Transcript 0:00 [upbeat rock music] Welcome to Fat Camp Show number 24 for sometime around the middle of July 2017. 0:27 Fatbike.com presents Fat Camp, a more or less monthly podcast covering different technical aspects of fat and plus bikes. Look for all our shows at fat-bike.com/radio, or subscribe to our feed on iTunes. 0:40 [upbeat rock music] Welcome to Fat Camp, new listeners and old listeners. 0:59 Here we are again. Long time no, I don't know if it's- No recording I think, yeah... or yeah. Yeah, that's, yes. Yeah. That would be what it is. Holy crap. Um, we're back. Yep, after a little hiatus. Yep. Um, and, uh, 1:16 well, it's a long story, but, uh, you know, we, we, we've been busy. Yeah. And, uh- It's been a busy spring... we appreciate people kind of sticking around, wondering where the heck we are. Um, but, uh, we're here. 1:28 We're gonna, we're gonna do some recording. Summer's gonna be busy as well. Um, we've got some things going on this summer that are gonna prevent us from, uh, kinda regular podcasts. 1:38 I think we're gonna try to, you know- I think we're gonna still try to fit them in once a month. Once a month. But- Yeah... yeah. But, uh- Let's kind of cross our fingers and hope that, you know, our schedules align. 1:47 Yes. And o- on behalf of Ken and I, I'd like to formally apologize to those, uh, people that listen to us, um, wondering where the hell we were. Uh, uh, work, family, health obligations, um, we, we- just shit went on. 2:02 Let's just put it that way. Yep. 2:04 But, but the good news is we're here to talk about fat and plus bikes, and we're here to talk about technical stuff, and, um, we're here to learn something, folks, because y- and Goddammit, I don't know everything. 2:17 [laughs] I'll be the first to admit it. There's no one in the room except Ken and I, but Ken, I, I don't know everything, Ken. [laughs] And you know what? Neither do I, Andy. Mm. So let's learn together. Y- yes, let's. 2:27 Let's go down the reading rainbow. Yeah. [laughs] Yeah. Um, but we've got some things bulleted, and we've got sub-bullets- Yep... all thanks to Ken. Yep, yep. It's gotta be properly formatted. Exactly. 2:38 We got the proper format that we're gonna talk about, and, um, we're gonna try to keep it as linear as possible, but I'm sure that, uh, that, um, it'll be an organic, uh, conversation, and we'll let it move wherever it needs to go. 2:51 [laughs] Okay. Um, so, uh, I, I- let's talk right now about what's in the test hopper 'cause I'm busy- Yeah... I'm busy right now. Yeah. Um- Yep, you got all sorts of stuff. Yeah. 3:00 I've got a RSD Sergeant, uh, aluminum hardtail, 27 and a half plus, uh, bike. Rowdy. 3:09 Oh, it's got more suspension than, um, I don't have a good simile, but it would have to do with penis, but I'm not gonna talk about it right now. [laughs] It's got 150 mils of travel up front on a pike. Yeah. 3:22 So it's, it's got a burly fork. Yeah. And so far, I've taken it out a couple times, and my local trail is not the place to ride it. Um- Yeah... it, it needs to be going downhill way more than uphill. 3:34 Yeah, I mean, it's, it's your really typical, you know, rowdy hardtail at this point. Yeah. Um, you know, I don- I don't know if, I don't remember if you said or not, but it is a plus bike. Yeah. It's 27, um, plus. 3:44 Um, you got, what is it, 27 by 3 inch or- Yeah... 2.8? Uh, no, 27 by 2.8. Yep, that's it. Okay. Yep. So- Schwalbe's, um- I think it's the Furious Fred's? No. Rocket Ron? Rocket Ron, yes. Yeah. Thank you. Not Nobby Nic. 3:58 Thank you. Yes. Yep, you're totally right on that. Mother Love Bone? Anyway. [laughs] Anyway. But yeah, it, you know, the slack, head tube angle, uh- Real slack... short- 66 something holy ridiculousness. 4:08 Yeah, short stem, super wide handlebars, um, fairly low bottom bracket for this size bike, and, you know, like you said, and a hell of a lot of travel with the fork. 4:17 Yeah, I kind of feel like Mary Poppins on the thing, you know? [laughs] Um- Yes... 4:21 and, and all of that stuff is amazing in certain places in the country, but unfortunately in the Midwest, you know, or at least in our portion of the Midwest, um, where you got a lot of narrow trees and, um, you don't have that steep a downhills- Right... 4:36 it's, it's not the perfect tool for the job for our area. 4:39 There's one s- there's, there's a couple spots, um, within driving distance, within, uh, 45 minutes that I can go, and I'm gonna, I'm gonna really run, try to rip it down those long motocross downhills and see- Yeah... 4:52 put- Super steep... I'm gonna put it in its elements... rugged downhills. Yes. Yeah, lots of roots and- Yep... you know, drops and all sorts of stuff. Yeah. It's, it's the, the Pisgah of Michigan. 5:01 [laughs] Yeah, it's, yeah, or at least lower peninsula of Michigan. Right. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. So, um, I'll, I'll do it- its, um, diligence. Yeah. Its due diligence. Yeah, you're gonna do your due diligence. 5:12 I'm gonna do my due diligence to put it in its proper environ- Yes... and, um, you know, come back, come back with a good review about who should ride this, where should they ride it, what kind of rider he is. 5:23 It only, it only has one bottle holder cage, so that kind of pisses me off. Yep. But anyway. [laughs] Um, so that's what's going on. 5:29 But, I mean, it, I, I gotta say, I was very, very, very impressed with this bike as far as the way it's built, the way it's specced out. Oh, totally. 5:35 Um, you know, they, they've done an amazing job with it, so, you know, while we talk about it maybe not being, you know, as Midwest friendly as some other bikes, I mean, it, 5:44 they, they've put a really good bike together, and I, I haven't really ridden it except for around Andy's neighborhood and- [laughs]... played around over on some curbs and stuff. 5:51 But I just, the spec on it, you know, the, the frame details, there's, there's a lot of cool stuff going on with it. Yeah. I, I'm gonna put some hours on it for sure. Um, so that's what's going on in my garage. 6:01 Also in my garage, just arrived today, is the, uh, specialized Rip Rock. It's a 24 inch by 2.8... inch kids' plus bike. Sweet. Yeah. 6:13 And, um, uh, the kids and I put it together, put some stuff up on, uh, Instagram, some live stuff on Instagram that was kinda fun. 6:20 Um, took it over to the playground and got some pics, so, um, that's up at, uh, fatbike.com. Uh, read that product preview, and my kids are gonna be trying to shred the gnar on that thing, um, during the summer. 6:31 I'm excited to see it 'cause they, you know, they had a, they had a fat bike that they played around with in the spring. They- They had two fat bikes... they had two fat bikes. They had a pair. That's right. 6:38 [laughs] Yeah. Yeah. Now they gotta share. Now they gotta share. Um, 6:42 and they've also had their traditional, um, uh, 2.1-inch tire mountain bike, so, um, it'll be cool, um, to see what's going on with this specialized RipRock. So, uh, make sure to stay tuned for that. 6:52 That's coming down the pipe. But that's what's going on in my garage in terms of test product. Gomez loaded me up. All hail Gomez. [laughs] So I ended up getting an article relatively recently about, um, 7:06 trying to compare, like, the white versus the black compound, um, Vee tires. Um, definitely give that a read. 7:13 Uh, I, I found it to be kind of an interesting experiment because I, I had only ridden, like, certain tread designs in white and different tread designs in black, and my impression was that the white was a lot better in winter riding. 7:27 Mm-hmm. But it wasn't till I went head-to-head that I'm like, "Whoa, the white is really sweet." Yeah. Um, I, I like that Snow Avalanche tread design. It seems to end up being a really good all-rounder. 7:38 It's very, very comparable to, like, a, a Dillinger or, you know, something like that, where it's just, like... 7:43 It's, it's one of those tires that you can put it on your bike, and it's not gonna be great in, like, super powder, but it's gonna roll fast, and it's gonna be pretty acceptable across the board. Uh-huh. 7:52 And it's just, they c- they come in two different sizes, four-inch and, like, the, I don't know if they label it as 4.8 or a five-inch, but, you know, it's y- it's your typical 4.8-inch size tire. 8:02 Um, and a true 4.8-inch size tire. Um, so you can kinda gauge it based upon your weight and what kinda, you know, flotation you need and stuff like that. Um, but having the black and the white, that was really cool. 8:14 Um, the white compound rolls considerably faster. Snow doesn't seem to stick to it as much. Um, just a lot of really good stuff with the white compound. I'm not the strongest reader. 8:25 Um, was, uh, but in the article, was there a price difference between those two tires? Yes and no. [laughs] Okay. So, um, technically, like, if you look at their official retail list prices- Yeah... 8:38 you pay a premium for the white tires. Oh, really? But, you know, when you actually look at real-world prices, a lot of times the white tires are cheaper because they're just... 8:49 I mean, I, I don't know how else to put it other than they're butt ugly. Um- Oh, okay. Yeah. You know, it's just, it, it's, it's the r- 8:55 the, the color combination with those is just really hard to put it on a bike and have that bike look good. Is, [laughs] is there a bike that those tires would look good on? I, I think there is. 9:06 I mean, I think you could do certain combinations of colors. But, um, you just, you know, you gotta find the right bike for it, you know? Like, I'm putting... 9:14 I've, I've got a bike that, um, it's my, my Quiring, you know, triple B. It's, it's made for 2XLs and stuff like that. Um, it's, it's painted yellow. Yellow. And I've got green anodized components on it. John Deere. 9:26 Yeah. And you throw on a pair of white tires, and, I mean, it just looks like, you know, it's the yellow snow bike, you know? That's what it's become. Yeah. So it just doesn't look good. Right. 9:36 It's that kid in eighth grade that never could match, and you used to make fun of him all the time. Exactly. Right, right, right. That would be me. Yep. Yeah, exactly. Yep. Thanks, Andy. Oh, that was you. Yeah. 9:42 [laughs] Okay. All right, cool. No, yeah, so it's like, that's, that's the one thing I think everybody ends up looking at me like, "Damn, those fuckers are ugly." All right. This is technical. Does aesthetics matter? 9:58 I, I don't necessarily think that's technical, but, um- I think you c- I think you could argue that it is. I- We all want our bikes to look really fucking s- cool. Oh, yeah. No, I 100% agree. 10:09 And as soon as they don't, we're like, "Well, it doesn't matter," because of the, the, um, function over form, you know? Yeah. 10:19 So- I mean, there, there's a lot of cases where, you know, in the bike world we choose function over form, but- If it, if it's so hideous, 10:28 like ridiculously hideous, but it works really well, would you s- would you go f- function over form? Well, I mean, the way I closed the article was that- Oh, yeah... I'm thinking about buying a pair of white 2XLs. Okay. 10:40 You know? And it's like I'm gonna go out of my own pocket and I'm gonna buy these things because- Gotcha... I mean, it makes that big a difference, you know? 10:46 And it's like, you know, and part of that is because the 2XL is such a slow-rolling tire that, you know, i- i- in black, that's the only way I've ridden. Right. I haven't ridden it in white. 10:58 But, um, you know, I would, I would love that thing to be more versatile because having that flotation and that amount of traction and all these other kind of things are, they're great. 11:06 It's got many, many good characteristics, but it just rolls like snot. Okay. So having a white one, which rolls better, I mean, I think it would, I would ride it considerably more. 11:16 I pretty much only will pull out the 2XLs because they are so slow. I mean, I'll only pull it out when I know I'm going on a group ride, and I gotta be breaking trail, and everybody's gonna be riding behind me. 11:27 Or, you know, I'm going out solo, and I'm gonna be doing some crazy powder ride or, you know, something like that. If you're far enough ahead of us, we won't even see how fugly it is. 11:35 No, well, the, the thing is, though, is that you guys will be able to keep up no problem if I'm riding the 2XLs, you know? Right. 11:41 It's like if I'm breaking trail and, you know, you guys are gonna be sitting behind me and thinking this is great. So- Yeah. That'll be fun... 11:48 you know, I, I really, I, I'm definitely of the opinion that in this case, you know, function definitely is beyond form. Got it. You know? It's, it's, it's, it's enough to sell me. Pouring beer. Hang on. Okay. 11:59 Pouring beer. Yep, yep, yep. Um, so anyway, uh, if you haven't read that article, y- which you're ridiculous if you haven't yet, um- [laughs]... 12:09 hop over to fatbike.com and read Ken's article about the black versus white compound. It's a good article, and if you need help with the big words, shoot us an email at fatcamppodcasters@gmail. Plural. Yeah, plural. 12:22 Sorry. [laughs] We're coming. We got tradition here, man. Yeah, exactly. It's been a while. I forgot about all these traditions. Um-And we, we can can help you with the big words, uh, durometer or i- 12:32 we- du- durometer, hysteresis. Yep. Um- Hysteresis is key... if you've been with us for a while, you're, you're aware of these words that don't really mean anything in regular language. Oh, oh, they mean so much. 12:41 [laughs] Oh, I know, I know, I know. Of course, of course I do. Um, so that's what's been going on in Ken's world. That's what's been going on in my world. 12:48 Um, uh, a c- probably what you're gonna hear about a lot over the next couple months, um, if not for the rest of the time [laughs] that we podcast, is that, um, Ken's got some things going on, uh, this summer. 13:00 [laughs] Just, just a couple small things. Well, I, I've, I've got a, I've had a couple, uh, cool opportunities pop up. Cool opportunities, yeah. Yeah, so, um, I'm, right now I just booked my flight. 13:12 In like a week from now I'm gonna be flying out to Salt Lake City, and then driving to the Wind River Range, and gonna be hiking the, the high route in the Wind Rivers. Um- No bike, though. No bike on that one, no. Okay. 13:25 All right. Yeah, unfortunately I, there's some sections of that that's all wilderness, so. Okay. And that, that I would... There's no way you'd wanna ride that. Right, right, right. That's pretty gnarly stuff. 13:32 So, um- So slow and low, that is the tempo. Yeah. Absolutely. Definitely. Right. Yeah. So they, you know, it's gonna be a little bit of a break. Yeah. 13:39 And then I'll be back for a few weeks, and then I'm headed out to Colorado. Mm. And I'm gonna ride the Colorado Trail. In record time? Techno. [laughs] I'm going out there... 13:50 I, I'm giving myself, you know, like, uh, 10 to 12 days to do it, which- Awesome... you know, I mean, I'm still gonna have to ride a decent amount. 13:58 Still gonna, I'm still gonna have to average over 45 miles a day, but- Okay. How tough is that? Uh, well, w- I, I don't wanna really comment. [laughs] Okay. [laughs] Okay. All right. All right. 14:07 I, I, I, I don't think it's gonna be, I don't think it's gonna be crazy tough. Okay. 14:12 Uh, and I'm trying to keep it from being crazy tough, because essentially what I'm gonna do is I'm gonna go out there, and I've got a little more than two weeks time out in Colorado. Yeah. 14:20 So I'm gonna do the Colorado Trail, and then I'm gonna, uh, spend a couple o' days kinda resting up, and then I'm gonna do the Leadville 100. 14:28 So, um, yeah, I'm, I'm just really looking forward to getting out into the Colorado high country and just chilling out, and, you know, riding my bike, and not having a whole lot else to do for a while. 14:40 It is legal out there, right? [laughs] Whatever you're speaking of, I think it is. [laughs] Um, okay, so, uh, then... Well, wait a minute, though. There, you're withholding, um, some, some more story here. 14:53 After CO Trail, then what? That, like I said, I'm gonna do- Oh... I'm gonna do the Leadville 100. Okay. Yep. And that's on, that's a, a plus tandem or a fat tandem? It's gonna be a plus tandem. Okay. Yep. So, 15:05 'cause just riding the Leadville 100, you know, that's, that'd be too easy. Right. You know? I, I gotta figure out ways to up, up the game here. Yeah. Um, no, I mean, more, more like, um, I probably wouldn't... 15:18 I'm not that motivated to race. Okay. So I wouldn't necessarily do it just for myself. But, um, uh, um, a husband and wife that I'm friends with- Right... 15:30 um, I've actually ridden the tandem and raced the tandem with both of them. Mm-hmm. Like, for instance, uh, the husband, uh- Oh, yeah, Chequamegon... yeah, exactly, James. I ended up doing Chequamegon with him. Right. 15:39 And I've raced with his wife, Laurie, several times. Uh-huh. But, um, James wanted to go out and race Leadville on a single speed. Really intelligent move there. 15:49 [laughs] Um, and they had a pretty bad experience riding the tandem at Leadville last year. Did they finish, though? Oh yeah, they finished. Okay. They, yeah, they got their belt buckle. 15:59 They finished- Oh, they did, okay... just barely under 12 hours. Okay. But, um, you know- They didn't stop and take a shit then, did they? [laughs] Anyway. 16:06 But James, uh, was like, basically for the whole, like, last, I don't remember if it was 50 or 60 miles, he couldn't eat anything. He was just, like, puking the whole time. Oh. Couldn't eat and barely could drink. Okay. 16:17 So, you know, they had a pretty rough time out there. Gotcha. So, um, they wanna head out there and do it again, and they were like, "Hey, you know, would you wanna end up doing tandem?" And I'm like, "Sure." Cool. 16:28 "Why not?" And it's kinda cool, 'cause we got a few other people going out there. Um, uh, Scott Quiring and, uh, Christina. Right. They're gonna go out- Cool... and they're gonna race it, too. Yep. 16:37 Um, we got another friend who's gonna go out there and do it. Yep, our friend Ryan's gonna head out there. Yeah, so- He's doing all gears, though, completely, isn't he? Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. 16:43 Good, good, good, good. He's not, he's not stupid. Right, right, right. [laughs] Um, so, you know, we got, we got a crew going out. Cool. So that's gonna be a good time. Nice. 16:51 Now, um, what's your, what's your, um, opinion about coming from 600 feet going up to 10,000 to start? Ouch. Do you just... Do, uh, do you just, do you go out and acclimatize, or do you just go and show up and race? 17:04 Okay. 17:05 So, um, pretty much, I, I think the general consensus on this is that if you're gonna go from sea level up to above 10,000 feet and race, what you wanna do is have the shortest amount of possible time between the time you get out there and the time you actually race. 17:20 Right. Because what happens is your body kind of, um, it reacts, and two or three days in, your performance will actually drop. Oh, okay. Because it's, your body is, like, going, "Holy crap, what have I gotten into?" 17:33 Right, right. So you basically wanna get out there as fast as you can, you know, and, like, race right away. Okay. 17:39 So then, you know, like Scott and Christina and Ryan, they're planning on, and same with James and Laurie, they're gonna plan on going out there and, like, racing within a couple days of being out there. Okay. Whereas 17:51 the, the other way you can end up doing it is if you've got two weeks, then you can acclimatize, and you're gonna end up doing, you know, a lot better. Is that, is two weeks a, a rule of thumb for most people? 18:05 Yeah, that's, that pretty much is, yeah. Okay. Like, after a week you start to kinda, you know, not suffer a lot. [laughs] Okay. 18:13 And then after two weeks, your body is really starting to respond, and after three weeks you're doing pretty good. So Colorado Trail will, will be challenging on multiple aspects. Oh, yeah. 18:22 One will be going from 600 feet to 10,000 feet. Yeah, but, you know, I'm gonna be going from Denver to Durango. Okay. And when you go that direction, you start out-I'm in Denver at, you know, 5,500. Right. 18:33 And I don't cross 9,000 feet until, I think, until the sec- near the end of the second day. Okay. So it's gonna give me a chance to kind of work into it. Right. 18:42 Um, I'm hoping that this trip, you know, out to the Wind River Range is gonna help because pretty much that whole trail is gonna be above 10,000. Gotcha. 18:50 Um, so I'm, you know, even though there's gonna be three weeks in between, and I think that's a little bit of a stretch to get any kind of acclimatization bump, I'm hoping that helps a little bit too. Okay. Yeah. 19:00 Cool, cool. And you just want to finish. That's the goal. Yeah, I wanna have a good time. Yeah. I mean- Okay... you know, it... 19:09 The, part of my mi- mentality going into this, and we kind of talked about, you know, this on our notes of our, you know, the mindset change- Down the road, yeah... or whatever. Yeah. But, um- We can get into it. 19:17 It's fine. Yeah, so, you know, racing on a tandem, you always roll the dice. It's very easy for mechanically something to go wrong or just whatever. 19:25 You know, you got two people, so you got twice the chance that somebody's gonna not have their nutrition dialed or the hydration dialed or, you know, whatever. They gotta poop. Yeah, something. Okay. Yeah. 19:35 Um, you know, it, there, there's just a lot that can go wrong when you're racing a tandem, period. Yeah, yeah. So there's a lot that can go wrong [laughs] in a 100-mile race, tandem or no tandem. Mm-hmm. 19:45 So you combine those two factors, and then you end up combining in there, you know, the altitude thing, which is an environment that, you know, uh, James and Laurie have a lot of experience. 19:54 They, they've gone out several times and ended up doing races out there. Um, but nonetheless, you know, you, every time you go out there can be, you know, a different experience. 20:03 Your body can react a little bit differently. Sure. So, you know, you roll all that in there, and it's like I don't wanna put all my eggs in the Leadville basket. Mm-hmm. 20:11 Um, you know, I, I don't care that much about race results, and then, you know, it's just, it seems like a really, really, really good opportunity to be disappointed because stuff out of my control went wrong. Yeah. 20:22 So what is in my control is to have a badass time for two weeks and do the Colorado Trail. Sure. 20:29 And, you know, if I get out there and I'm like, "Pfft, this is wearing me out too much for Leadville," or, you know, "The altitude's kicking my butt more so"- Back down the hill you go... 20:40 or, yeah, whatever, then okay, so then I just hang out in the Colorado high country and- Literally, yes. Yeah, and then ride on back. Right, yeah. And I'm good to go. I don't have to finish it. Right. 20:51 You know, I really wanna finish it. You know, it's, it's a big goal to finish the Colorado Trail. However, I'm not tied to it. Gotcha. 20:57 No, that's, that's a good f- frame of mind going into, going into that trip, you know? So you'll be out there two and a half weeks? Yeah. Yep. Okay. Right around that. Cool, cool. 21:07 And that's kind of been a recent, um, I guess just to share some in- I don't know. I, I think it's kind of interesting what's been going on. Last year we had, I don't know, half a dozen at least, uh, racer boys- Yeah... 21:22 going into 100-milers, local 100-milers. Yep. Um, hitting local, um, regional races, that kind of stuff. And this year, it's a completely different mind, 21:33 frame of mind because no one's really into that thing right now, and we're kind of having a little bit more fun this year. Yeah, yeah. Um- Well, and, you know, there's, there's a lot of different things. 21:41 It seems like the, the race mentality's kind of waned a little more in recent years- Mm-hmm... um, you know, among a lot of us. 21:47 But then, I mean, uh, you know, I feel like this is almost a topic for a whole nother podcast, but it's like, you know, there's been several different people locally that have started running into heart issues, and not like from unhealthy living, but, you know, uh, a lot of times, you, you know, either genetic or it's attributed to basically being a hardcore endurance athlete for years and years and years and years and years. 22:12 Yeah. Um, you know, it's like if you, if, if anybody's followed, you know, some of the things that have gone on with, like, Leonard Zinn, who writes for VeloNews- Right... and some people like that. 22:20 You know, there's a book that was recently published called The Haywire Heart. Haywire Heart. 22:23 Um, you know, it kind of ties into that, and it's, like, your incidents of, you know, having different heart issues, a lot of times it's, you know, some sort of, um, you know, atrial defibrillation or, you know, something like that, you know, where you get an irregular heartbeat or, you know, you end up having a racing heartbeat or whatever. 22:39 Uh, quit talking about me, Ken. [laughs] Um, you know- Thanks... a l- a lot of, that, your, your chances of having that happen are considerably higher for, you know, really hardcore athletes. Right. 22:50 You know, people that are, like, training really hard and doing, you know, these extreme events, like 100-milers. No, and now that, I mean, now that w- like I said, it's an organic conversation. 22:59 Now that you bring that up, that would be, that'd be a good, uh, topic of, of fat camp down the road because not only myself, but another guy that we ride with have run into that problem recently, which is part of the reason that everything's kind of chilled out, at least for me. 23:13 Yeah. Um- No, exactly. I mean, it's just, I mean, that throws a big wrench in things, you know? 23:16 And- And I wonder if people that are, that are, that listen to us maybe will be like, "Holy shit, that's, I went down that road too," you know? Yeah. And what we're finding out is it's not uncommon. 23:25 Um, and so n- what, what happens is that two of us get it, and then all of a sudden people are like, "Whoa, shit, I don't want that to happen to me." Yeah. "I better, I wanna slow down too and enjoy the ride." 23:34 Well, and, you know, the thing is, it's, it's very easily as, like, an athlete to, like, keep pushing and pushing and pushing- Yeah... and, you know, and, and be really driven. 23:42 And, you know, most of the people that are gonna be acting like that in their athletic life are also acting like that in their, you know, professional life and, you know, their personal life. 23:54 So it's really easy for, you know, you to get, to be really intense in a lot of different areas and have a lot of stress in your life. 24:01 And, you know, I know for myself I've always dealt with stress through cycling and things like that. 24:06 And, you know, it's been a very effective way to deal with stress, but it, you know, this, this is, this is a case where there's a lot of research that's starting to come out about, okay, there are long-term ramifications about that. 24:16 Okay, you might have been able to get through the moment and deal with the stress appropriately and, you know, feel like it was a healthy thing. Right. 24:22 But, you know, you still really stress the crap out of your body and your heart specifically. Sure. And that, you know, that isn't a healthy thing to do. Yeah. 24:29 So, you know, I mean, as I talk about going up and riding 45 miles a day- Sure... for, you know, 10 days and going up the Wind River Range and doing th- this crazy high route thing, which is supposed to be- Right... 24:41 like super duper hard. And then doing Leadville. Yeah, and then doing Leadville- And up to 12,000 feet... and all this kind of stuff. You know, hypocrite me, um, probably needs to chill out. 24:48 But at the same time, I feel like it's, it's a k-I, I feel like I'm shifting, personally, I'm shifting more to the, the bikepacking mindset, where it's more about getting out and having an experience, having a good time, you know, taking things in. 25:04 It's not about, okay, I gotta crush, you know, my competitors- Right... or whatever. I haven't set any Strava PRs this year. [laughs] On, on, on purpose. 25:15 Um, I wanna get back to bikepacking, but I also wanna talk about what kind of tires you're gonna run out there at, um, at Leadville. The- On the tandem. Oh, on the tandem? How many people wanna know that? 25:23 I'm gonna end up using the Maxxis Chronicles. Okay. Um- And those... Oh, excuse me. Those are, um- It's a, it's a 29 by 3. So- Two- So, uh- 2.3? Yeah. Yep. Okay. 25:33 So yeah, I guess, you know, let's just talk equipment setup because we are a technical podcast. Yes, let us. Um, so okay, this, this- Take me through the tandem. 25:40 This is the same, uh, Quiring fat bike tandem that I raced at Chequamegon- Okay... with James Gomez. Um, in that case, I raced four-inch tires front and rear. Um, 25:52 you know, I, my normal setup is to run like a, a 2XL on the front and then run, um, a Lou on the rear- Okay... you know, in the winter and stuff. But what I did is I built up a second wheel set for this. Right. 26:02 So it's, it's a 29-plus wheel set. Um- Wow, what width on the rims? Uh, I'm trying to remember. Um- Oh, I asked a dumb question. I... No, I, I... 26:11 No, exact- Yeah, I've, I've been building too many wheels for people and stuff- [laughs]... and it all kind of like blends together. I, if I remember correctly, I ended up going with the WTB, um, the, the Scrapers. Okay. 26:21 Um, and I think I ended up going with the 45-millimeter width, if I remember correctly. Aluminum. Right. Yeah, I went with aluminum. Yeah. Yeah. Because you got sketched out on the carbon. Yeah. 26:31 Well, okay, so, you know, with a tandem, you typically have to run fairly high tire pressures- Yeah... because otherwise you have to worry about, um, impact damage to rims. 26:38 You know, it's like you can, you can pinch flat 'em or bottom out the tire very easily. Okay. 26:42 So, you know, you've gotta run higher pressures, and a lot of the carbon rims are very specific about saying you can't run higher pressures, otherwise you can crack 'em. Okay. 26:51 So, you know, aluminum rims, I mean, you can get a decently wide rim. You know, it's a good price. 26:57 Um, I know the thing's gonna be, like, super strong and super stiff because, you know, I've got, in the rear of that thing, I've got a, you know, a 190 hub, so- Yeah... 27:05 you know, I know I can build a bomber wheel, and if I happen to bottom the tire out and dent the crap out of the rim, oh, well. What, um, t- what hub do you have on the back of that thing? Is it a 909? Uh, no. 27:18 I ended up, uh, using a, um, a Hope hub. Okay. And it's laced to a 45 mil internal- Yep... WTB Scraper? Yep. And then you got a Chronicle 29 by 3 on there. Yep. Yeah, and I'm, I'm a big fan of the Chronicles. 27:33 Um, they, they seem to roll really well. They got really good, aggressive side knobs. And, you know, Maxxis has got a really good reputation for casing durability. Okay. Um- Right... 27:42 so, you know, it kind of is, is the perfect combination. What are... Do you know, can you recall the casing, uh, dur- the compound on that? Is it one of their new ones, or? It's, it's the EXO casing on it. Okay. Yeah. 27:54 Okay. I don't remember m- too many other details about it. They, it's, they don't, they- They got double down and silk screen and- No, it, it's none of that stuff. Okay. 28:00 Yeah, it's just, it's, it's their basic EXO casing. Okay. Yeah. I, I wanna say it's a triple compound tread. 28:06 Um, and, you know, I'd ridden 'em a while ago, and they're a little on the heavy side for a single compared to some of the other tires. And, um, they're... 28:17 Y- you know, like, with a, with a lot of plus tires you can get by with less knobs, especially in, you know, this type of area. 28:22 So, you know, like, if you look at the Chupacabra or something like that, you know, it's, it's not got a lot of knob on it. Right. But it's got so much surface area that it kinda makes up for it. Okay. 28:30 So the Chronicle's got more knob than that, especially side knob, and it, when you get into softer trail conditions, those knobs churn up the s- you know, the sand and the dirt and stuff like that, and cause more rolling resistance. 28:44 Yeah. So, um, it wasn't an ideal tire, in my opinion, for a single, um, for a lot of stuff, but it, it is really damn nice on a tandem. 28:55 Um, and I think, you know, if you're riding a little more aggressively or if you're riding more on rocks and some stuff like that, it's, is a really good tire on a single then. 29:01 I bet in two months you'll be able to tell us a lot more about your tire choice than you- Oh, yeah... you know, as, as you reflect upon it r- rather than, uh, futurize on it. Yeah. Futurize? [laughs] What the fuck? 29:13 [laughs] Okay. Making up words again. Right. Okay. Well, good. Uh, what kind of fork are you running on that tandem? Oh, yeah, that's right. Yeah. So I'm running a MRP, um, I think it's called the Stoke. 29:23 Um, it's, it's actually... I'm trying to remember the, uh, what the names of their forks are. I think it's the- Oh... Stages, is their kind of, like, in between... It's, it's a 34 mil stanchion, uh, fork, 34, 35. 29:38 You know, so it's kind of like your, your all-around trail fork. Okay. 29:41 But what they do is they, they basically take that fork, which is a pretty rigid fork, and then they put different internals in it, and they limit the travel. So it's a 100 mil fork. Okay. Um, it's fairly stiff. 29:55 Um, it's got, you know, plenty of clearance for a three-inch tire on it. Okay. So nice combo. Now, at Leadville you're not taking big hits though, are you? I mean, it's pretty much smooth. 30:03 Um, I mean, there's, there's some downhills where you're gonna end up being- Maybe chundery?... pretty rocky. Yeah, exactly. Okay. 30:08 Maybe not quite chunder, but I mean, you're gonna have a lot of baby heads and stuff like that. Okay. So, you know, you're g- I, I definitely want a fork. Um- No lockout on it? 30:16 Y- um, yes, but it's not, it's not like on my, um, my Fox 34, which, like, completely locks out. Right, right. It, it's kind of a soft lockout, but- Like a bike lockout... but at the same time- Yeah... 30:28 it's kind of perfect. Like, we've been doing a lot of, um, test riding around on it, and I can climb out of the saddle, um, and the fork doesn't really bob. Okay. So it's, it's kind of... 30:38 It's, it's got a, it's got a pretty low threshold for blowoff. Yeah. It's, it's a... I mean, it's, it's the best thing I've ridden in a while for a tandem. 30:45 So for this fat tandem converted to plus tandem, will you use some frame bags on there for the race? Um, d-Probably not. I think what I'm gonna... 30:55 I mean, I'm almost gonna have to run a Camelbak because on a tandem, um, you- How many bottles can you get on your tandem? I think s- six or- Can you get six?... seven. I might even be able to get eight. 31:05 Um, it's got a lot of bosses. Okay. All right. But the problem is, taking your hands off the bars to drink- Right, right, right... some of the times is just, it's not feasible in a race scenario- Right... on a tandem. 31:14 So I'm pretty much guaranteed I'm gonna be riding with a Camelbak. Okay. Um, and then, uh, you know, we, it's a, you know, it's just gonna be more convenient to go that way. 31:23 And then we can swap out bladders, you know, at the aid stations. Um, I'll end up having basically one for each aid station. Any idea what, um, n- without riders and without pedals- [laughs]... 31:37 what the weight of that, um, complete bike's gonna be? Hmm, I'm not 100% sure. Um- I have a scale that could weigh it. I just bought one. [laughs] You dork. [laughs] Uh, I, I think it's gonna end up being low 40s. 31:53 Really? Yeah. Wow. Yeah, I mean, it's, it's, it's a pretty light setup. Um- Huh... I'm gonna end up going with the Eagle on it. Okay. Um- No shit. Yeah. Are you going with XX1, or are you gonna go with the GX? 32:05 Um, I'm actually probably... So I, I... This is... So I have a quiver of bikes. [laughs] Okay. Um, yeah, it's like, I mean- Really? Yeah. I, I've got a bunch of bikes. And, um, what I want... 32:20 You know, it's like, and I swap drivetrains around between them. Yeah, it's hilarious. 32:23 So yeah, and, and this is, this is kind of getting away from your question, but, so, um, what- I forget what my question is, so go ahead. Yeah. 32:30 What I wanna do is, um, get one, like, good, lightweight Eagle group so that that's kinda like my travel group. So you want the XX? I'm probably gonna go with XO. [sighs] Yeah. Damn. So... 32:45 And I'm gonna drop some coin on that. Holy shit. But- Yeah... yeah, so I'm gonna have, I'm gonna have that. Okay. And when I'm... 32:51 The other thing is n- you know, I c- I made that decision to go that route, and I've already acquired some of the stuff for it. This is recent news. I haven't heard of this, folks. Okay. Yeah. 32:58 [laughs] This is, like, hot off the press. [laughs] Um, and then after I had gotten that, then they released the GX version of Eagle. Yeah. And I'm like- And my eyes lit up. I was like, "Hell yeah, that's me"... 33:08 yeah, and it, well, and what I was thinking is, okay, bikepacking the Colorado Trail, like, when I'm- Yeah... you know, like, you know, coming from, you know, 600 vertical feet- Right, right, right... 33:17 up to, you know, 10,000- Yeah... hell yeah. I'll- 30 by 50... I'll take a 50. That's my gear right there. [laughs] Yeah, exactly. 33:22 So, so what I'm gonna end up doing is I'm gonna probably, if, assuming that it's available and stuff, right now it's looking like, I think it was, uh, 7/16 QBP is gonna start getting- GX Eagle? Yeah. Okay. 33:34 So what I'm planning on doing is buying then a GX Eagle group. Okay. Then I'm gonna put it on my full suspension bike, which is what I'm gonna ride for the Colorado Trail. Dude, that cassette is, is so much weight. 33:46 [laughs] I'm just razzing him because he was, he was, been razzing me about my XT 11 speed and how much it weighs, and then the GX weighs the same amount for the 12 speed. Yeah, but you only have 1146. I wanna have 1050. 33:59 [sighs] Yeah, but the way I ride, I don't need 12. I just need 11. [laughs] I might even go back to eight speed. [laughs] No, so yeah, so I'm p- I'm pretty excited about Eagle, because I mean- That's cool, yeah... 34:10 yeah, I mean, it's, it's basically made for this. I didn't know this. I mean, you're just revealing it right now. Holy shit. [laughs] That's a whole nother... There's a podcast right there. 34:16 Yeah, so I'm, I'm really looking forward to getting on Eagle. I'm, I'm excited- Cool... about that. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I don't need it around here, you know, I mean, heck, I entered- Oh, yes, you do. 34:23 [laughs] Yes, you do. You better ride the crap out of that around here. I rode 10 speed forever around here, just because- Heck, you rode just five speed, seven speed. You know? 34:31 Yeah, I know, but I mean, it's like, you know, one by 10 was plenty. You know, it's like having that 36 tooth was more than enough. Right, right, right. You know, 1136. Yeah. 34:39 And, you know, I, it still would be plenty for me. The problem is- [laughs] That's what, that's what the, uh, specialized plus bike for the kids have, is an 11... It's a, it's a 10 speed, but it goes up to 36. Yeah. 34:50 I was like, damn. Yep. Anyway. But, you know- Yeah... it's like, I always would play around with chainrings and stuff. Right, right. 34:56 So then when I ended up going with the 11 speed, and I got 1042, okay, I don't have to end up swapping out chainrings. 35:01 I can, I can basically ride the same thing on our normal mountain bike trails or go to some crazy moto trail, and I'm good. Right. You know? 35:08 Um, I might end up swapping out and putting in a littler chainring if I'm gonna go down to Pisgah or something, you know? Right, right, right. Um- Which we're gonna do. Oh, yeah. Yeah. 35:15 Definitely planning on doing that again next spring. Exactly. Um, but with the Eagle, I mean, now all of a sudden- Yeah... it's like, it, it really, really ex- you know, extends some stuff. 35:26 And it's like, for those, for, for trips where I'm, like, doing just crazy stuff with crazy steep climbs or altitude or whatever- Front chainring... yeah. Just change it out as you, as necessary. Yeah. 35:36 And it's like, I don't n- need to do that. I can probably end up running, like, my usual 34, 36 and be totally fine. There's probably a bunch of guys in Pisgah and Colorado... 35:45 No, there's probably a couple guys in Pisgah or Colorado that l- that listen to this podcast- [laughs]... and they're like, "You're stupid for going one by" I don't know. 35:53 I mean, you- Yeah, I w- I'm sure there's people out there, but I mean- Changing front chainrings is so easy, though. Holy cow. Yeah. You know? Yeah. 36:00 Yeah, it, and then, you know, it's like I'm running the camo system on my full suspension bike now, so- Okay... yeah, and I don't... Have we even talked about my full suspension bike on here? 36:07 Um, it's been, I've been putting, uh, centerfolds on the Instagram about it. Yeah, yeah, I think- People have been like, "Ooh, la, la, la." Yeah. 36:14 So I've, um, I've got acquiring full suspension bike that can run 29 plus- Yeah... and it's pretty rad. Yeah. I guess that's kind of the, the gist of this. Right. 36:21 So, you know, it, it gives me the opportunity to run around on the moto trails with a full suspension on a plus bike. So what are you gonna take out, what are you gonna ride on the Colorado Trail, then? 36:31 Are you gonna ride the 29- I'm gonna ride the full suspension bike... full suspension 29 plus? Yeah, and I'm, I'm having, um- Oh, dude, you can't ride 29 plus on a full suspension bike. 36:40 [laughs] But no, I'm, I'm probably- That's ridiculous. I'm not, I'm probably not gonna run 29 plus. I'm gonna probably run two point sixes. So I'm, I'm looking at running the Nobby Nic. Well, wait a minute, then. 36:48 Is 2.6 a plus or not? Well, I think we've had that conversation before. Geez Louise. You know? I mean, everyone's coming out with 20- But-... two point sixes... 36:54 the, the, the reason, the reason why I'm not going plus is 'cause there isn't a lot of sand, and there's some pretty extensive, um... Like, you, there's wilderness sections along the, the actual Colorado Trail. Yeah. 37:06 So there's bike reroutes. And-Um, I mean, like one of them, like fairly early in the ride, it's like 60, 70 miles long. Yeah. So... And you're not on- Oh, I see... paved roads. Okay. 37:17 But I don't wanna end up having a plus bike, you know? Yeah. It's like I wanna- 'Cause that-... have something that's gonna roll a little better. Right. I was just gonna say that in Pisgah, you really enjoyed the 29+. 37:24 Oh, I loved it. Yeah. But I guess you weren't packing though. No. It, it- You know, you were just- It's a... Well, and I mean, and that's a whole different thing. I mean, that's- Right. Right... super rugged terrain. 37:33 Right. And it's like... And I was... You know, I, I tried out running 2.6s front and rear, the, the Schwalbe Nobby Nics. 37:40 And then the other setup I ran was a, a 2.6 Nobby Nic on the rear and a Minion 3.0 on the front, and that Minion was so rad. Really? I loved that thing. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. 37:51 So I mean, that, that's a place where, you know, a plus tire like that can be really cool. Well, we f- we fell in love with Maxxis, you know, a couple months ago- [laughs]... unbeknownst to us, but holy shit. 38:02 Um, you, you saw the fire jumping. I mean, y- you know where... You, [laughs] you know what we're talking about, folks, if you follow us on... Oh, Fat Camp Podcasters- Plural... at, at plural, at the Instagram. 38:12 Um, join the fun. It's... I actually... I've... Dude, I've been trying to actively t- put up shit on the Instagram, which is- [laughs] I've gone live a couple times. I mean, this live stuff is scary what you can do. 38:25 [laughs] It's crazy. Especially when you're showing the, the 15-pack of beer that we're gonna go hide- That worked out-... in the woods... perfect, man. Great. We made s- we made it... 38:33 We made- We made single speed great again. We did, and we did it with 29+, and we did it with 29 skinny, and we, we even had an outlaw show up with gears, and he swore not to shift, and that was... 38:43 He, he did- Yeah, I believe it... anyways. Yeah. Exactly. Um, can we get back to 20- 2.6 tires though? Yeah, yeah. Um- I don't know about it. I... Is it, is it plus? Is it, is it baby plus? 38:54 Is it, is it, like, toddler fat? I, I think luckily we're finally at a point where we can kinda start to break down some of these, like, terminology barriers. Or is there even a point, I mean, to, to label it as such? 39:08 That's what I was gonna say. The labels don't really make a difference. I think 26 is pretty darn cool. Text from Gomez. Go ahead. 2.6 is pretty darn cool? Yeah, I think so. Yeah. 39:17 I mean, I rode the Nobby Nics, and, you know- Are they true 2.6? N- uh, they're a little bit undersized. I had them on- What size rim? Yeah, I think it was- What kind of pressure? 39:26 [laughs] I think it was like a 35 millimeter internal width rim. Okay. It might have been 38 millimeter internal. Okay. 39:33 Um, so, you know, not a super wide rim, but, you know, a decently wide rim, and they measured out at 2.55. So- Ah... you know, if, if I had it- Ah... on a 50 millimeter rim, I would get the 2.6. Right, right, right. 39:44 But- Yeah... um, yeah, so but... No. The, the good part about it is it, it does... It get... It is the happy medium because it... 39:52 A lot of times, when you end up being on a f- f- you know, full on plus bike, um, you've got great float, but sometimes the bounce can be bad. Like- Okay... 40:02 if you, if you're launching off a jump and you land it wrong- Sh- my middle name. [laughs] Um, you know, you c- you basically can start to fold the tire. You can- Yeah, yeah... get some weird characteristics. Right. 40:15 You know, there's, there's a lot of situations like that when you're riding really aggressively and you're, you know, you're getting off the ground, where a plus tire, eh, it's, it's... 40:22 It, it can, it can kinda get a little unruly. Um- So that might be where a smaller plus- Yeah. Well, that's... And that's the reason why they've talked about, like, the 2.8 inch tires being, like, the ideal plus size. 40:34 Now they're talking 2.6. Well- I think 2.6 is a happy medium. Who... Is... And is everybody in on the 2.6? Pretty much. I mean, if you look at it, you know, Michelin's out there. Um, you know, d- we've got the Travail. 40:47 Uh, they've got... And I'm so stoked about this. They've got, you know, a, a 27 and a half by 2.8, but then they also are doing a 29 point, um, 2.6. Um- 27 and a half, 2.8? Yeah. That sounds interesting. 41:01 [laughs] That's what you got on, yeah, your bike, dude. That's... Yeah. I... That's, that's what's in my world right now. Yes. And they got a... Okay. So, you know- So Michelin, Travail... 41:09 they, they're doing the 29 by 2.6. Right. Um, they've got two tires in that realm. Okay. So they're, they're kinda like doubling down on that. Um, you know, Schwalbe's got the Nobby Nic. 41:18 Um, Maxxis is running a couple different tires. Okay. Um, you know, it's like there's, there's a- All the dominoes are just going down. Yeah, because, you know, what's happened is that, you know, it... 41:28 They're kinda starting to realize, okay, a 2.6 fits on a lot of stuff. Yeah. You know, it fits on a lot of bikes. It fits in a lot of forks. [can opening] Oh, yeah. 41:38 Um, so- Well, this was the airport conversation that we had before. Yeah. Yeah. Was like two point,.2 inch increments are appropriate and fucking cool. It is. So- Yeah. Ooh, sorry. They're really cool. Sorry, Chad. 41:53 [laughs] Jeez, oh, Pete. No. And, and you're, you're 100% right though. I mean, it's like, I mean, we should end up seeing, you know, a 2.2, a 2.4, a 2.6, a 2.8, and a 3. Yeah. And, you know, it's like- 2 point... 42:05 .2 increments in my world is, like, huge to my wife. [laughs] Um, but no, it, it- Ah... and it's... That will allow you to kind of, like, tweak, okay, how soft a surface am I riding on? Right. 42:18 You know, how aggressive am I riding, you know? And- Well, and on chainrings you go 30, 32, 34, 36. I mean, two teeth, how big of a difference can it make? Yeah. And, and we- It can... 42:27 Yeah, exactly, and we need that full spectrum just- Right... you know, for tires or chainrings, either way. God, make cycling great again. That's right. You know? Make mountain biking just amazing, uh, globally. 42:38 [laughs] You know? Jeez, oh, Pete. No, I... 42:40 You know, it's like I don't wanna end up having a million SKUs from, you know, the bike manufacturers, but at the same time, I d- I really do think, you know, there's certain treads that just, you know, should end up being kind of across the board. 42:51 But, I mean, at the same time I say that, you know, there, there is a time and a place for a more traditional mountain bike tire, something that's in the, you know, the 2.2 to 2.4 range. Right. 43:01 Um, 'cause we've had just a crap ton of rain lately. Yeah. 43:06 And, you know, I've done a several rides, and our, our trails drain very well, but at the same time, it will still pool, and you'll still end up getting some, like, muddy, like, just greasy spots and stuff like that. 43:16 Right. We gotta go back to the swamp and fill in those holes, by the way. Yeah, we do. Okay. 43:19 Um, but, um, it amazes me how much better in some of those situations a skinnier tire rides than a fatter tire'Cause the fat tire tends to just plane on, you know, nice smooth mud. Right. Yeah, a nice layer of grease. 43:36 Yeah. Not grease- Grease... grease. [laughs] Whereas, you know, like a skinnier tire, what it's gonna do is it's gonna, it's gonna basically dig down deeper into the mud. It's gonna find traction someplace underneath. 43:47 Welcome to Tire Talk with Ken Blakey Schell. Yeah. [laughs] It's kind of like Coffee Talk with Paul Baldwin- [laughs]... back in the day. So, um, do you have a 2.6-inch tire in your quiver? 44:01 Yeah, I've got the Knobby Nicks. Okay. Yeah. Oh, and tho- uh, on the, uh, full suspension Quarry. Well, they're not on there right now. Okay. I've been, I've been, I've been playing around. 44:09 I've been bouncing back and forth between, um, a 2.35 Racing Ralph front and rear, and then going with a variety of different plus tires- Gotcha... depending on where I'm riding and then- Trying to figure it out... 44:19 yeah, just kinda trying to see where, you know, the, no pun intended, pluses and minuses are. Um- [laughs] Yeah. He's a witty one, isn't he? [laughs] Jeez. 44:28 Um, s- but I wanted to get back to, that was a nice, that was a nice kinda foray into the organic world of our conversations about- Mm... the 2.6 inch party that we're having from Eagle, is where that went to. 44:40 Yeah, yeah. Um, bike packing. You got your first little taste. Yeah, I, yeah. I, there's several very extremely inappropriate things I'd like to say about bike packing, but- [laughs]... 44:52 let me just put it this way, that's what I wanna do. It's, I mean, it's awesome. That's how I wanna ride. I mean, it- It, how long did it take? How many miles did it take before I was like, fell into it? 45:02 We, it was less than five miles. And I was like- And you were like, "Oh my God"... I understand. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, and it's just, I, there's something about the mindset. Oh. 45:12 There's something about the way the bike rides. Oh, it's just- There's just everything... this big heavy bike going down these hoopy, swoopy trails is... [whooshing] Yeah, it's like dirt surfing big time. Like, holy cow. 45:22 And then a- a- any time you get to a hill, you just click, click, click, click, click, click, click, and just wind yourself up. Well, and, and you welcome going slow- Yeah... 45:30 and listening to the birds- Oh, there's, yeah... and looking around and- Oh, the birds are crazy. Yeah. Oh. Yeah, it's just, you know, it's like there's so much goodness with it. 45:37 Buffed out single track, uh, old, um, forest two-track, gravel roads, um, snowmobile trail, um, uh, aggressive, steep North Country Trail. I mean, we hit it all. Yeah. 45:54 And then we moved a tree. [laughs] You son of a bitch. [laughs] Yeah, and that's where Andy's troubles began. Ugh. Slipped disc, pinched nerve. Uh, uh, fortunately though, the, the riding... 46:08 What we did is we, we did North Country Trail, we did a section of North Country Trail, um, which goes from, uh, North Dakota to New York. 46:17 Well, yeah, we, we did one small section- We did one small section of- [laughs] Between North Dakota and then south- Right... Maryland. [laughs] Which, which runs- New York... through Manistee County. Yeah. 46:24 Um, it was perfect. It, we got everything, man. It, it was great. And we moved a tree, and I slipped a disc and I was like, "Oh, I'm out." Ken was like, "No, no, you need medication. This is what you need. 46:35 You need- Yeah, man... this type of medication. You need this type of medication." Get alcohol. And I was like, I was like, "Ah, I don't know." 46:41 So I ended up making it all the way up to the campsite, which- Was an absolutely idyllic place. It, oh, yeah. It was, yeah, it was heaven. Yep. It was amazing. It was. I, I wish I could've stayed. 46:52 It was, I got, I swung the leg off my bike, and I couldn't walk, so, um- Yeah, you made a good call probably- Yep... bang one. I, uh- Probably... 47:00 called the, uh, wife, and, uh, she drove about 40 minutes to pick me up, and, uh, that was it, but bike packing, though, oh my gosh, if you haven't done it. Yeah. Well, there's- It's a little bit of investment... 47:14 a little bit, but there's, if you hunt around, you can find do it yourself stuff where you can build a lot of the gear yourself. Oh, yeah, DIY bike packing stuff. 47:22 Yeah, if, if you wanna go cheap- There's a YouTube channel for that... there's plenty of ways you can go cheap. I mean- Strap a dry bag front and back, you know? Yeah. Backpack the damn thing. Yep. You know? 47:30 Yep, exactly. There's, there's a million ways to do it. 47:32 You know, I think, you know, a lot of bike manufacturers and stuff like that are trying to kind of sell a lifestyle and sell products and, you know, and, and there's kind of a, 47:41 a very traditional bike packing kind of rig setup, but there's a lot of variation in it. And if you're just gonna plan on doing, like, even in an overnighter or whatever, you don't have to spend jack shit for money. 47:52 Right. And you can have a good setup. Well, and the overnighter was just like, holy fricking shit, you know? Well, it's just, it's, what's so nice- That was, that was enough. 48:04 Yeah, what's so nice about the bike packing is- I just texted, uh, Gomez, and I meant to text my wife. [laughs] Oh, crap. Oh, that could be really inappropriate. Anyway, um, yeah, I just wanted to do a shakedown. 48:17 I wa- I, I bought gear. You know, I spent probably, I didn't, I don't think I spent 200 bucks for my bags- Mm-hmm... stove. Yep. I mean, I had backpacking stuff from back in the day. 48:29 Um, and maybe 200 bucks, and y- uh, definitely have to be fatter plus. I, I don't, I see pictures of people doing it on skinny tires. I, I think it depends on- Man, that's-... your trails... that'd just be shady though. 48:43 I mean- Well, I mean-... that's a lot of weight. I, it's, I, I agree, but it's like you gotta bump up your pressures a little bit more. Yeah. 48:50 And it's like, you know, there's, there's a lot of situations where if you're not in softer conditions, then it would be just fine. 48:57 It's just around here, you know, it, that amount of weight, all of a sudden you start feeling like the bike's knifing around a lot. Right. 49:04 So that's where, you know, like for our little slice of heaven in the Midwest, I mean, I have to admit, you know, a plus bike is kind of a gimme when it comes to the bike packing thing. I think it's perfect. 49:14 It just, it really helps out. Unless, unless you're doing, like, a lot of, you know, Forest Service two-tracks or some really gnarly trails. Well, I can even s- I can, I, I now understand why 49:23 fat bikes and bike packing go together. Yeah, and plus bikes and bi- you know- Yeah... pack- bike packing. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Oh, yeah, totally. No, I 100% agree. Yeah. 49:31 Yeah, no, it, it's a re- it's a really good match. And 49:34 you know, I, uh, I-I kind of feel like a broken record, but I can't emphasize enough, you know, kind of the, the, like, the, and I don't, I don't wanna sound cliche or whatever, but just, just do it kind of mentality to this. 49:44 Yeah. It's like, you know, if you haven't gone out and gone bikepacking, or even if you have, just get out there. Do an overnighter. Right. Do something little. 49:51 Because, you know, there's something just so amazing about having all your crap on your bike and having nothing to do all day but ride your bike, and then- And look at shit... chill out. 50:02 Yeah, chill out in the woods at- Eat... that night. Yep. And then ride your bike some more the next day. Right. I mean, it's just- Well, and I always thought it was just, like, a epic, you know, Tour Divide thing. 50:11 But then, you know, you were like, "Hey, we can do, like, a 10-mile bikepacking ride." Yeah. "We can ride our bikes 10 miles south, set up a tent, and go walk around for the next eight hours, you know?" Yeah. 50:24 But it, it, it definitely is... it definitely was a, uh, an eye-opener. Yeah. I mean, that's stupid to say- There's the-... but that's what it was. No, but it's just, I mean, that's the thing. It's, like, the, it's... 50:34 there's so many ways it gets marketed because, you know, you've got people doing all this extreme stuff, and it's really cool stuff, you know, but you don't have to. 50:42 You just, I mean, the, the bliss is just getting out there and doing it. Right. You know? Yeah. It was, it was... I love it. I'm doing it again. We're gonna plan another trip. 50:50 If anybody wants to go, um, get ahold of us through our Gmail account. That's fat, uh, fatcamppodcasters- [laughs] Plural... uh, @gmail.com. We're gonna probably do a late August trip, I think. 51:04 Um, that'll be the most opportune time. I'm heading out to, uh, Montana with the family. Ken's got Colorado shit going on. Um, late August, get ahold of us. Come along with us. Ha. [laughs] We're going to roll the dice. 51:18 Hopefully, you're cool. We're gonna do a, we're gonna do a bikepacking trip, and I think we're gonna take Kevin with us. Yeah, hopefully we can go in the fall, too. Um- Yeah. Yeah. 51:26 You know, I think there's, I mean- Leave after work on a Friday. Psh. Yeah. Fresh. And then, and that's exactly it. That's what you need. It's like, you can't imagine how stoked you're gonna be all week- Yeah... 51:35 thinking about doing this, and then- And then how far that's gonna ride you out. That's gonna ride you out another two weeks. Yeah. Yeah. That's what I mean. 51:41 It's, like, it's just a whole lot of awesome injected in your life. Oh, very cool. Yeah. So- Um, not, not a lot of tech talk on this. I get... 51:49 this is the, uh, hey, where, where the hell have you been, you know, uh, Fat Camp. Um, but, uh, one tech thing I do wanna talk about, and we're gonna do this after the break 'cause 52:01 w- we have, we've been talking for 45 minutes straight now. Yeah, we've been talking a long time. Um, I want, I wanna talk about [laughs], I wanna talk about, uh, width of tires. Okay. And what's appropriate when. 52:12 [laughs] So- I thought we already talked about that, kinda. No, no. We didn't, we didn't do the whole thing. Okay. We, I wanna break it down from two point all the way up to five point. Okay. Yeah. So be right back. 52:24 [upbeat music] Hidey ho. 52:45 Welcome back. Welcome back to, uh, Fat Camp Podcast. Don't forget to check us out on the Instagram at fat pa- fat pan. 52:52 [laughs] Fatcamppodcasters, plural, uh, at the Instagram, and also email us at fatcamppodcasters, that's plural, @gmail.com. 53:04 Uh, a- anyway, um, one last thing we wanna talk about, because we did 53 minutes without anything, is, um, when... w- the question that, here's the question that's come up. 53:14 It even came up two nights ago when we were doing the Single Speed Festival, is when is it appropriate, when is a five-inch tire appropriate over a 4.8-inch tire appropriate versus a 4.6-inch tire o- over a four-inch tire o- over a three-inch tire- Ha... 53:30 hell, even a 2.1-inch tire? And my response when you brought this up is, oh my God. That's a- This is a huge topic. That's a whole 'nother podcast. Yeah. 53:40 A- 'cause I mean, there's so many nuances to it because, I mean, if, if I had to list off all the scenarios where, I don't know, a 4.6-inch tire was ideal, I mean, I would go on and on and on and on. 53:51 No, and over the course of, you know, 20-plus discussions that we've recorded and had over the last couple years, width of tire is something that comes up all the time. 54:01 I mean, it's just, I don't know if anybody who rides a plus or fat, fat bike gets sick of that discussion. I don't. No. No, well, get, because we're all trying to figure it out. Yeah. 54:11 You know, and it's, and then, and the, I, I guess the, the crux of what makes this so difficult to figure out is that, um... and I, I kinda have to talk about the road world because I feel like it's, it's the most 54:22 obvious example. Okay. Is that for years and years and years and years and years, people have talked about, and, and this, this does apply to, you know, the mountain bike world, too. 54:30 But, you know, the, the skinnier tire feels faster- Right... because it feels sketchier. Yeah. And- Yep... to suss out, okay, so th... 54:39 you know, this might be very mellow and not feel like I'm pushing the bike very hard, but you're g- you know, you are going faster- Right... on a fatter tire. Right. 54:48 You know, that your mind can play tricks on you- Yeah... in that respect. It's very, very, very, very easy. Gotcha. You know, it's, like- And that makes sense. So 54:56 there's a lot of times where, you know, you, you run into a softer condition, and you would run a fatter tire than you would think should be appropriate, and it ends up being really fast. 55:06 You know, and, and an example of this is, um, you know, a moto trail we've got locally called The, The Little O. Right. 55:13 And it's, it's highly variable because, um, if it's wet, you can run a plus bike and it's great, but if it, if it's dry, you know, then your traditional four-inch tire's great. 55:25 If it's super dry, all of a sudden- Right... you know, a 4.8-inch tire becomes cosmic. Sure. And, um, that is 100%, you know, how soft the surface is. Okay. 55:39 So the short to the long is-The hardness of the surface Yeah and, and, and don't go off of your perceptions of speed. You collect data Okay You know? 55:56 I, I don't think there's any better way to put it Well, and if you don't give a shit about speed, run what you run Yeah. 56:01 Run what you like to run because they are gonna have distinctly different feels Right You know, the, you know, a wider tire is gonna end up being more chill in a lot of respects. 56:07 If, if you're just kinda like moseying down the trail, it's gonna be way more mellow feeling, relaxed, however you wanna describe it. 56:16 You know, if you wanna end up feeling like you're riding on the knife's edge, you know, it like either because you're pushing the envelope so hard or, you know, that's just kinda the feel you wanna get out of your bike, go narrower. 56:27 Gotcha You know? Go on the more narrower end of the spectrum Yeah. Okay Now, the flip side of that is- Flip it... kinda like we talked about before, mud Nah, who rides in mud? 56:37 Oh, there's a lot of people that ride in mud. And it's like- I know. I rode in mud last weekend Yeah, exactly. 56:41 [laughs] Mud is so common, and it's like, and that flips this entire paradigm on its head because a lot of times, you know, the more you cut into the mud, the more absolute traction you have. 56:49 And having a big, fat, wide tire- Is like a ski. Yeah Yeah. You know, a big, fat wi- Stupid, stupid... wide tire is like, it's almost like a suction thing- Okay... 56:57 because you gotta like, you know, you gotta break the tire free from, you know, this wet surface And then it carries it with it [laughs] Or it carries it with it or it doesn't. 57:05 You know, it's like there's that kinda period where it's like, you know, it's, it's kinda thinking about wanting to end up sticking to the tire. 57:10 Right So you gotta like kinda almost like peel that stuff off your tire instead- Right... 57:13 of it sticking to your tire Right Um, you know, it's that whole thing that's going on where a, a wider tire feels a lot slower Gotcha. 57:21 Okay It's, you know, you have less traction and control and, you know, steerage, and you have, you know, more rolling resistance Okay. 57:29 Well, this discussion will continue as it always does about what, what width is appropriate when- Yep... 57:35 but I, I, that was, it was something that came up and I was like, "Let's talk about it" [laughs] Ken's like, "That's, that's just a can of worms you wanna open up" Well, but I mean, I think, I think if I remember the conversation you're talking about, what's, what happened was a friend of ours who recently got into, uh, riding, I'd, I would kinda describe it as a gravel bike- Yeah... 57:54 um, I mean, it, it isn't. He's riding an, a kind of an old-school cross bike that's got, you know, a fairly low slung geometry, so it'd be good for touring, too. 58:02 Mm-hmm And I turned him on to, uh, Compass tires Kevin Um, yep. Uh, and I, y- y- th- this is not, I don't think, anything we've talked about before, but, uh, Compass is this... 58:16 I'm gonna describe them as curmudgeonly, but that's totally the wrong way of putting it because they really suss out things from a technical standpoint, but they don't assume that new is better. 58:27 Okay Um, so they do a lot of- Curmudgeonly is appropriate then? Yeah, kind of very, very, very counterintuitive to what the bike industry is kinda pushing- Right... bikes. 58:38 You know, they're, they're, th- they've been advocates of big, fat tires for ages, and all these types of things. Um, different types of brakes. You know, they're not big fans of disc brakes- Ooh, that's suck, yeah... 58:47 you know, and stuff like that. And it's like, you know, some of us are like, "That's heresy. I mean, how, how can somebody not like disc brakes?" Right, right, right. [laughs] Disc brakes are awesome. 58:52 But you know, they, they present a pretty good argument for it. But, sorry, I'm getting away from my point. Um, tires. So they- [laughs]... 58:58 they make these tires that, um, are like a super, super, super supple casing, so it, it conforms to any kind of irregularity in the trail really well. Oh, now I know what you're talking about. Yeah Yeah. 59:11 Okay And they have just a really basic, you know, kinda like herringbone on the tire, and you look at these things and you're like, "Oh my God, this is gonna be so sketchy riding it on..." 59:21 You know, like I mean, I'll ride this stuff on, you know, single track, you know, really like sandy, you know, two tracks, and, and things like that. 59:28 I'll tell you what, I'm gonna put a picture of it up on the, uh- Okay, good... show notes. Yeah Yeah. But it ends up riding super, super, super, super, super duper well Why does that tread pattern work so well? 59:39 It's not necessarily the tread pattern. It's just, you know, you're dealing with a really big tire- Yeah... um, you know, bigger casing. It's very supple. 59:46 It's like, it's all the things that we love about tubeless tires and mountain bikes and, you know, it kinda started to bring that into the road world. 59:53 But so what happened is he's riding these tires that he's found it's like they're incredibly versatile. They, they work on regular pavement really well. 59:59 They work on, you know, these kinda gravel roads and sandy roads and two tracks- Yeah... and all sorts of, you know, and single track. Yeah, he did a century last weekend- Yeah, so he, yeah, he dropped-... 1:00:08 6,000 feet of climbing in a century. He averages 17 miles an hour on- It's all road. It's not- Completely road... any of these soft surface... 1:00:15 Yeah, and it's like, and people were like making fun of him the whole time because they're like- How wide are they? Are they 38s? Um, they're 36s- Okay... 1:00:22 as far as what they're labeled on the tire, but they measure out at a 38. Okay And people were making fun of him Why you got the fat tires, guy? Yeah. Yeah. And- He's like, " 'Cause I'm gonna crush you right now. 1:00:32 Watch this." [mimics tires] See ya Exactly. 1:00:34 And it's like there's a- aerodynamic, you know, like negatives that come into it, but when you're riding 17 miles an hour, there's not a lot of aerodynamic negatives to it Yeah, but over 100 miles for 6,000 feet, that's pretty good That's really good. 1:00:46 Yeah. Yeah So you know, that was kind of the genesis, and then- Right... I think, you know, it, it kind of expanded from there. 1:00:52 I mean, w- you know, like you mentioned sort of in your introduction about this long-winded section, you know, uh, piece on- Right, right... you know, what's the appropriate tire size? The appropriate length. 1:01:00 Yeah Um, you know, we ended up- The appropriate length... we had, we had a variety of tires out there. 1:01:04 Right You know, you were riding your old school Q Ball that had a very traditional setup, like, I mean- 2.25s, man Yeah, semi-slick on the rear Yeah. Kenda's, uh, Small Block Eight on the rear, man Yeah. 1:01:17 You know, so you ended up having that. Um, you know, I ended up having, you know, I had the, I, my contra mulit. 1:01:23 It was the party in the front, business in the back Right, right, right So a three-inch Chupacabra on the front and, um, a 2.35 Racing Ralph on the rear Ryan was, uh, three-point front and rear. 1:01:34 Kevin was three-point front and rear single speed. Yep. Yeah Everyone was single speed with various tire sizes Yeah, it was just, it was like all over the board- Yeah... 1:01:40 and we were all pretty equally matched Yeah, it was good. I had to be more careful Yeah, you definitely did I, I knew that I could take corners a lot faster than I was, but I was like, "Oh, I made that one. 1:01:50 Okay" [laughs] Actually, actually, I just put Kevin in front of me to slow me down [laughs] There you go. He'll never listen this far into the podcast, so it doesn't matter. No, he won't. 1:01:59 [laughs] He'd never hear that [laughs] Cool. Well, great. Holy cow. Hey, folks, we're backThe, the, the camp is alive, the camp is kicking, the camp is burning. 1:02:09 Um, we're gonna try to, um, do another one in another month. Um, just remember that- First trip down, check. Right, [laughs] exactly. Um, we, we got stuff going on, but, uh, we need... 1:02:22 We, we have these conversations, and then whenever we have these conversations, we try to record them, so, um- Unfortunately, we don't a lot of times. No. A lot of times we're like- Like, "This is a podcast right now." 1:02:31 Yeah. Riding down, yeah, "This is a topic we should talk about." Geez, w- can you record it on an iPhone and then transfer it over to this? I'm sure we can. Ooh, that'd be crazy. Yeah. But anyway. All right- Um-... 1:02:40 cutting in mid-ride, we have to talk about- [laughs] Right, exactly, exactly. Here we are right now- [laughs]... with Ken Blake and Shell. He's on top of this hill, and he's got a tire review for you coming at you live. 1:02:52 [laughs] Um, dude, that'd be great. All right. Uh, so anyways, hey, thanks. We, we appreciate, truly appreciate people, um, 1:03:00 uh, listening to us, supporting us, uh, making comments on Instagram, uh, getting a hold of Gomez, saying, "Hey, Gomez, when are those guys gonna talk about their tech stuff again? I, I really miss it. 1:03:10 I need another podcast." [laughs] Um, but that's kinda, um, that's one of the reasons why we do it. The other reason is because we just like to listen to ourselves and talk about bike shit. 1:03:20 Um- Yeah, I think it's just an excuse to talk about bike stuff. Exactly. So, um, hopefully you know how, how to get a hold of us. I would like to do, eventually, and this might be... 1:03:27 I, I'm gonna advertise this for a couple times. I would do, I would like to do a completely, um, email question podcast- I think we can do it... 1:03:35 where all we do, all we do for the podcast is just, um, uh, listeners send in their emails to us. We, uh, talk about them. 1:03:43 We, we respond to them, um, through email, but then we also respond to them on, on, uh, what the fuck we're- On the podcast. On the podcast, yeah, exactly. Yeah. So, um, let's try to shoot for that in the fall. 1:03:55 Maybe send us an email. We'll just start, we'll just start organizing our emails, and, um, we'll try to do that, and that way we'll make you famous, too. There you go. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. 1:04:05 [upbeat music] Hey, thanks for listening. Take care. Cheers. Thank you for listening. The music we are using on today's show is from the Free Music Archive. 1:04:22 It is the song Easy Riding performed by Animals and Men. You can find all our shows at fat-bike.com, including the notes for today's show. 1:04:31 [upbeat music]
