easy. What, what were your thoughts on the magnet of the other tool? 22:13 I didn't even know it was there, and I haven't noticed a lack- Ooh... of a magnet yet- Okay... with the 45NRTH, so. All right. All right. Okay, so maybe the magnet- Interesting... isn't all it's cracked up to be. Yeah. 22:22 All right. So, um, news to me, not news to Ken, obviously, um, uh, most people know if they listen to, they're friends of the podcast, uh, yearly, um, we s- turn our angles, our headset around. Yeah, yeah. 22:37 Do- We, we- So g- more background. Okay. Thank you. So Andy and I both end up having, um, Quiring bikes. Yep. 22:44 And when Quiring ended up building our bikes for us, he ended up putting a bigger, uh, head tube on the frame so that we can put i- what, a, a Cane Creek angle set in there, and that makes it so you can change the head tube angle of your bike. 23:00 So you, you know, both of us have got bikes that we end up using for all four seasons. Mm-hmm. 23:05 And we got at least two different wheel sets, so we'll run like 29 plus during the summer, and then we'll run fat during the winter and use the same frame, but if you steepen up the angles for summer riding, it works better on our trails. 23:19 Yes. And then if you- Flickability. Yeah, you slack it out and make it a little slower handling and more chilled out. Bounce, bo- bounce. Um, uh, for the winter it works a little better. Yeah. So it makes... 23:29 You, you basically run one frame and get four season use out of it and have it be pretty much optimized. Right. So- Which we talked about before, but anyways... 23:37 key piece to that is the headset that you can get, it's, it's off center. Um, it's, it's a really cool design. Um, but Cane Creek is no longer making the angle set. So why? I, my guess is the demand wasn't there. Huh. 23:53 Which surprises me because- I thought downhill folks use those. Some. Okay. Some. But the, the, the problem is that there's a lot of production frames that it's not compatible with. Okay. Um, so, you know, 24:06 th- there, this, this kinda gets back to bike standards, how bike standards suck. Um, there's a million different, uh, sort of like bearing sizes and headset sizes, you know, like kinda press-... fit diameter things. 24:20 Um, and I don't remember how many Cane Creek made. It was at least three or four different ones per top and per bottom. Oh, wow. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Okay. 24:31 You know, so they, they, they had a lot of different parts that went into this- Sure... and they weren't probably selling a whole lot. 24:37 And then there's just a ton of bikes out there that even with how many they were making, you, you know, they wouldn't fit. Gotcha. So, you know, and then, then on top of it, you know, like with the kind that we've got, 24:51 you've got, um, three different cups. You've got a zero offset, um, you got- Half, one, and one and a half... right, yeah. Actually- You-... I guess with the angle set, you don't have a zero. 25:03 You've got the, the half- Half, one-... one- And one and a half... and one and a half. And it, that's plus or minus. Right. So you've got, on the, the biggest one, you've got a three-degree switch- Three, yeah... 25:11 if you flip it around, or- Right... you've got a two-degree switch, or you got a one-degree switch. Right. Um, so I was just really bummed. There's, there's- Yeah... FSA supposedly still makes one. 25:20 I haven't checked to end up seeing that. There's, uh, a British company called Works. They make them. Right. Um, so there, there are still a couple companies making angle sets supposedly. Okay. 25:33 But I mean, I, literally as soon as I found out, I'm like scouring the internet trying to find how to get an angle set and I can't find any. Ugh, bummer. Yeah, that sucks. Okay, so- But and by the way-... 25:47 boo, boo Cane Creek, man... my experience with them, they have been flawless. Yeah. Uh, I hear people complain about them creaking and all this other kind of stuff. 25:54 Mine have been flawless, and I have used the crap out of them. Along with a, half a dozen other people that live locally around here. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yep. Um- So sorry. Yeah. More, more negativity, rawr. 26:08 So, um, what, what's this new appreciation of four-inch tires that you have written down here? Oh, I, I've actually really- Because a year ago when we were- Ah... 26:18 120 inches in the snow, four-inch tires were just like, "Why do they even make them anymore?" Exactly. It's so stupid. It's like a racer boy thing. It's like if you- Right... 26:24 lived in Lexington, Kentucky, maybe- Totally... you know, blah, blah, blah. Totally. But no, this year, I mean, it's like the, the snow line has moved up to our area, so- Right, right... 26:33 you know, we've, we've had very, very light snows. They've, a lot of crusty snow. Yeah. That's, that's a place where a four-inch tire is rad. Huh. 26:40 It's like if, if the, if you've got a base somewhere under there, it's not just like bottomless snow- Yeah... a four-inch tire is pretty awesome. Wow. And- I never thought I'd hear you say that. 26:50 No, it, it, and, and there's situations like when you get really crusty snow, a four-inch tire is super, super cool because you're basically flattening a, a narrower amount, and it, it is, it's really, it's, it's significantly noticeable. 27:03 I mean, you know? So in the right conditions- Yeah, yeah... a four-inch tire is superior to- I think, uh, without a doubt. Okay. And there, there's times that it's superior from a traction standpoint. 27:17 It's definitely superior, like it can be like way superior when it comes to a, um, rolling resistance standpoint. 27:24 But I mean, there's other times that, you know, um, you know, a 4.8 whatever tire can end up being lower rolling resistance because you're, you're not like totally crunching down into the snow. Yeah. 27:36 So it just, if you can read your conditions and pick it out right- Yeah... a four-inch tire is like really awesome. 27:41 It's like, it's, previously what I sort of thought was like, okay, if I could have two tire setups, I could be happy. 27:50 I'd have like a deep powder setup, and then I'd have kind of like a 4.5, 4.6-inch tire with studs on it. Sure. That I, would be my all-arounder. Right. I can now see a case being made for a third tire in there. 28:05 With, it's, it's basically this Vanhalga. I, I absolutely love the Vanhalga. Okay. The, the 27.5 by, uh, four-inch or 3A, whatever the heck it is, uh, Vanhalga is an amazing tire. Um- Gotcha... 28:16 really good traction, just really good handling characteristics, and then, you know, it's this whole kinda like little bit skinnier tire, four-inch tire type of thing. 28:26 Um, it, it does really, really, really well, and it seems to have just this gigantic sweet spot, um, which is really appreciated. 28:36 You know, it's like it, like it's, it's actually got pretty decent float where there's been some deeper snow conditions where, you know, I was still able to hang with, you know, Dillinger 5s and, you know, uh, the Terrene, uh, Wazias and- Sure... 28:52 you know, stuff like that no problem. Yeah. Hey, Dan, you need another set of tires by the way according to... 28:57 Now you need a, you need a deep powder sn- snow tire, you need an ice snow tire all-arounder, and you need a four-inch tire, so, you know, put that into your quiver there, okay? [laughs] "Sounds good," he says. 29:08 All right. Uh, well speak of tires- Well, and, and, and I d- I'm gonna kind of like foreshadow a little bit 'cause I think we were talking about sweet spots- Yeah... potentially for tires. Let's blend them all together. 29:19 Well, I guess what I'm talking about, like if you had three tires, like three tire setups- Yeah... you know, with 29:27 the sweet spots, which we'll define later on in this so that this comment will make sense and actually sound smart later. Which will cost you over $1,000 for- Yeah. Oh, it's-... three sets of tires... 29:35 yeah, it, I mean, I'm just being stupid, but it's- Okay... if you, if you wanted tires that were like you had like you were like at 99, 98% of the maximum performance you can possibly have for a bicycle setup- Okay... 29:47 in such and such conditions- Yeah... three tires, if you pick the right ones, I bet you, you could probably span it. Okay. That's kind of- I got you. 29:54 Yeah, no, I, I- Yeah, so it's like, I mean, you would have like race ready, just like ready to go kick, get, you know, people's butts, you know? Right. Like total uber dork. Sure. You would, you'd give nothing up. Okay. 30:06 Um, I, I don't know where to go with this, but, uh, we wanted to talk about how you test a snow ti- how you test a fat bike tire. Yeah. You know, so- And-... I'm gonna in very general terms provide some context, 30:21 b- which is kind of the latest reason why I've thought about this. You know, I thought about this a lot over the years because-I test a lot of tires, so I, I want it... I- the, the placebo effect is very real. Okay. 30:34 And there's some big variation in, you know, how you feel and, like, okay, you might be on a, like, a super good day. 30:43 Like, and you're riding with your buddies, and you're kicking all their butts, and you're like, "Oh, man, my gear must be really fast." You know? 30:47 It's like there's, there's a lot of different things that can kind of trick you into thinking that something feels good when it really quantitatively does not. Right. 30:55 So, you know, tire testing is something that I've given a lot of thought over the years. But most recently- Yeah... we've been working with a tire manufacturer. 31:03 They asked for some recommendations- Yeah, I wondered if-... on some stuff... okay. All right, gotcha. And, uh, we got some prototype tires to test out. Yeah. And- We have prototypes. [laughs] Um, and, 31:19 uh, we were sent the, the, the tires and then basically, like, a comparator. Yeah. So, you know, it's like another tire that has similar construction and a lot of other kind of characteristics like that. 31:30 So basically trying to keep all the variables the same as much as possible, and then there's kind of been some conversations with one of the engineers at that manufacturer about, okay, what is the, the testing protocol? 31:44 What, what are, like, testing conditions so that you can determine how these two tires compare? Sure. And as a lot of us know, snow is a really difficult substance because it's so ever-changing. 32:01 You never go on two rides where it's the same. You go ride it. You're like... Let's say you go ride a five-mile loop, and then you start that five-mile loop again. 32:09 The act of having ridden it five miles ago changed your snow. Sure. You know, it, it's, it's not the same loop. Right. So, you know, it's kind of this question of, oh, okay, how do you really compare two tires? You know? 32:23 Like, how do, how do you, how do you assess a tire? How well does it work? What, what's going on with it? Yeah. How do you? I've got a lot of thoughts. How, how, what... And I don't wanna, like, spoil- I-... your mind. 32:34 It's, it's- What, what are yours? Well, it's just that that's, that's the thing is that in the summer, testing tires is 32:42 kind of like, "Okay, I'm gonna go do this, and then I'm gonna, I'm gonna do it again, and it's gonna be exactly the same." E- exactly. But you're right. No two rides are the same. You need a different pressure. 32:53 You might need a different tire. Um, you might need to ride in a different spot of the trail. It, it, well- You know?... and then it's like over the course of the day, the temperatures change. Yeah. 33:02 So your snow changes. So the snow is different from the beginning of the ride. The sun changes. [laughs] Right. 33:06 There's- Even the, from the beginning of ride A to the end of ride A, you're gonna be like, "I went through three different types of conditions." Yeah. You, you go through a spectrum. So 33:16 I don't, I don't know because certain tires, you know, f- to me feel like they roll really well, and then certain tires to me feel like they don't roll very well. Well, I- But it wasn't... It was a different day. 33:29 Statistically, I mean, I mean, what, what you're talking is basically w- you know, the law of large numbers or whatever, you know? Yeah, yeah, yeah. 33:35 It's like you get a big enough sample set, and you kind of start to build these generalities because you get... You know, you build up this, this bank of experience. Mm-hmm. 33:44 So, I mean, I guess the question is when you're testing a tire and you only have them for one season, how do you build up that bank of experience best? 33:53 And, you know, and, and kind of bringing this back to the, you know, the eng- this engineer and this company and trying to test these tires. Mm-hmm. You know, it's like he literally wants to, like, fly up here, 34:03 do a test session, collect some data, and then fly back to the big city that he's from and have an assessment of this tire. 34:15 And, and I, I, I don't wanna try to make it sound like, you know, this is the only assessment that this manufacturer's gonna end up using, but it's just, it's been kind of interesting to see 'cause they have a te- a tire testing protocol. 34:27 Right. You know, they, they have an internal protocol on how they go about testing tires, and, uh, it just, it doesn't seem- They don't have one for-... like fat bikes fit... they don't have one for winter. No. 34:39 They don't. No. It's a paradigm shift- Yeah... in how you test tires. And- It's, it's, it's gotta be... 34:42 I'll be damned, I'll be damned if it's seven degrees outside in the parking lot, and I'm gonna switch my tires and go, and go through that rigmarole. 34:49 Plus, it's gonna be on, with tubes, you know, or- Well, and i- and, like, in the-... it could be a tube... in the idealized situation, you'd have two bikes, and they'd both be set up the same. 34:56 You know, and it's like they'd be exact the same pressure, and one would have one tire, and the other would have the other tire, and they'd be on the same rims. 35:01 And you'd, you would control all the variables, and you would just, like, step off of one bike and step onto the other bike. Right. You know? So you- But life doesn't work that way. Right. So, I mean- I, I don't know. 35:11 What do you got? I don't... The thing, I would say probably one of the biggest things that, um, I use when evaluating tires is riding with people that I have just years and years and hundreds of rides- Oh... 35:26 of experience with- Yeah... on, you know, and it's like... And then kind of just kind of going through, and, you know, you, you have... You know what their technical skills are like. You know what their fitness is like. 35:38 You've been riding with them frequently, so you kind of like, you know, know where they're at in their fitness cycle and some- Yeah... things like that. 35:44 Um, you, and you've kind of learned their nuances as a rider so that it gives you a, a little bit more information about that aspect versus, you know, it's like they're just, you know, they're on a good day or whatever. 35:58 Sure. Um, and then, you know, you can kind of like feel up tires. You know? [laughs] You can feel them on the ride. Oh, okay, they're a little bit higher pressure, or they're a little lower pressure. Okay. 36:06 You can, uh, then compare in these spots, this tire does this. In these spots, this tire does this, and it seems like it really accelerates that learning curve for me. 36:17 'Cause you both are on the same conditions during the ride. Exactly. You know? Well, and it, yes and no. I mean, the person who in front- Well-... has different conditions than the person behind them. 36:25 Right, right, right, right. You know, or the person five- Yeah... people down the line or whatever if you're riding- Yeah... in a group. But at the same time-You can still, I mean you can kind of then... 36:35 And then, then you're, you've kinda got down to one characteristic you gotta assess. Okay, this is what the difference is between being front in the line and being behind. 36:42 And if you're dealing with a groomed trail, it typically, you know, there, there might not be that big a difference if you just bop over five inches. [laughs] Sure. You know what I mean? 36:49 You can get the same exact conditions. So there, there's a lot of stuff that way that you can assess, and I don't... You know, Go- Gomez has like 36:59 emailed me about like power meters and all this other kind of stuff, and the only thing I can think of is like, you know, the, the, the traditional way to test tires is a roll down test. Okay. 37:10 And what you do is like, you know, this would be on a gravel road- Mm-hmm... or, you know, like a, you know, traditional paved road. 37:16 And what you do is you go up to the top of the hill, and you have some way to kinda control your entry speed. A lot of times you start from zero because you're on a hill. Mm-hmm. 37:23 And then you hold your body position totally the same, so your aerodynamic drag would end up being the same, and you then see either how far you roll before you come to a stop or how far you roll until you hit some sort of threshold speed, like five miles an hour, and then you're like, "Oh, okay. 37:40 This is, this is- Okay... my end point." The, the only way I can see that working would be if you were on a cross-country ski trail, like a skate ski trail- Yeah... that's like, you know, 37:49 I don't know, 10 feet wide, and you do a run down, you know, this side of the trail. Then you do the [laughs] run down, you know, the quarter point. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. 37:56 And then you do the half point, and you know, you know, like that. Well, that, that's a good way to... That would seem like a good scientific way to do it. That's, and that's one of the things that I've wanted to try. 38:07 But even with that, it's like, I mean I just know from grooming, depending on where like, you know, in the, in the case of like I'm thinking of the trail park. 38:14 You know, where the, where the snow wheel goes, you'll get these like veins of harder snow. Oh. You know what I mean? So it's like even your m- So even within that wide swath- Yeah... you're gonna have variability. 38:25 So I, I mean it's like... I don't know. I just, it's one of those things where I've, I've, I've tried to figure out a way to definitively test tires. 38:35 I've never come up with anything better than going out and riding with my friends [laughs]- Yeah... on local trails that I know- Yeah... when they're in primo condition. Right. And- Okay... 38:45 really kinda seeing how things settle out. Well, I think if anybody's listening to this and they have a better idea, I would certainly be open to it. Yeah, yeah. I, I would definitely be interested. 38:54 Email us and let us know. How's that tool, Dan, that you just dropped? He said, he got a thumbs up. That's all we got. [laughs] He's a quiet kind of guy. He doesn't like to talk in the mic very much. 39:03 [laughs] He's O- He gets nervous. He thinks a lot of people listen to this thing. Um- A little dizzy now. So there's w- testing tires, it's still eh. It... But you know it when you see it. Ooh. Don't you? 39:21 I mean- Yeah. Yeah. I, you know, I don't, I don't wanna be too big a dork, but I mean- No, but even-... that's what it comes down to... uh, I've been switching bikes with, uh, Sloan Peterson. 39:30 [laughs] We did it the other day. [laughs] Yeah, yeah. We, we both smashed our fingers, man. [laughs] Yeah, I know. He was like all bloody the other day. Yeah. 39:36 Um, and I noticed tire differences even though they're different bikes and they're different setups and there's different positions. Yep. But we s- we were switching, and you can notice it. 39:46 And I don't know if it's, you know, he's got carbon rims, and I have aluminum rims on that bike and blah, blah, blah. But 39:52 I mean, that's another good way, I think, to test stuff out is to, hey, if you can swap with a buddy. I, I think that's an ideal way, yeah. Yeah. 39:58 And it is, I guess that was one of the things that I didn't necessarily mention is like if you can go out and ride with somebody whose bike is set up position-wise pretty similar to yours and you can swap back and forth- Yeah, yeah... 40:07 that's huge. Yeah. Yeah. No, it worked out. We, we discovered that. We were like, "Oh, we don't need to adjust saddle height. This is good." Yeah. So- Yeah, that's really cool... pedals were the same. 40:15 So, um, ride with people that you know. Maybe that'll give you a semi-good idea about the, um, rolling resistance, how the tire behaves, how it performs, blah, blah, blah. Or switch bikes. That's what we got. Yes. 40:28 That's the science for us. Yeah, and it, unfortunately, I wish... I mean, if somebody's got ideas of how we can quantify this better and make it so that it's actually a real scientific test- Mm... 40:37 I'm all ears, but- We also have the contest that's out there, and we have a prize. So if you are like, "What?" Uh, in episode 36- [laughs]... episode 30, uh, Fat Camp 36, there is a contest. 40:47 You might need to go back and listen to that, but we still have the prizes out there. What's that? $10,000, right? Uh, no, not $10,000. No, no, no. I, yeah, hopefully that does not come through audio-wise. No. 40:55 Evidently Dan wants to- At all... give out $10 to the winner, but, um, we'll see. Jeez, oh, Pete. [laughs] We're gonna take a real quick break. We'll be back to wrap this thing up. I really love you, fatty. 41:05 Fatty, fatty, fatty, fatty. I love you, fatty, when you take off your baggy. I love you, fatty, when you slide. I love you, fatty, when you drop off your baggy. I love you, fatty, when you shake off your body. 41:19 I really love you, fatty. All right, folks. We're back just for the last bit of this podcast, uh, Fat Camp 37. Um, but as you- Live update. Yeah, a live update. We've been studying the t- We. [laughs] Here we go. 41:32 Stud boy. Yeah, exactly. Stud boy's been studying our tires. Uh, Dan's been studying the, this, uh, Bontrager Gnarwhal for us, and he's got some information that, um, he wants to share with everybody about the tool. 41:43 Is that right? Yeah. Breaking news. Yeah. Uh, breaking news. Studder. Yeah. Good. All right. I've been rocking two Studders tonight. [laughs] Got the Bontrager, and I got the 45NRTH. Okay. 41:53 And, uh, I, I prefer the, the 45NRTH, Ken. I'm sorry to, to say to you, but the- Oh, no. No, no, no apologies needed... the 45NRTH, the, the magnetic thing is, is great, but it hasn't, uh- It's a gimmick... it is. 42:04 It doesn't matter to me. I just put the stud in there, picks it right up. I can hold it, you know, hold it with a stud. With gravity, it can fall out, but it doesn't really. 42:14 Put it right in the tire, and, and I don't know why. I'm looking at both of them. Sounds leverage. Let me... 42:18 [laughs] I'm looking at both of them, and, uh, and they're, they're very similar in design, and, and both work fine. But the, the 45NRTH was, uh, was by far, uh, better for my ergonomic hand. All right. 42:29 And it, and it w- and it sunk the stud better in my opinion. Straight from the source. Yeah. Stud boy says- I've got one tire of experience. Yep. And, uh, I, I prefer the 45NRTH. All right. There we go. 42:40 Scientific.So what do we got next here, Ken? [laughs] Uh- We just ended up having a hostile takeover So, so stud design. What... I, I hear we're talking... 42:50 There's a, there's a, there's a lot of things going on about how and where you need to put studs. [laughs] What do, what do you think? What... How is that going on? So I have been doing a study of studs. Okay. 43:02 And, um, part of the, the, the thing that prompted this was, um, there was kind of a... How do I...? Stud production was lagging last year. Ooh. Yeah. There was an issue. Like, if you, if you... 43:17 If people that tried- Maybe people wanted studs. It... Well, that... 43:20 There was, there was an element of that, and there was, like, innovation going on in the stud world, but the manufacturing techniques couldn't keep up with the innovation. Hm. 43:30 They were running into manufacturing issues, supposedly. So what... So the Rathchild. Okay. Some people might be familiar with that. It's a, it's a, a, what? It was, like, a new tire for 45NRTH last year. 43:44 Kind of a big splash. And they not only just ended up having a new tire, but they also ended up having a new stud design. Oh. And it was called the, the XL stud. 43:55 And, uh, for those of you that may or may not know about studs, like, there's... They're, they're typically T-shaped, and the whole base of that T is aluminum. And then what they do is they put on a carbide tip. And 44:12 those carbide tips can be a lot of different sizes and shapes. Traditionally, the carbide tip is very small in diameter. It's smaller than the aluminum base. 44:21 It's maybe, I don't know, maybe two millimeters across or something like that. And what 45NRTH did, [clears throat] excuse me, previously is that it was concave. 44:31 So you had kinda like this outer rim, and then the inner portion was dug out. 44:36 And then Terrene came out a couple years ago with another stud design, which was basically the same, but then they d- like, kind of, like, cut it a couple different ways so there was, like, this triple point on it. 44:48 And when the Waziya was originally introduced, and I think that was what, three years ago? Two years ago? Um- I have no idea... I think it was two years ago. Uh- [laughs] This is where Andy needs to jump in. No. 45:00 Um, I think it was two years ago. Uh, so it, it was this really, really, really sharp stud, and they said they could go with fewer of them. 45:09 They, they ended up going, like, 150 instead of, like, I don't know, it was, like, 220 or something like that. I'm... And I, I could be 100% wrong on numbers. 45:16 But the stud was a lot sharper, so therefore it ended up working better, and they said they could go with fewer of them, so it was cheaper to end up making the tire. It was lighter, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. 45:28 But Terrene somehow kinda got on the forefront of stud manufacturing, and they've kind of gone all out since then. 45:39 And in the last year or so, they've now started to make multiple types of studs, and they're all this, like, triple point technology. And they have their original one, which was a little bit longer. 45:51 It was the same height as the origin- original 45NRTH stud. Um, then they started making a lower profile one, which supposedly had lower rolling resistance. 46:04 Um, and now they've also got a third one, which is, um, bigger in diameter and taller. And I don't remember what they necessarily call it, but that's kinda like their most aggressive one. Um, and that was to combat... 46:21 Because what happened was 45NRTH originally came out probably four years, five years ago, um, with their original stud. And like I said, you have this aluminum stud base. It's kinda T-shaped in cross-section. 46:32 You've got this smaller carbide stud tip. And the carbide is really durable, so it doesn't wear out, like, if you're riding it on the road. 46:40 But what, what they d- [laughs] getting all the way back to the Van Helga, finally, um, uh... Or excuse me, not the Van Helga. Rathchild. Rathchild. Rathchild. My bad. Uh, Rathchild. 46:52 Um, when the Rathchild was originally designed, it was supposed to have this 45NRTH XL stud, and it would have this very big cap. 47:01 So the, the carbide portion of the stud would be as big a diameter as the lower aluminum portion. Mm-hmm. So it'd be, like, four or five millimeters- Yeah... in diameter. Got it. 47:11 And what the claim was is that it would have all this surface area, and it'd be able to end up connecting up with stuff. 47:17 So Terrene basically did an equivalent of that, but it's got points on it, so it's a little bit sharper. So we got, like, a stud- Um-... a stud-off. Right. Yeah, exactly. We got all this competition. 47:29 [laughs] There's a picture in the showroom. There's a picture in the showroom. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I've, I've got a picture of all of them. And then, then there's, there's other stud designs. 47:37 I mean, that's, that's kind of... Those two companies have been squaring off- Hm... as far as stud technology. Then you've got Bontrager, who is... I don't... It, it's kind of the flat-top design. There aren't... 47:51 There's no shaping of the carbide portion of it. Just bigger sizes. Yeah. It's basically just this kinda flat-top metal thing that you can cram into the ice. Um, 48:00 Vee Tire has, like, a cone shape, um, which is lower and really fast rolling, but doesn't bite in as well. I can, I can say that definitively compared to 45NRTH. It's the dog's dick. Yeah, the dog's dick. Yep. Yeah. 48:14 That's it. Um, so we've got all these different stud designs. I guess this is the long story short. And then on top of it, we've got grip studs and a couple other things like that that are out there. And the, and the, 48:26 the decision is still out. You don't know what you like, don't know- No, I don't... how you like it. I mean, I, I have ex- [laughs] You don't know how you like it. 48:38 I have extensive time on the traditional 45NRTH, Vee Tire, and then both versions of, like, the medium-sized and the small-sized Terrene. Big difference?No. No. No. 48:51 They, they- I guess that's the bottom line, is like- Oh... um, there... [sighs] They... If you have a bad tire design, like a t- bad tread design, it really sucks, and a good one is really, really good. 49:04 It's, you know, it's like differences are almost exponential. Yeah. With studs, it seems like it's more linear or however you wanna describe it. It's not gonna make that big of a difference. No, no. 49:12 I- it's like the, the Vee Tire ones are the worst I've used. They make ice controllable, but you don't have good absolute grip. So you're gonna slide around a lot, but you're gonna be able to control what you're doing. 49:26 Um, the low profile Terrains, same sort of thing. Um, a little bit grabbier, so it's like it, they kind of like catch and slip a little bit more, but at the same time you've got about the same type of actual grip. 49:42 The, uh- Splitting hairs. [laughs] Oh yeah, I, I totally am splitting hairs. Okay. Andy just chimed in, but he doesn't have a mic. This is where we cut him off? Okay. 49:50 'Cause I find there's certainly a difference between- No, but it's like there, there's a continuum of them. And then so then you've got the, like the, the 45Nrth, like traditional studs. 49:58 Then, you know, that's kind of the next one. And then you bump up to the mid-size Terrain Triple Cutter, which is like some of the same height and dimensions and stuff like that. That's got a lot more friction. 50:07 And then I'm assuming the XL and this Triple Cutter big thing from Terrain have even more still, but I don't know. I- Do you, do you see... Is there a way you want the stud game or the tire game with that to go? 50:21 Is there something you'd like to see? Well, so my, the, the innovation that I am proposing- Okay... I think, I think a tire manufacturer- Listen up, industry, right? Well [laughs] What are you proposing? 50:33 We- So what I'm proposing is that I think that tire manufacturers should make way more stud pockets into tires than they do. 50:39 Way more than you're probably going to use at any one given time, so that people can customize the studding pattern they want to end up using for a front tire or a rear tire. 50:50 Uh, will they still be able to sipe the tires though? Well, the... And that's, I guess that's- You'll lose that- This is Andy again... performance. Yeah, the, the- Right... the, the... Yeah. 50:57 And I guess that's what I kinda wonder about. It's like, you know, A, when it comes to the manufacturing difficulty of the stud pocket, how tough is it? Um- Right... 51:05 you know, so it's like are you gonna give up a lot that way? You know, B, it's like, you know, do, do we already have studs on every single fricking knob? You know? 51:14 [laughs] Well, so then just- And then, B, you know, it's like, you know, how is it gonna interfere with siping? Yeah. What studs do you put in what, what holes too? You got different studs there. 51:22 What, you maybe you put some smaller ones in the middle, bigger ones in the outside? It... Exactly. Customized studded tires. Right. That's what we're talking about. Yeah. So- So just- Wow... 51:31 just as soon as the fat bike world starts to get all, "Hmm, hmm, hmm," a little, what's that, the Eeyore. [laughs] E- Eeyore, you know who Eeyore is. Yeah. Um, then along comes 27, 27. 51:45 Well- And we start getting advancements in the studded tires. Yeah. And now we're talking about pockets and number of pockets, and you should pocket everything, and, you know. 51:53 It's just, it's a, it's an interesting aspect of tires that I don't think's been- Right, right... fully exploited. Exactly. Anything else on that, uh, outline there, Dan? 52:03 I think that's, I think that wraps it up for podcast number 37. [laughs] I, I think so. You've been a, you've been a great special guest for us. We appreciate that. I love being here. Cozy. Thank you, Dan. Cozy, awesome. 52:13 We really appreciate your- Nope, uh-... your input and your tire studding ability. Indeed, indeed. Y- and folks, if you're lucky, you might just hear Dan again when he studs the next tire for us. Um, yeah. Woo-hoo. 52:24 He's a, he's a good stud boy. Um, thanks for listening. Thanks for tuning in. Thanks for the emails. Thanks for following us on the Instagram, um, 'cause it matters to us. 52:34 [laughs] [laughs] A- actually the emails, the, it, it, it- The emails- [laughs] Yeah, no, it does. It does. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. We've got a lot of good emails. Yeah. Yeah, the emails are great. 52:42 Yeah, and it's like- And the action on the Instagram is always interesting too, you know? Yeah, lot of good questions. I'm really appreciative of people writing in. Geez, sorry about social media. 52:50 Did we apologize enough? Quit being a dick, Andy. It's all right. It's cool. All right, all right, all right. So anyways, uh, here's some, uh, killer tunes just to take us out again, and we'll see you on number 38. Yes. 53:01 I love your fatty when you shake your body. I love your fatty when you shake. I love your fatty when you, you move your body. I love your fatty when you shake. Thank you for listening. 53:14 The music we are using on today's show is the band Clancy Eccles and their song Fatty, Fatty. You can find all our shows at fattyfatbike.com, including notes for today's show. I love your fatty when you shake your body. 53:27 I love your fatty when you drop off your buggy. I love your fatty when you shake your body. I love your fatty when you drop off your buggy. I really love you, fatty, fatty, fatty, fatty, fatty
