Transcript 0:00 [upbeat music] Welcome to Fat Camp show number 29 for some time around the beginning of December 2017. 0:16 Fatbike.com presents Fat Camp, a more or less monthly podcast covering different technical aspects of fat and plus bikes. Look for all our shows at fat-bike.com/radio, or subscribe to our feed on iTunes. 0:32 [upbeat music] Welcome, campers. Welcome to Fat Camp number 29. How you doing tonight? Oh, I'm doing damn well. How about you, Andy? 0:50 [laughs] I'm doing fine. I think this podcast is already started before you guys has even started listening, but, uh- We got a little Chatty Cathy over here- [laughs]... with Andy. 0:59 Uh, yeah, he's l- he's lubed up and ready to talk bikes. Well, I had to pick the kids up from dance and made a stop on the way, so you know how that works. Uh, no, welcome to Fat Camp 29. Uh, 29. Let's see. 1:14 How long we been doing this? Wow, we only do them, like, once a month. We- a little more than that, but- Is it over two years? So yeah, so yeah, yeah, we, we got, I think we got a solid two years. Excellent. Yeah. 1:23 Excellent. Cool. We, we need to look at our anniversary date. That w- yeah, I have no idea. Cheers to that. 1:28 Although, I know somebody that, uh, just l- act- actually listened to show number one, and I apologized to them and- [laughs]... you know, was like, "I'm sorry that you had to go through that." But, uh, 1:39 we have got an outline for you tonight that is gonna ebb and flow through- A lot of topics... all kinds of stuff. Yeah, we don't have any kind of centralized topic tonight. No. Um- But a lot of good shit. 1:50 Uh, I think- Oops, sorry... we're gonna talk about flat- Didn't mean that check... fat bikes and plus bikes. I think we are. And the tactical aspects. I, I, I, I think I almost said flat bikes. 1:59 [laughs] 'Cause I c- I c- I crossed the f- the flat, the flat, the fat and the plus. Um, I need to give a shout-out to, uh, one of our Instagram followers. Um, I think he's over in the middle of the state of Michigan. 2:12 I think he's in Gaylord, or maybe it's Grayling. I can never remember which is which. I think Gaylord's on top- [laughs]... because the lord is always above Grayling. Grayling is the name of a fish. 2:23 But, uh, anyways, uh, one of our, one of our bros [can opening] over in Gaylord... Nice. What do you, what do you got there, Kev? I have a Weizen the Juice. Weizen the Juice. A juicy IPA- Who's making that?... for nugs. 2:38 Who's- Chilling and grindage, bud A. [laughs] Um, this is the Grand Armor Brewery. And that's from Grand Haven. Yes. Oh, roots. My hometown. Yeah. Excellent. Sorry. 2:51 One of our bros over in Gaylord, uh, who chats with us once in a while on the, uh, Strava or on the Instagram, is asking to us, asking us about, "Hey, 3:01 uh, my wife is gonna kill me if I buy a pair of these 45NRTH winter riding shoes or these lake shoes. What's my alternative?" And my response to him was, uh, "Don't tell her. Just buy them." 3:17 Yeah, I, I, I, I don't, there is not an altern- the alternative is you can't ride when it's cold, or- Well-... it sucks... the alternative is to go flat pedals and buy a nice pair- Yeah, yeah... 3:28 of Sorels, you know, the human snow tire. Yeah. Um, and that's what, that's what he's done. Uh, he's like, I, you know, he can't... And, and let's face it, those shoes and boots, they're expensive. Oh, yeah. Yeah. 3:40 But, I mean, you get a long time out of them. They last. Oh, I bet they're gonna last. They're well-made. You're only gonna use them for three, four, five months out of the year. You know? Maybe a little more, but yeah. 3:49 Well, depending upon where you are. It's all regional- Yeah... according to the last podcast. Yes. Um, right, but I'm not gonna use my Wolfhammers, you know, until it gets really cold. Mm-hmm. 4:00 It's only gonna be really cold in Michigan for four months, you know? And if I... That's a long... I'm gonna use those shoes for a long time. 4:10 So, that's what I think you've gotta do with your wife, is you've gotta convince her that- [laughs]... hey, th- this 300, 4:19 350, $400 pair of cycling shoes that I'm gonna use twice a week, three times a week, maybe once a month, is gonna last me for years. It's an investment. Oh my gosh. Yes. It's gonna last me for 5, 10... 4:34 I mean, it's just like saying, "Hey, this is my last bike." [laughs] You know? And, and the thing is, the difference about boots is that y- it is not an N plus one situation- No... for most people. Right. 4:45 I mean, it's like, you get a good pair of winter boots, and it's like- It's awesome... you're just like, "Oh my God, this is the most best thing ever." Yeah. And that's all you wanna wear- Right... 4:52 for months, and months, and months- Yeah... while it's cold. Um, but our friend over in Grayling's c- can't do that, so I think he's, he wants to, uh, just go Sorels and flat pedals. 5:02 He had a question about a vapor barrier, though. And vapor barrier is mostly for a wet condition, right? No. No? No. It's, i- it depends. I mean, like, um- Why do you wanna put your foot that's gonna sweat into a condom? 5:19 Because then your sweat doesn't, like, wet out your insulation, and essentially make it so that you will conduct more cold into your, your foot. 5:28 So, it, it's, it's a way to a- l- you know, preserve your insulation, essentially. Doesn't the wetness on your foot decline the insulation? N- not if you have a vapor barrier. Oh, okay. I see. 5:39 Yeah, 'cause the moisture doesn't get to the insulation. The insulation. Gotcha. Okay. I need to respond to him on that one, then. Yeah. So- 'Cause I thought it was mostly, like, a wet... 5:49 Your vapor barrier is preventing from wetness from getting in. No. Well, I mean, that's, that's what, like, a waterproof boot or whatever does. Okay. But, like, the vapor barrier's are a different thing. 5:58 The vapor barrier saves your sweat from wetting out your insulation. Gotcha.'Cause once your insulation gets wet, then you're screwed. Basically, yeah. Okay. Yeah. Gotcha. Yep. I gotcha. All right. Well, bottom line, 6:13 s- save the coin. Yeah. Sneak it from your fucking wife- [laughs]... and, and buy the boots. Get the good stuff. Yeah. A lot of guys like flats, though, in the winter. 6:23 Yeah, I mean, I- I totally understand that, you know... I, you know, I, I, hats off to them. Right. I don't like riding flats. Um, that's just me, but if you like riding flats, that's a totally awesome way to go. 6:33 I think there's a misconception that if you're riding clipless, that it gets clogged up with snow. I agree, and I haven't had issues with that. Event- I mean, within a couple pedal strokes, you can bang it out. Yeah. 6:45 Or you can s- you can s- spray Pam on it. It, the, most of the time, I mean, m- like, the Crankbrothers pedals, I had very little issue with them clogging. 6:54 You know, the SPD's that I ride, you might end up getting a little bit of clogging, but like you said, you know, it's not hard to knock the snow out of your boot and then- Mm... be good. 7:03 You're not going fast enough where you're like, "Oh, gosh, I gotta clip in sooner than later." Yeah. It's not bad. Yeah. 7:10 And, and if you're lucky, it might drop you back a little bit from the pack, and then you can ride how you want. [laughs] You don't have to suffer with the fast guys. 7:16 [laughs] I will say, though, the, whatever the, like, the ICE or whatever pedals, the I-S-S-I. I-S-S-I? The QBP pedals? Yeah. Yeah. I mean... You're not a fan. No, I'm not a fan. I hate those pedals. 7:30 They come in different flavors and colors, though. Yeah, yeah, but I mean, 7:34 I don't think I've had any of those pedals last more than a month, and a good chunk of the time, you know, it's like I was having issues with them clogging up with ice, so I'd go to tap out, you know, the ice out of my shoe, and I would crack off part of the pedal. 7:48 I wanna stop this conversation because you have actually had pedal troubles, and you've, you've had to kind of put your head down and, and s- and say, "I'm going to buy Shimano pedals." 8:00 Yeah, well, 'cause I don't, I'm not a huge fan of Shimano, not 'cause I don't think they make good product. It's just I really don't like their marketing practices or whatever you wanna call it, their sales practices. 8:14 Right. 8:14 You know, 'cause essentially what they do is they, they dump a ton of, like, OEM products out into mail order world, and then, like, places like Chain Reaction and stuff like that sell Shimano stuff for, like, dirt flippin' cheap, which is cheaper than your bike shop can get it wholesale in a lot of cases. 8:38 Right. So it just screws the local bike shop. Right. Yeah. So what, what pedal are you gonna run this winter? Oh, I'm gonna run XTRs. Yeah. That's, that's the only thing I'll run. Right. 8:46 Because, you know, I, I mean, I ran into all sorts of durability issues with Crankbrothers. They, they held up a hell of, hell of a lot better than the- Yeah... the ICE or whatever pedals. 8:56 But, but did you rebuild them, though? Oh, I rebuilt them a ton of times. Right. But I'd still just destroy them eventually. Yeah. Um- How many times do you think you're gonna rebuild these XTRs? I don't think I am. 9:06 No, exactly. I just don't have to. I don't think I've ever... And that was the question that you asked me. You're like, "Hey," yeah, I think, I've got... I can pull it up on text. I have evidence. 9:14 [laughs] Uh, "Have you ever..." I don't think it was, "Have you ever," but how many times or r- it was, the question was pertaining to rebuilding my XD pedals, and I was like, "Never." Yeah, you don't have to do it. 9:24 Never. Now and then, you might want, might wanna check for play, and you might wanna tighten them up. Yeah. But you really don't ever have to rebuild them. 9:30 They're just- And then that's when you're like, "Okay, I'm going to buy these pedals." Yeah, and I love them. Yeah. I mean, they're just, they're amazing pedals. Yeah. 9:37 So, you know, yeah, I mean, I pretty much ride the XTRs, but I mean, the XTs are great, and th- both of them are really reasonably priced. I mean, unfortunately, this gets back to the pricing thing. 9:46 You can get them really cheap online. There you go. Yeah, yeah. Um, so I mean, it's a, they're, they're a, they're a really good pedal. 9:53 So regardless if you're riding boots and flats or you're riding 45 North or Lakes in clip-ins, uh, you wanna keep your feet warm during the wintertime. Hell yeah. Yeah. Yeah, that makes life so much better. Gotcha. 10:07 Um- Boots are a game changer. There you go. How's that for, for, how's, uh, how's that for a Gaylord discussion right there? Um, next thing before we get to the next thing. 10:17 Yes, enlighten us about what you have found through- Do... trial and error. Okay, so 29 plus, uh, Salsa Deadwood comes with an aluminum bar. 10:25 I take the stock grips, lock-on grips from Salsa, nothing wrong with them, but I st- I ta- I just take them off 'cause I want to look a little sexier. I need all the help I can get. Little bling. 10:35 So yep, I order some ESI grips. I'm gonna throw those on. I know they work well. Those are, like, the, um- The silicone. Yeah, they're, they're silicone. It's kind of like a foam grip-ish. 10:44 Right, and they come in the perfect color for your bike, and people think you're cool. Yep. Um, they're cheap. No, well, they're relatively cheap. They are cheap. Yep. Uh, they're super, super light. 10:55 I wouldn't describe them as super light, but I mean, like, if you, if you're gonna end up using, like, cork ribbon and you're gonna wrap your bars, that's still a heck of a lot lighter. Um, 11:05 but they're on the lighter end. Right. You know, they're, you can get them in multiple diameters. Yep. You can get them in a, like, a regular. You can get them in a large. You can get them in an, like, an extra large. 11:14 I think they call it, like, chunky or something like that. Yeah, there's, and there's extra chunky. I mean, you can get- Yeah... different widths and blah, blah, blah. Ergonomic, yeah. Yeah. 11:20 And it's like, you know, they kind of, like, they wear in, and they kind of contour to your hands. Yep. So they- They're nice... tend to be really comfortable. I mean, I'm, I'm a big fan of them. 11:28 So I order these up to put on my new 29 plus Salsa Deadwood, uh, full suspension, and, uh, I put them on my aluminum bars. Uh, they go on real slick with some, uh, rubbing alcohol. 11:40 And, um, there's a little slip on the end of them, not enough to, like, make you go crazy on a ride, but just, like, on a ride sometimes when you twist your hand a little bit, you'll be like, "Oh, that grip just slipped a little bit." 11:53 We head down to Brown County, um, have an amazing time down there. They're still slipping, but it didn't get in the way of anything, but I was like, "Ah, these things are still slipping." 12:02 So Ken's like, "Oh, you need to take them off. You need to clean them off, rubbing alcohol, dry them out, rub the inside, you know, give the grip, uh, a-"I don't wanna use that word. 12:13 Um- [laughs] Uh, clean the grip out- Yeah, it's too emotion I'm not comfortable with right now... clean the grip out inside really well, clean the handlebar off. 12:20 There's probably some, you know, xenobiotic foreign thing on there, blah, blah, blah. So I was like, "All right." So I take it home from Brown County, take the grip o- slides off real easily. 12:30 [laughs] Um, clean the grip, clean the handlebar, put it back on. Same thing, grip, you know? I was like, "Okay, well, I'll wait till the morning." I give it some time, still slip. 12:41 Um, somehow across my radar comes a video of a guy who's like, "Hey, your ESI grips are slipping. You can u- you can use packaging tape on your bar 'cause it makes it more smooth." So did he explicitly say smooth? Yeah. 12:59 Okay. Yeah. Yep. Um, so I was like, "Wait a minute. I've got a carbon bar that's smooth in the garage. I'm... And I wanna put a carbon b- the handlebars on the stock- The Deadwood... Deadwood are pretty wide. 13:12 I've always wanted to go narrow because I go a little bit narrow on my, on my hardtail and my fat bike. So I, I slap on the carbon bars, slap on the ESI grips, [squeaks] stick like freaking mud. Hmm. 13:25 Like, no problem whatsoever. So my, based on my experience, ESI grips will work on carbon bars, but they don't work on aluminum bars. So okay, a couple questions. 13:39 W- the aluminum bar, did it have kinda like a bead blasted texture to it? Yes. Okay. Um, so I've got a theory. Oh. 13:48 So I'm wondering if the ESI grips almost- Is this a theory that's been tested, or is this a theory- No, it's not... that got an idea? No. This is just a theory. Oh. So, um, things I've... 13:58 So f- first thing is that it almost makes me wonder 'cause the, the ESI grips are almost, like, porous. It almost makes me wonder if it's, like, a suction cup type of thing, like, scenario- Okay... 14:08 where it sticks to a smooth surface better. The other thing- Oh. [laughs] Like that? [laughs] Yeah. Thank you. Something like that. Yeah. 14:17 Um, so the other thing I wonder about is, um, I've noticed my ESI grips over time, um, it doesn't necessarily seem like it's, uh, dirt infiltration between the grip and the, the bar. Yeah. 14:29 But, like, they almost wear out, and they almost, like, peel. Like, you know, you look at these, the- these, these little balls of- Yeah... silicone or whatever- Right... you know, like, that kinda come off the grip. 14:39 Yeah. And it almost acts like ball bearings, and it loosens it up. This would not be the case, though. 14:43 Well, it makes me wonder if you've got the textured surface if it almost is like sandpaper on those grips, and it's, like, kind of accelerates the little, you know, ball bearing effect. 14:53 I didn't notice that it g- got progressively worse over time. Okay, it just s- like, out of the gate it was, like, basically just loose. I r- w- yeah, right away, and it was... Here's the thing, though. 15:04 This is, this is what's... Sorry, Chad. This is what's fucking weird, is that- [laughs]... it was only the inside of the grip. The outside- Ooh... of the grip stuck. 15:12 So it was, and it was the op- it was the same on the other side- Huh... that only a portion of the, of the grip would slip. Weird. Yeah. I don't know. Yeah. So I- I stick by my suction theory. It's all about suction. 15:29 [laughs] Right. I, I, yeah, and lubing your zippers. [laughs] We'll get to that. Right. And that's not a euphemism. Right. I really liked that when I saw that today. [laughs] I was like, "Nice." 15:39 Um, so yeah, that's just the word. I didn't... I don't know. You know? It- email us at fatcamppodcasters- Plural... uh,.uh, @gmail.com. Yep. 15:51 Uh, and let us know if you have the same issue with your ESI grips and your aluminum bar/carbon bar if you've ever experienced that. 15:58 But good news is my grips are sticking, and I have a shorter, uh, handlebar- Narrower... length. Yeah. Narrower handlebar length on my 29 plus full suspension Salsa Deadwood. Ah. Amen. 16:12 So you're not gonna die when you ride- No, I'm not... North Country, and it's, like, a bunch of tight trees. Exactly. I'm a huge fan. Um, we're gonna take a break. 16:19 We'll be right back, and we're gonna talk about no love for fat bikes. 16:24 [upbeat music] Wow, Andy just blew my mind in that, and- Sorry. 16:42 Sorry about that... we're not gonna, like, uh- We do not-... discuss what... Yeah. No, we are not- Well, don't wanna go there... gonna go down another rabbit hole. But we are gonna talk about love of a different sort. 16:49 Uh, yeah, I see that you, um, have... Is it a complaint? I, it, more of an observation. Observation, okay. 16:56 Yeah, it just, it, it was interesting because, um, we, we've had a few emails where people have been asking about, like, new bikes and stuff. Right. 17:04 So I've been on a bunch of, uh, different manufacturers' websites, and I'm looking around, and I, you know, 17:14 I, I, I th- I don't think it's an understatement to say there's been some revolutionary stuff that's gone on in drivetrains in the last couple years. And, you know- For example, uh, 12 speed? 17:24 Well, I mean, there, there obviously was the big evolution of one, 1X. Right. You know? Okay. 17:29 But what's happened is it's like, you know, that was a big revolution, but then it's like, you know, SRAM doubled down, and now they got the 12X, the Eagle. Right. I mean, Eagle's amazing. Yeah. 17:37 Um, I ended up riding XO Eagle over the summer and was, you know, blown away by it. I mean- Okay... it's not, it's not that the 1x11 SRAM stuff was bad. It's just the Eagle's got a huge, huge, huge range. Right. 17:52 And I feel like with fat biking, you need that range. Sure. You know, every year, like, what I do is I downsize my chainring a ton because, you know, I'm, I'm, I'm basically gonna plan on going slow in the snow. Right. 18:04 But there's times when you end up getting the gr- like, you know, super good groom conditions or whatever, where it's flying. 18:10 It's faster than it is during the summerSo in theory, with a fat bike, you actually kind of need a, almost a bigger range, you know, to really be able to have the perfect gearing for all scenarios. Gotcha. 18:21 You know, it's like if you wanted to have one bike that you could race, and then you could also end up going the other extreme where you're out there, you know, bushwhacking, you know, boondocking or whatever- Right... 18:29 you know, you need a big range, and that's where the Eagle comes in. Um, there's been a lot of times [laughs] during the winter that I wish I had that 50 tooth. Right. So 18:40 I just thought it was a gimme that most fat bikes would end up having, like, GX Eagle because that's now available. Okay. You know? It's like you, you can get- Yeah... that after market. Common folk Eagle. Yeah. 18:50 I thought if, if you're gonna buy a fat bike this winter, if there was one thing I was gonna do, I would make sure there was GX Eagle on that fat bike. All right. It's not out there. No one's putting it out there? 19:01 I, I couldn't really find it. Really? I mean, it's like I, I went through most of the major brands, like Specialized. There is no Eagle. Um, and- Right... 19:09 I, I guess, you know, when I talk about revolutionary drivetrains, I'm not just talking about SRAM. Look what's going on in the Shimano world. Right. 19:15 You know, you've, you've got Di2, and you've got a lot of good high-end Shimano options, too. Um- 11-speed. What, you know, like the 46? Yeah, 11-speed. You got, you know, you got the 11-46 cassette- Right... 19:26 which I think, you know, I don't really like that much 'cause it's got a big jump. But you got, um, what is it, 11-40? Is that the other one? 42 and 40. Okay, yeah. 19:35 So I mean, you got some, you got some good wider range options, which I think would be kind of a gimme for fat bikes if you like... If you're a Shimano lover. Um, but it's like Specialized has no model with Eagle at all. 19:46 Wow. It's like all of their drivetrains seemed like they were, like, old. They don't have any XT or XTR Shimano drivetrains. Are they 11-speed or 10-speed? Uh, 11-speed. Okay. All right. 19:58 Yeah, uh, for, for their upper end models. Right. You know, you look at Surly, which, you know, is kind of a, you know, an everyday man brand or whatever. Sure. They generally don't have, like- Right... 20:05 you know, totally chi-chi group sets. Right. But they don't have GX Eagle- Okay... which I would think they'd be all about. Right. 20:11 They don't have any kind of Eagle at all, and they don't have any high-end Shimano either. Um, and I guess the oth- I don- I don't know if I said it or I just thought about it- Are they putting middle of the road SRAM? 20:20 Pretty much, yeah. Okay. Or the, you know, I think, I think in the case of Surly, they do, like, a microSHIFT and the combo- Ugh... and stuff like that to kind of keep the price down. 20:26 Dude, people who buy Surlys don't want good shit, though. Well, y- I mean, yeah. I mean- You know what I mean. I, y- you don't want... Putting XTR on a Surly is a little bit of a contradiction. Right, right. 20:38 [laughs] You know? And I, I'm not saying that that's wrong. I mean, I would ride XTR on a Surly 'cause a Surly's a really good riding bike. Right. And XTR is a really good performing group that's gonna last. Yeah. 20:48 But you wouldn't be putting it on there because, you know, XTR is the lightest or- Right... whatever, you know what I'm saying? Right. 20:53 It's like, and then putting it on a Surly 'cause, I mean, the Surlys, they're not about the light. They're about durability. Sure. They're about a good riding bike in general. Yep. But weight, that's not a concern. Yeah. 21:04 Um, but I guess, and I don't know if I said this, but I mean, like, you look at the Di2 stuff from Shimano. Yeah. I mean, XT Di2, I, I'm a... I wouldn't put electronics on my bike 21:17 for winter riding just 'cause, you know, cold and batteries and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, and complication and other stuff that'll break down. Yeah. But I wouldn't fault anybody for doing it. 21:26 I mean, Di2 shifts awesome. So, you know, putting on Di2 on a fat bike, uh, where you're wearing, like, these big fat gloves and stuff like that, where, you know, all you [laughs] all you... 21:40 You don't wanna have a lot of precision with how you hit the button. You just wanna be able to hit the button and for it to work. 21:44 I can see a case where, you know, an electronic drivetrain would work really damn well on a fat bike. Are they putting Di2 on s- uh, are they coming stock on other bikes? Um, Di2 comes stock on a lot of, you know- Oh... 21:57 stock mountain bikes. Okay. And I guess, and, you know, what I'm doing is I'm kinda coming from, I'm shifting gears. 22:01 I've been looking at a lot of the new bikes 'cause, I mean, most manufacturers don't have model years anymore. Um, most of them have shifted over to, you know, basically just, like, a, a release cycle. Okay. 22:13 So there'll be stuff they'll release throughout the year. Okay. And any kind of new bike you end up seeing in, in any kind of, you know, 2018 model or whatever, they're talking about GX Eagle. 22:25 You know, a lot of times they'll drop in an XT Di2 group. Okay. You know, you'll, you'll have that 'cause those are two kinda, like, really big markets that, you know... 22:33 I mean, that's, that, that is the latest and greatest in drivetrain technology right now- Huh... um, from, you know, the two heavy hitter drivetrain companies. But, and, you know, I guess that's kinda what my point is. 22:43 I don't see that in the fat bike world. You know, the fat bike world is not feeling the love of these high-tech drivetrains, which you would think would be really, really, really applicable. 22:55 So, you know, just kinda running through the brands, you know, we w- we was talking about Specialized, Surly, Trek- Fat Ca- Fat Camp 28, brought to you by the shaft. [laughs] 29. 29. 23:03 [laughs] Brought to you by the shaft, yeah. Yeah. So- 'Cause we're in the shaft all the time. So Trek, they're, they were one of the more progressive companies about really kinda leveraging Eagle across the board. 23:13 Um, but they don't have any Di2. Um, Kona, no Eagle, no good Shimano. Wow. Salsa, they have Eagle, but they've got no high-end Shimano. Norco, they have Eagle, but no high-end Shimano, and definitely... 23:25 Or excuse me, they have, Norco has h- Eagle and high-end Shimano, but they don't have Di2, which, you know, like I said, I can see where somebody would be paranoid about putting a battery in a fat bike- Right... 23:34 in cold times. Yep. Uh, Framed, they only have high-end Eagle. They don't have, you know, the GX Eagle. 23:39 So, you know, there's, you know, most of these brands, they don't have GX Eagle anywhere in their lineup, and I feel like that is, you know, that's, it's, it's fairly cheap, and it's a really, really, really good option. 23:52 Do you think that fat bike companies or, or companies that are selling fat bikes are doing that so that they can cater to the, so that they can cater to the right people that they want to buy their bike? No. 24:05 I think it's just the opposite. Um, if you look at companies, Trek being the exception- No. [laughs] You're wrong. [laughs] You are full of crap. Right. Um, no, um, if you look at companies like Trek-Um, or excuse me. 24:20 If you look at the companies that have like a wide spectrum of bikes, you know, they, they specialize in road bikes, cyclocross bikes- Oh, yeah... gravel bikes, you know, uh, plus bikes. Yeah. 24:28 And then they also have, you know, their token fat bike or whatever. Sure. You know, and I would say, you know, like a specialized... A Trek doesn't fall in that category. 24:35 Trek actually is putting a lot of resources into fat bikes. Specialized put resources into fat bikes when fat bikes were, like, cool or whatever- Right... you wanna call it, like when they first came out. Right. 24:44 And they haven't shown a lot of love since then. Salsa- Whereas Trek has been like just like dumping development dollars into it. So- Is Salsa doing the same thing? Yeah. Yep. Yep. They're putting a lot of- Yeah... 24:54 funds towards their bikes. They, a lot of love towards it. 24:55 And if you look at, you know, those companies that are putting a lot of love towards their bike designs, you know, and trying to like really evolve the fat bike category, those are the ones that have these modern drivetrains available. 25:06 But if you look at like a Specialized and they're like, pshh, you know, [laughs] we, we saw all these other bikes and there's this one little niche over here that I don't know if it doesn't sell enough bikes or what the heck's going on. 25:17 But Specialized shows no love to the fat bike this year. Okay. And there's a lot of other kind of bigger companies like that that are kind of doing the same thing. Um, they're just not prioritizing it. 25:28 So it's kind of interesting. We're starting to see a divide a little bit in the, the industry of, okay, these are really fat bike friendly companies, and these are ones that are not. Why are they not showing the love? 25:38 I just don't think they're selling the numbers. I think they, they look at, you know, where they're making their money- They, they... and they're like, "Nope, we don't... It's not worth it to devote the resources." 25:48 So has the sales of fat bikes gone down then for these companies then? I mean- I can't speculate on anything like that. No. 25:54 I'm just saying as far as like, you know, when you look at, look at their portfolio, if you would, to use a word- [laughs] Oh, yeah... 26:00 um, of, you know, things they sell, they, the fat bike probably isn't making great money for them compared to other categories. Huh. 26:07 You know, so I think that, that's a little bit of a commentary on the industry and w- what, you know, guesstimation on my behalf, but it's just, it, there's, there's a pretty stark contrast. 26:14 I mean, I feel like there's some really, really, really cool drivetrain developments that are available right now that you're gonna go to the store and they aren't necessarily [laughs] gonna be there for your fat bike. 26:26 So- That's a good point, yeah... you know, as a consumer, I would be really cognizant of that, and I would... 26:33 I mean, that, that's a huge check in the right column for like a Trek or a Salsa or somebody else like that that has, you know, these really economical and, you know, kickass modern drivetrains. 26:45 I mean, 12-speed, you know, SRAM, I think that's kind of the future. I think, you know, a couple years we're all gonna be riding 12-speed one by drivetrains because they're- Oh, my wife's gonna kill me. Jesus Pete. 26:54 No, but I mean, it's like it's not that far off of what you're riding right now. No, I know. But- I know... 26:57 you know, it's like, I mean, I'm really impressed with Eagle, and I think, you know, it's, it's a very scalable technology. I think, I'm sure Shimano's gonna come out and do the same sort of thing soon. Okay. 27:06 You know, so it's like, it's just g- it's gonna become ubiquitous in, in a couple years. Okay. And it's basically... I mean, that's what SRAM did. 27:11 They started off at the really high end with their, you know, I don't know, it was XX1 Eagle or whatever- Right... the heck they called it. Right. You know, their top end group. 27:19 And then a year later, bam, you know, they come out with GX. Sure. Which, you know, is, you know, it's kind of like pointed at the SLX- Yeah... XT range- Right... of Shimano stuff. My stuff. Yeah. 27:31 I mean, it's like, it's really economical. Yeah. So, you know, the, I think that's super important. If I was gonna get a mid-range mountain bike or whatever, I would minimally wanna have, you know, Eagle GX on there. 27:45 [laughs] Okay. But if... I, I think that's true, but I also think that some people don't know their butt from a hole in the ground and are unaware that this is an option. 27:56 And, and that's the reason why I mention it, because I think it's, it's, it's a bummer that some of these big manufacturers are not making the coolest shit available that they could on their fat bikes. All right. 28:07 Point made. Gotcha. You know, and it's, I- Yeah... 28:09 I mean, it's, it's a hats off to a, you know, the Treks and the Salsas and a lot of companies like that that are doing that, and it's kind of like, you know, buyer beware if you're out there buying a, a new fat bike. 28:21 Hey, you know, Specialized had a pretty kickass design when they first came out with the Fatboy. Oh, yeah. 28:26 You know, and like the carbon, you know, like, they were like totally up on it, but they haven't continued to develop that line. 28:32 And I look at companies like Trek, I look at companies like s- you know, Salsa, and they're still developing new and innovating, kind of pushing the envelope in the fat bike world, and that's to be commended. 28:43 And not only is it to be commended, but it's t- [laughs] you know, it's, you know, people that buy those bikes are gonna be rewarded because not only are they getting the cooler designs when it comes to things like the 27 and a half by four inch. 28:53 If, if you wanna go fast, race or whatever, you know, Trek started it, Salsa's jumped on it now, you know- Oh, huge... updated their line. 29:01 You know, and, and there's, you know, companies like Rocky Mountain are getting into it. Yeah. I mean, it, it's a, that's a significant technology. We're starting to see the envelope get pushed in that respect. 29:09 And those companies also are making the modern drivetrains, the coolest parts you can hang off of that frame, you know, they're making it available, whereas the Specialized, they're neglecting the frame technology, they're [laughs] neg- neglecting, you know, the component technology. 29:25 Gotcha. I wouldn't wanna buy a Specialized, I guess is my point. Oh, [laughs] from the mothership S. Yep. [laughs] Gotcha. It... 29:32 But maybe, maybe they're gonna come out with something big next year, but it just, I'm just saying there, there's a lot of diversity in the industry that way. [whistles] All right. That was a good topic. Don't sue me. 29:42 No. Not at all. I'm sure no one will. [laughs] I'm not worried about you suing me. I'm more worried about Specialized suing me. No, no one will. Yeah. [laughs] It, it, it... 29:48 'Cause I'll, uh, I'll flag the email and just delete it, um. Yeah. [laughs] Uh, you wanted to talk about Gnarwhals? Oh, I just wanted to say, I think- Just make a mention of them... I think in the past one... 29:59 Uh, we were talking about 27 and a half, and I was kind of disparaging of the higher volume options. Yeah. And like a real backcountry snow tire and the Gnarwhal, the, the Gnarwhal does that. So I, I wanted- Yeah... 30:12 I, I wanted to end up calling out the Gnarwhals being like, if you look at the 4.5 inch by 27 and a half GnarwhalThat- that's a lot of tire Okay And it's got some good, like, kinda, like, paddle-like knobs- Yeah... 30:24 and stuff. I think that'll work pretty darn well in deep snow. I saw that spec on some bike recently, um, and it was, and it was like, ooh, that's, like, gnarly. Yeah. 30:35 It- it- it's a, it's a good alternative to, like, a Bud or a Lou based on looks. Okay. I haven't ridden it- Yeah... but it's like, I was like, "Okay, that's a tire I'd have confidence in." 30:43 So I just wanted to say that I kinda was disparaging when I shouldn't have been. Gotcha. I think the, I think the Narwhal looks pretty badass. Well, uh, thank you for your apology. 30:51 [laughs] The Narwhal accepts, accepts all of your, uh, wrongness that you said. Um, let's take a quick break. Wow, this is the second one we're gonna take. We'll come back with just our fi- our grand finale. 31:04 Ooh, man, you think we can fit all that in the grand finale? We got a lot to go. Oh, yeah. [laughs] We might have a couple more breaks. 31:10 [upbeat music] And we are back with a dog on our lap. 31:40 [laughs] Yep, very quiet dog, just a KO'd dog. Yes. Um, wanna make mention of the, uh, Instagram @fatcamppodcasters. Plural. Uh, plural, [laughs] always. And also our email account, which is fatcamppodcasters- Plural... 31:57 @gmail.com. And wanna give a shout-out to, um, everybody who, you know, shoots us a question. You know, Joe and Andrew and Mark and Graham and Aaron and Patrick, uh, and Mark- James... yeah, Mark. 32:12 Mark responds all the time. It's good. 32:14 [laughs] And, um- No, we, we get a lot of good questions via email We get, we get great emails, yeah The thing is- Um- Don't hesitate to email us There- there's a lot of podcasts that will, like, talk about, 32:25 you know, pretty much every email they get. Yeah. And, and I don't, I don't think that's wrong, it's just in a lot of cases, these are pretty f- specific questions. Yeah. 32:32 And if, if we run out of stuff to talk about otherwise- Right... we'll talk about those specific questions. But in general, it's like if, if, if we get an email that's, I feel like it's a little more general- Right... 32:42 we'll talk about that. Right, but the, generally, generally the emails are like, "Hey, guys, 80 mil rims, 100 mil rims on this kinda tire with this kinda bike, what do you think?" Which isn't a discussion. Yeah, no. 32:55 You know? It's just like, uh- "And I wanna run this specific tire- Right... and I live in this area," and it's like- And I live, and I weigh this amount, and blah, blah, blah. Yeah. 33:02 It's, like, it's a very, very, very specific thing. Right. And, you know, um, we're happy to talk about that stuff. And, you know, let us know via email or whatever, but it's, like, a... 33:09 You know, I don't mind responding to those things personally and, like, just, you know, being like, "Hey, here's my two cents and your scenario" Right... but then we might not necessarily talk [laughs] 33:19 about it, you know? Yeah. I think we'd probably- They'll feel defensive if we bring it up- Yeah... you know? We wanted to respond. And here's the other thing, you might be getting more responses from me. Yeah, I hope so. 33:27 Just to lighten the load. [laughs] Which, uh- You have a valuable amount of input in which you do not. [laughs] You wait for me to, like, spout off about some technical shit. Well, there's some things- Sorry, Chad... 33:37 I'm like, "Eh, I don't know about this one. I'm just gonna forward this one on to Ken." And you know what? Most of the guys that email us are like, "Uh, let me know when you forward it to Ken," and, you know. 33:45 [laughs] As in the Instagram people are like, "I know this is Andy." They're like- Yeah. [laughs]... "Okay, there's a difference there. Geez." Hey, uh, I discovered a new hack. 33:57 Well, this, this is an overarching topic- Right... because- Oh, no, it happens all the time... you know, we're talking about this right now because this is what we're going through- Right... prepping for winter. 34:04 All- Everybody's digging through their gear. Well, all of a sudden it's like, you know, you gotta get your cold weather gear out. Right. You gotta end up going with your cold weather setup- Right... 34:12 which w- you, which for me, like, that's a whole different, like- Yeah... kinda like a new wheel set, and then I put a frame bag on there. Oh, yeah. 34:18 And, you know, it's all this new stuff that I haven't touched for months- Right... coming out of the closet and going onto the bike or on me. Yep. And you learned... Well, you've, you've got a really good hack. 34:29 Yeah, it's great. It's awesome. It works great. Um, so I dig, you, you know, you dig through- What... Okay. You- Yeah... zippers. Zippers suck. Yeah. Yeah. Lube your zipper. But- Right... 34:40 this is where the hack comes in If you, if you forget to lube your zipper, like, like ev- like we all do, you pull your stuff out- Well, and what we're talking, I mean, I, I'm assuming most people know this- Oh... 34:49 but what, what happens with most zippers as they sit over the course of the summer is they corrode. Yeah. So you know, you get, like- They turn green. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. 34:58 So- And so you, like, scrape and scrape with your fingernail, and you're like, "That's- Well, you can barely get the thing to move- Yeah... and all sorts of stuff Your fingernail isn't enough- Yeah... 35:05 and so you grab a steak knife or you grab something, and you're scraping, scraping, scraping, scraping. And it's on your coat, it's on your gloves, it's on your boots. 35:13 It's on whatever winter gear has sat in the bin- [laughs]... in the closet or in the basement for a while 'cause you were like, "Thank God I'm not wearing this shit for a while. 35:20 It's like, it's 47 and now I can wear shorts." [laughs] All right, this is what you do. You grab your kid's crayon and- Yes... you just draw up and down on the zipper. 35:33 Just go up and down, stuff it in to the z- [laughs]... the zipper handle, stuff it underneath. And as soon as you can get it going, like, if you can just jerk it up enough... Ah, that's disgusting. 35:45 [laughs] But if you can just pull it up enough, then you can get more crayon in there, and the crayon is amazing. Wow. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Doesn't matter the color. [laughs] Yeah. 35:55 You know, I would, I would recommend your favorite color. [laughs] Just make it more fun. I don't... You know? I mean, if you're- If you work it, man... if you're into indigo- Yeah, work it... that's great. Yeah. 36:05 And if y- if you want mustard yellow, that's great, too. Cobalt blue works fine for me. [laughs] My coat's blue, so I w- it went with the blue Oh, man, that's gonna match your bike, too. Yeah. I should send this to Seth. 36:15 I think- There you go... I think Seth- Seth's Bike Hacks... Seth needs to know this, yeah. Um- But I don't th- I don't think Seth rides... Like, I think he rides, like, North Carolina or something. 36:22 Oh, he's not gonna go cold. He's not gonna appreciate. Yeah. Yeah. None of those guys go cold. He's not gonna run into- Right... the sticky zipper. Yeah. 36:27 I don't, I don't know if there's a YouTube channel that does go cold, but I'd like to find one. That's for sure. There you go. There, start that one up. 36:33 Uh, but yeah, when your zippers get stuck, uh, use some crayonsI like it It started out with candles, and candles worked okay Yeah But then I was like, "Wait a minute, [laughs] there's crayons"- There you go... 36:44 they're right in the backseat of the car. [laughs] There's like 12 of them right there. That's just so awesome. This is- No, I- Yeah... I love the crayon. I, I haven't tried this. Oh. I am so looking forward to it. 36:53 This, it's awesome. I think [laughs] there might be like- Yep... some little kid that- And, and I think- Uh-... if you remember to do it, like, in the spring when you put it away, just- Oh, it's like waxing your skis... 37:01 like, yeah. You gotta protect it a little bit. Yeah. It's awesome. Okay, yeah, you gotta put, gotta put- Yeah... your storage crayons on- Right... your zippers before you- Here's the other thing you gotta do, though. 37:09 You gotta add a little more jizz to your tires. [laughs] Yes, yeah, or swap out your tires or whatever you gotta do. I added some this evening to my other set of wheels there. Yep. 37:20 Now, you've had those hanging up in the rafters and- Oh, it was crazy. Um, but yeah, you've gotta... You're prepping for winter, you gotta buy the new sealant. I, um... Do you always use the same sealant? 37:33 Uh, more or less. Okay. Yeah, I mean, I, I'm a Stan's fan. Um, 37:39 I have had limited experience with Orange Seal, and it wasn't that great, but I've heard really good things about it, so- It worked, it worked okay for me once I got enough in there. 37:47 Yeah, it's just- And I think sometimes Stan's is the same way. Oh, yeah, it, it totally is. Right. I mean, any sealant is gonna be very volume dependent. 37:54 You know, you gotta get the right amount on your tire so it coats it and, you know- Right... stuff like that. And if you get a little bit short, or it dries out too much before it's really sealed up- Right, right... 38:02 'cause it sat someplace or whatever, I mean... I wonder if you can mix them. Uh, I wouldn't r- recommend it. It's like, uh, there's a lot of particular chemicals as far as like... I mean, I think about- Gotcha... 38:11 Stan's and like I wanna- Right... uh, I wanna say there's ammonia in it, but I don't know. But it's just, there's stuff and you wouldn't want them to react- Okay... negatively. Oh. Go with the what... 38:20 The whatever the manufacturer's done is probably pretty fricking dialed. Right. So run with th- a p- one particular thing- Right... and then clean your stuff, and then switch over to another one. 38:29 So if you're putting on new tires... Oh, dude, this is coming out in December. Yeah. Oh, happy holidays. [laughs] It'll be ear- yeah, it'll be early December. Exactly. Um, yeah, add some jizz to your tires. 38:43 I think that's good advice. Have you seen the green stuff? On zippers? No, jeez. [laughs] Heck yeah, I've seen green stuff on zippers. No, no, the, the, the- Unless you're talking about some other kind of green stuff... 38:50 the green sealant stuff. I have not seen anything, officer, as far as the green stuff. [laughs] Yeah, right, right, right. Let me go. No, I saw a green, uh, sealant juice. I think that's Slime. Isn't that green? 39:02 No, it was a, it was a different company. Ah, I shouldn't have mentioned it. I don't know. We can edit this out. Yeah, you're just, like, distracted with the green stuff. 39:07 Um, the other thing I had to do is I had to reload my frame bag, which was awesome. I love doing it. Oh, yeah. It was great. Yeah. Yeah, you- And I don't know why I don't do frame bag year round. 39:18 Is it too heavy, you think? I think it's almost excessive as far as capacity. Like, I think about on my bike, and I'd rather carry two really big bottles on my bike- Yeah... 39:28 and then go with, um, you know, a gas tank or, you know, something like that on the handlebars for food- Right... and stuff like that. And then, like, a, a seat bag, almost like break it up into individual things. 39:40 Why not put it all into a frame bag then for the summer? I guess, uh, like, in the case of my hard tail, my frame bag's too big and shit would jostle around, which I wouldn't like. Okay. So that wouldn't be cool. Um, 39:53 I guess on my full suspension bike, I don't know, I might... I, I could be swayed that way. Okay. Because, you know, that main triangle is so small, I can... 40:02 I, I can't fit a full-size water bottle, like a big water bottle in there. I can only fit a small water bottle in there. And, um, with the frame bag, I can fit a full-size... I, I should say with a water bottle cage. 40:12 Right. Um, with the frame bag, I can fit a, you know, whatever size water bottle cage and then still have some extra room in there. Okay. And I can easily fill that. 40:21 I, I'll still probably need to put tools or food or something, you know, sometimes. I wondered if it was just not cool to have a frame bag during the summer. 40:30 Uh, it's probably not cool, you know, in general, but I really don't give a shit about that. All right. If, if it makes sense, it makes sense. Okay, so you've switched over from the Wheezy Juice to the... The Nord Sky. 40:42 And that's from Black Rocks up in Marquette? Yes. Oh, cheers to Black Rocks- Right... and their support of, you know, fat biking- Fat biking... and cycling in general. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. They're awesome. 40:51 Um, so- I gotta cr- pour a beer, so talk. Oh, yes, I, I, I will, I'll, I'll surly take, surely take over. I will surly take over right now. Um, so I had to reload my frame bag, which is fun. 41:02 I always include in my frame bag a fire starter, which is a bar of magnesium, uh, with a, um, a little sample of flint, uh, glued to the bar of magnesium with a steel, uh, scraper. [laughs] That's awesome. 41:20 You're the, you're definitely a chemistry teacher. Dude, I to- That's all I'm saying... 41:23 I totally don't ever want to have to build a fire, but it, you know, sometimes when we're down in the federal forest, I think we should pause and be like, "Hey, let's build a fire." I th- I think we should. 41:34 It'd be really neat. I 100% agree with that. And, and I could start it for you. Yeah. Well, and my take on that is, like, I've got the little, like, prepackaged, um, fire starter things. Oh, really? 41:45 Yeah, I'll typically have, like, at least two of those in a frame bag. Okay. All right. And that's, that's one of the things I reloaded this week- Gotcha... because I don't bring fire starter during the summer. 41:52 Excellent. Um, also, I've been reloading, uh, zip ties. Zip ties? Where do you keep zip ties? I... in my frame bag. Really? Yeah. You bring them along on every ride? Yeah, they're always on every ride. Wow. Yeah. 42:05 I'm thinking about- When did you... When was the last time you needed a zip tie on a, a ride? Never. That's why I bring them. I don't get that logic. Uh, because you know the time I'm gonna need a zip tie, guess what? 42:17 The, the one time you don't bring them? The one time I don't bring them. I don't think so, because I think you're batting a big fat zero on zip ties. 42:22 But the other thing is, Mike Riley just, uh, got his seat shafted off of his, uh, thing. He could've used zip ties. Because if- That's a good point... if I didn't have zip ties in my... 42:30 I didn't have them in my camel bag, guess where they were? In my frame bag. There you go. I didn't have my frame bag with me. Yep, 'cause you were riding full suspension. Until... And, and they're... 42:37 Dude, they weigh nothing[laughs] I, I brought zip ties on my, uh, bike packing trip this summer, so- In Colorado? Yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think zip ties along with frame or fire starter is- And duct tape. 42:52 Yeah. And I think with duct tape, though, 'cause I don't think you bring the whole roll. I think you wrap- Oh, no, no, no... like, you wrap it- You wrap it around your pump or- You wrap it around something, yeah... 42:59 yeah, or your CO2 or- Right... there, there's a million things you can do. No, I'm not going CO2 'cause there- No, good point... we had bad trouble with that. Good point. You know? Yeah. 43:06 When it gets too cold, that shit gets really cold and it doesn't work. Yeah. Yeah, every time I've needed it when it's been cold, it hasn't worked. Yep. Lezyne pump, that's what it is. But yeah, but a pump, it's amazing. 43:15 Yeah. You can use it, like, multiple times a ride. You just rebuilt one. You rebuilt one. [laughs] I didn't really rebuild it. That was just like- What'd you do to that thing to make it work? So- Okay, so here we go... 43:23 th- we're down in Brown County and we're like, uh... I, I didn't realize it, but one of the guys we rode with was having problems with his pump. And I loaned him a pump during the day or something. 43:33 It's like he, he ended up basically pinch flatting. You know, Brown County, it's got some bumps and lumps and stuff and, you know, he ended up bottoming his tire out. He ended up pinch flatting it. 43:42 He k- like, it was just, like, one of those slow leak things where you try to keep it going. Right. So he used a pump a few times th- Oh, dude... throughout the day. 43:48 It was, he doesn't know any- But I didn't realize how much he used the pump throughout the day. He d- he, he didn't know what he was doing and, oh, Todd, no disrespect, but- [laughs]... you're welcome. The save your ass. 43:58 [laughs] But yeah, he, his pump wouldn't blow anymore 'cause the gasket came off, like, the shaft in the middle of it or something. Yeah, yeah. 44:03 So that night I finally got a clue 'cause I'm g- unfortunately, I'm the dick who's, like, riding really fast and, like, ahead of everybody and waiting for everybody when- Yeah... 44:11 they're working on their bikes a mile down the trail. The guy who gets, he, the guy who gets to rest the most- Yeah... is the guy in front. Yep, exactly. Yeah. 44:18 So, um, so I finally got a clue that night and I'm like, "Oh, shit, your pump's not working?" Uh, you know, and just take it apart. Right. Um, what you do is y- you've... 44:28 Typically, it's, it's a pretty straightforward seal on there. It's either, like, a, kind of a one-way or it's a O-ring. Yeah. And you just clean it off. 44:36 It's like a lot of times it, there's a lot of friction between that seal and sort of the outer shaft of your pump, so it tends to, like, collect dirt and, you know, it's like if it's not sealing up real well, you, you try to clean the seal as best you can, and then you try to clean the inside of the pump as best you can. 44:52 But normally you can't really do a whole lot with that. I just kinda, like, coil up a, a paper towel or a rag- Right... and, like, shove it in there and kinda clean that out. 44:59 And you get an amazing amount of dirt out of there. 45:01 And then you just drip a little bit of lube, um, normally I'll just use, like, chain lube or whatever, on the seal of the sort of the, the shaft or whatever you wanna call it- Right. Right... in the pump. Yeah. 45:12 And then you throw it back together. And you don't wanna use a ton of lube, just a little bit, and it, night and day difference. You just totally rejuvenated. That, that made it work. Yeah. Wow. 45:20 Yeah, and it's, and that's one of those things where a lot of times we're not using our pumps a ton during the summer, but then you come winter- Right... 45:28 and any of these issues, you know, all these gaskets and stuff like that, they get harder and, you know, it exasperates all these problems. So- Right... 45:34 you know, you wanna talk about something to prep for winter, maybe overhaul your pump. Right. And most of them are super simple. 45:40 It's just it, there's a threaded portion at the top of sort of the main sh- you know, like, where the, the main chamber or whatever. Okay. You unthread that, psht, pull- It's just on threads? Yeah. Holy shit. 45:51 Yeah, it's just kind of, it's kinda, like, aluminum, so you don't- All right... pull the pump completely into two parts. All right. So you pull that out and the plunger comes out, and you clean that. Okay. 45:58 You clean inside the shaft a little bit. You lube it up a little bit and- Oh... throw it back together. And, you know, your pump will last a really long time and work really well. 46:06 I think you should do a YouTube video about that. That'd be great. [laughs] How to clean out your shaft, uh, and your pump. [laughs] I'm sure you'd get a lot of hits on that. Ah. You know? Okay. Anyway. 46:17 And so moving on to the last bulleted point. Yeah. Check for lubing parts, because- I need to do that... Andy has got, like, toxic sweat. Yeah. And he has ruined so many different components- Yeah... 46:28 because i- this bolt freezes up or whatever. Yeah. I need to do it on my, uh, handlebar and stem- Yeah... for sure. Yep. Well, we're gonna, we're gonna... 46:37 Uh, the other thing we're gonna do is we're gonna spin headsets around. Well, le- let's keep on the lubing bolts thing because, um- But when I do that I'll be... You should lube a whole bunch of bolts, though. 46:46 Yeah, yeah. You should l- they, that's exactly. And I guess, you know, what happens during the winter is that you, a lot of times, will get salty spray on your bike, and that typically happens lower on the bike. 46:55 But during the summer, if you're riding your fat bike or whatever or, or it's just even been sitting, you know? It's like a lot of times this will happen. 47:02 You know, you sweat on the bike and that kind of then corrodes all the top side of the bike. Right. 47:08 So, you know, most of the bolts on your bike [laughs] are getting this corrosive environment that, you know, you- At some point during the year. Yeah, yeah. Right. 47:15 And it's like if, if you're not really, you know, using your bike during the summer and you might not get it in from the top or w- vice versa or whatever. Right. 47:22 Um, so you probably need to lube some bolts on, bolts on your bike, and you wanna end up che- checking them. You basically, and, and this has to do with torquing them and stuff. You wanna take it completely out, [laughs] 47:33 clean everything up, lube it or Loctite it. You, you wanna use one substance or the other. Go with the manufacturer's recommendation. When in doubt, Loctite it, um, within reason. I mean, I guess, I don't know. 47:47 I, [laughs] I probably do more when in doubt use the grease. Yeah. And then if I, if I really need to, I use Loctite. Um, but, you know, Loctite's, I mean, you wanna use one or the other. Right. Um, 48:01 you know, do all that to your bike. Make sure nothing's gonna seize up. I never lube, and I'm going to before the next three days, my seat clamp bolt. Oh, man. 48:13 That things get, that things, it gets, it gets all kinds of filth and muck and- Normally they'll start to-... butt, butt sweat and shit, you know? 48:20 [laughs] Um, m- most of the time, I mean, mine will start to creak and make noise and stuff like- Oh. But, I mean, that's something that I'll... Yeah, you're totally right. 48:28 You know, whatever kind of bolt in there, um, top and bottom. What about bolts that keep the saddle onto the seat post? You do that, too? I, I would do all of that. Ah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. 48:37 I mean, it's like, I mean, if, if your bike gets any kind of salty spray, your tire's gonna kick that right into that spot.It's such a pain in the ass to dial that, that, the level of that saddle back into place- Mm... 48:48 perfectly. I don't know. I don't think it's that big a deal. Just get a level. Well, you're Ken though- And-... and I'm Andy... yeah, [laughs] So it's, it's, there were different, there you go. 48:56 [laughs] Attention to detail. Right. Um, no, so I mean- Yeah... there's that. I mean, quick releases on your wheels. Tell me about it. Yeah, I mean, it's like it doesn't matter even if you have a thru axle or whatever. 49:06 It's like if you got a lever on there, you wanna make sure that mechanism's working well. Yep. [clears throat] Check out, you know, your hubs and stuff, make sure those are working well. 49:15 Um- Dude, this is the greatest beer in the world. [laughs] Wies- That's the Wiesn juice... Wiesn the juice. Yep. Um- All right... 49:23 you know, d- like derailleur pulleys, you know, you wanna check, you know, your actual derailleur bolt going into the frame. 49:29 Um, it wouldn't hurt to check, you know, like, the chainring bolt area, make sure that's not seized up at all. Oh, mine, mine's self, uh, lube. [laughs] I don't need to check that stuff. 49:40 Yeah, oh my gosh, there's a lot you n- Yeah... yeah. And it's, you know, and it's a day like today when it rains all day. You're like, "You know what? I have nothing to do." [laughs] But go check every bolt on your bike. 49:50 Pretty much. Squeeze some Phil Lubes in there and you're all set to go. Yeah. No, I just, I mean, that, that's an important thing on a... 49:57 You know, if you, if you're keeping your bike long-term and you're comfortable with working on it, do that. Right. 50:01 Or make s- you know, talk to your mechanic and be like, "Hey, run through this thing 'cause I [laughs] rode it all last winter and- Right... 50:08 put it away wet, and it's been sitting all summer, and I wanna make sure it works well." Gotcha. They're, they're gonna find stuff. Yeah. I mean, it's- Yeah... it's kind of a gimme. Yep. So relube. Cool. Um. 50:18 Ch, ch, ch, we're shifting gears again. Yeah. We're gonna pr- uh, I'm sure the next time we talk for the January podcast we'll be talking about prepping for winter again, 'cause it's gonna snow eventually. 50:28 Oh, we got- We gotta get juice for it... man, I, I gotta throw this in here. I got my first, like, snow ride of the year. Oh, really? Yeah, this weekend. I was able to get out Saturday morning. 50:38 We had kind of, um, a 24-hour period of snow- Right... and then it was just, like, kinda cold after that. Right. And like, Washington, kinda cold. I mean, it was... We had 20s. Right. 50:49 You know, like, low 20s, so the ground got a good freeze in it. We got, you know, two to three inches of snow at least- Yep... you know, that stuck around, and, uh, it was so much fun to play in. Nice. 51:00 Uh, got a really good ride up at Arcadia. It was just, you know, it was one of those situations where you got all the leaves underneath and you got the snow on top, so you can slide around a lot. 51:09 But that trail's got some really nice contours. Mm-hmm. So, um, you can just brap through corners if you want, or you can carve through corners if you want. 51:17 You know, you can find a lip in there that you can kinda file low, the, you know, the contours around. And you don't really need the traction in your tires that much. Sure. 51:23 And you know, and there's no vegetation, so you can see all the contours of the trail and just rip around and- Kinda tease you a little bit. Oh, it was amazing. Got you stoked up for- Yeah... got you stoked out for more. 51:32 Oh, God. I can't wait for more snow. Yeah. Bring it. So, um, just thought I'd throw that in there. Anyway, we had an interesting thing. 51:38 Uh, we rode, uh, we were doing some trail work and enjoying a hell of a ride the other day, last week. Um, and I was on- You were on your mou- or your fat bike... 51:49 my fat bike with, uh- Jumbo Jims, four-inch Light Skins... four-four inch Jumbos. Yeah. Four-inch Jumbo Jims Light Skin on 80 mills. Yeah, carbon rim. Carbon rims. You know, a really nice, a sweet setup. Good setup. 52:00 Yeah. Yeah. And what were you riding? I was riding my full suspension bike. Well, it's, it, you know, it had 2.6-inch knobby nic tires on there. It's, like, 120 mills in the front- Front and rear... and 100 in the rear. 52:13 Um, but you know, it's got full lock on, so I mean, it's an efficient... You know, it's a, it's a good cross-country bike. Right. But it's full suspension. Right. And it was, you know, kinda like baby plus at 2.6 inches. 52:24 Right. But a, a pretty aggressive tire. Not, not like a super, it's kinda like a mid-range aggressive tire. Right. 52:29 Um- So we went out and we were kinda screwing around, and we jumped back into some single track, and, and- I would hop over a bunch of stuff... 52:36 and we'd go down this hill, and he'd have a gap on me 'cause we had to climb a little bit, and I'd roll up on him. [laughs] And then we'd, 52:44 you know, crest the next little knoll and go flat and head back down, and I'd roll up on him again. [laughs] And it was like, "I wasn't even working this hard. What the heck's going on?" 52:54 And he would gap me for 20 seconds, and we'd roll down a hill, and I'd roll up on him again. Yep. And I was like, "All right." So finally you call it out. You're like, "I see you're rolling up on me." 53:06 And I was like, "I wondered what was going on." Yeah. Yeah, no, it was like my bike felt slow as snot compared to yours. Yeah. Um, so- That was a super fast setup... 53:14 yeah, so I was like, "Okay, we gotta find, like, some sort of consistent section where we can do a roll-down test." Yeah. 53:21 You know, we gotta, like, basically just, like, get right next to each other, basically going the same speed, and then just go, "Okay, don't... You know, we'll just coast." One, two, three, stop. Yeah. Yeah. Yep. And 53:33 I mean, you were going several miles an hour quicker than me- Oh, totally... at the end. Totally. I, it did, did me- Yeah, you were just like-... [whistles]... you were rolling away from me. Right. 53:40 And you know, that, that was a real trip. Yeah. Um, it was not particularly wet. It wasn't particularly... I mean, it was, it was a wetter day. Yeah, but- But there was not- Right... 53:49 it just- I was still on four point inch tires, and you were on 2.6 inch tires. Yeah. And it, and when we were doing the roll out, roll-down test was a gravel road. Right. 53:57 You know, it should've, I mean, it should've been pretty fast. Right. You know, so it, but it was significantly faster with a four-inch tire than a 2.6. I mean, like, big time, like, noticeable. I had to- Wow... 54:10 I had to really kick my own ass a couple times, more so than I wanted on a chill ride, during that ride just to be able to hang, or just to, like, you know, feel like, you know, the pace was decent. 54:21 I am, I'm, I'm cool, man. [laughs] I'm fast. That makes me feel so special. No, it's... So, and I guess, okay, let's, let's- 'Cause I didn't work hard at all- Yeah... that I remember. 54:32 Let, let's go into, you know, that scenario. You were running a super fast, you know, fat bike setup. I thi- yeah. Oh, yeah. The Jumbo Jims, I love the Jumbo Jims. They're great. 54:42 Um, you know, the, it is such a fast rolling tire, but you got kinda like these spiky knobs that go through leaves. Yeah. So, like, you know, for where we're riding, it's amazing. 54:52 Oh, yeahAnd it's, it's pretty light And it'll... If it, if it doesn't bite through and lets you slide, it eventually has enough knobs on the side that you, it kicks you back. Yeah, yeah. 55:05 It's like you might slide a little bit and then it'll catch. Yeah. You never worry about them. No. 55:10 Um, and y- you look at like the roll down tests and stuff like that, like the actual rolling resistance test- The pressure was-... and they're like, they're amazing. Yeah, yeah. 55:16 So, you know, the I think, you know, as far as your hysteresis thing, like with the casing, that's not really slowing you down, the knobs aren't really slowing you down, but they're like catching just enough. 55:26 I mean, it's just, it's an amazing tire. But we've a- and we've talked about this off the podcast too, about when you have your pressure right, you know it. Oh, yeah. I mean- Yeah... 55:35 you can, you can total- You're like, "Holy crap, this, this pressure..." In whatever size tire you have, you... Like, this is perfect. And when you don't have your pressure right, you, you, 55:46 you don't know that you don't have it right. Oh, no, exactly. You, you might think it- I- ignorance is bliss... it might be something else. 55:53 You're like, "Oh, I wonder why this isn't happening," but when you get it dialed, you're like, "Oh, pressure's right today." Well, it's... And it's one of those things where, you know... 56:01 I mean, how many times have you done the thing where you're like, "Okay, I've got too much pressure in my tire 'cause I'm bouncing around," so I let a little bit out and then I- it feels way better. 56:09 So I let a little more out [laughs] and then it gets a little better still. Yeah, yeah. And then you let a little bit out and you're like, "Damn it- Right. Yeah, yeah... I went too far." Yeah, yeah. 56:15 And it's like all of a sudden it's like it's getting floppy and you're like, you're hearing your rim bong a couple times. Yeah. And, you know, it's like you just, you know, there's a sweet spot in there. 56:24 And there's a lot of times it'll feel pretty darn good, but you just don't know until you start playing around. Ah, rim bong. Yeah, rim bong. What up? Ah, it's- 56:36 You're getting different visions than me [laughs] From there on out I didn't know what, I didn't know what you said. And I was like- [laughs] You get, you get the rim bong, and I was like, "Ah, yeah." 56:43 So all you garage ma- uh, mechanics out there- Right, right... um, yeah. Work on that rim bong. Check your ring, rim bong. Yep. 56:49 Um, one last thing that came up w- while we were prepping to record this thing is, um, um, okay. Why not take a super fat tire- So r- this is an email question. Oh, it was an email question? Yeah, yeah. Oh yeah. 57:07 W- why not run a super fat question... Super fat question. [laughs] Why not run a super fat tire on a- Super fat... skinny rim? 57:15 So what this guy is specifically asking about, he was like, "I'm, I'm gonna run Bud and L- Bud and Lou's," and he was like, "Do I run a 65 mil rim- 42... or an 80 mil rim?" Yeah. 57:25 And, um, just based on the context, I'm kinda reading into his email a little bit, but weight seemed to be one of those things that was a big factor to this dude. Yeah. 57:36 He knew the weights of all these rims, and he listed them, and he, you know, he's like, you know, he kinda went into it saying that he, you know, he had an aluminum wheel set and he wanted to upgrade it, and he wanted to end up saving some weight doing that. 57:46 Um, blah, blah, blah, blah. Okay. And he was like, you know, "What about running a Bud and a Lou on a 65 millimeter rim?" [laughs] And I mean, in general, what I'm gonna tell you right now is don't do it. You... 58:00 There is a time and a place where it could be appropriate, and I'm gonna call out that time and a place. Right. 58:05 Like, a very, very specific case where I kind of like specced that tire and that rim set up on a bike, and it was earlier days of fat biking. There was not a lot of tires. 58:17 You know, you had two really good aggressive tire options. It was the Lou and the Nate. Um, but they're like on w- you know, bookending it. [laughs] It's like there's like wide, wide, wide sort of spectrum here. 58:29 A lot of other tire manufacturers are just starting to jump into fat bike tires, but they were going with like kind of a middle-of-the-road tire. Yeah. 58:36 Surly had been in the game for a while, and they'd kind of done both extremes. Okay. We've got a dog. Fluffing their dog bed right now, so sorry if there's extra noise. [laughs] Um, 58:47 and in that situation, Kate is maybe five foot. I don't know. She's right around there. Let's just call her five foot, yeah. Yeah, it's like 100 pound woman. She's, uh, getting a custom-made bike, 59:02 and we knew it could fit a Bud and a Lou diameter-wise. Right. Um, you know, this is acquiring, um... We kinda worked through all the dimensions. There wasn't gonna be toe overlap or any of these other kinda things. 59:13 Bike was designed to be able to handle a tire that big. So I'm like, okay, she rides in a area, she lives in a area that, um, you can get like super powder conditions. Right. 59:25 You know, like you're not dealing [laughs] with groomed trail at all. Yeah. You're gonna have to break trail. Sure. So if I weighed, you know, like around 100 pounds, or 120 at the max, 59:35 you know, and I had to go with an aggressive tire, I wouldn't wanna go with a f- a Nate, a four-inch tire on any rim scenario, and this tire might get used into the summer too, so what's gonna be the most appropriate rim? 59:49 Or I should say the, the sort of the wheel set would get used into the summer. Right. Not the tire would get used in the summer. 59:54 So I was like, holy crap, you know, Bud and Lou, that's hands down the best winter tire going. Put that on a 65. You know, if she wants to end up running that set-up during the summer, put it on a four-inch. 1:00:06 The 65's gonna be perfect. You know, that was a mint set-up. Okay. You know, the Marge Lite, that was the best rim you could get going for a light person at that time. Right. 1:00:16 But as far as [laughs] in most other people, I don't... Outside of that narrow niche, I really don't think you should ever run a 4.8 inch tire on a 65 millimeter rim. Why not... W- why is that? 1:00:29 Why not do that than run a Nate on a wider one, then? Um, you're gonna effectively get more volume, more footprint, you know, more float- Okay... 1:00:39 I guess is what I'm trying to go for, um, out of that Bud and Lou on a 65 if you keep letting the air out. Okay. 1:00:46 And you get to that situation where you really need to [laughs] have that much footprint, you know, for float reasons, um, the squirm of the tire is not gonna be as big a deal-And, um, if you're a light rider like that. 1:01:00 Gotcha. If you're a heavier rider and you're trying to run, you know, a Bud and a Lou on a 65-millimeter rim at like two PSI, that thing's gonna feel so squirmy. You know, it's a- Right. 1:01:11 You know, think about how much that tire gets flattened out. You've got like an inch on either side. That tire is just gonna be like basically slide side to side. Sure. That thing's gonna feel horrible. Right. You know? 1:01:23 It's, it's gonna be a, such a sucky setup if you're, you know, a- like anything north of 120 pounds. Right. 1:01:31 You know, so if you're like a little kid or a woman or, you know, y- like just like a little person in general, that could be an okay setup, but otherwise it's gonna suck. 1:01:38 And then when you think about the Nate, um, a Nate on a f- you know, 100 mil rim, that's an okay setup, but it's really squared off, um, it's very supported, but, you know, you could put that thing down to like two PSI and it's like, A, the tire's not gonna be very high 'cause it's gotta spread out so wide. 1:01:58 Sure. So you're gonna bottom that rim out super easily. Rim bottom. It might not feel very squirmy or anything. It's like it might be a very stable setup. Sure. Yeah, yeah. 1:02:04 But your footprint's gonna be very small at that, you know- Okay... size s- or that pressure compared to a 4.8-inch tire on a 65. Wow. 1:02:13 So if you're a light rider, you can take advantage of the range that a 4.8-inch tire has on a 65-millimeter rim. Okay. 1:02:20 If you're a heavier rider, you're not gonna be able to take care of, you know, take advantage of that range. It's gonna, it's gonna feel crappy quick as you let pressure out when you take advantage of that big tire. 1:02:31 Gotcha. Um, so, you know, that's kind of the 65 mil rim r- portion. If you go on the other extreme, 100 mil rim- Mm-hmm... a four-inch tire, eh, it's not gonna feel very good at all. 1:02:44 You know, like during summer conditions, it's gonna be kinda compromised, but it, it's gonna feel okay. It's not gonna feel great. Yeah. Just okay. Yeah. 1:02:51 Um, but in like really low pressures, it'll start to flatten out, but it's not gonna be, it's not gonna be a really good winter setup compared to like a, a true 4.8-inch, a big casing tire. Gotcha. Um, 1:03:07 whereas like, you know, the 80 mil, I mean, that's, that, that's kind of the sweet spot. If you're gonna run that- Right... 1:03:12 range of tires, you run that 80 mil tire, or 80 mil rim, and it's like that tire's gonna feel rad- Yeah... almost all the time. Gotcha. So don't... I guess bottom line- Here you go. [laughs] Don't, 1:03:24 like, skimp on your rim size for your range of tires. You know, make sure that the rim size you get kind of is the average for what tire sizes you run over the course of the year. Why not just go with an 80 then? 1:03:39 That, that's what I'm saying. Okay. Yeah. You, y- you know, you don't wanna end up saving 100 grams and going with a 65-millimeter rim- Sure... 1:03:46 because you're like, you know, in the middle, dead of winter, and it's like you're gonna use, you know, a high volume tire like a Bud and Lou, and you're just like, "Yes, this Bud and Lou on the 65s, I'm saving 100 grams of rim," 1:03:58 because you're not gonna feel it for crap because- Right... you're gonna build up 200 grams, 300, 400, 500, I don't know, a couple pounds on the inside of your rims as you're going through the powder. Sure. 1:04:09 You know, it's like, you know, the weight is gonna make no difference at all. Gotcha. You're gonna want a tire that's stable, it's gonna have a big footprint, it's gonna get you all that stuff. 1:04:17 You know, if you really need a 4.8-inch tire, you wanna have a rim that's gonna support it. So you wanna go with at least an 80 mil rim, probably bigger. Gotcha. Glad I do. 1:04:29 Yeah, and it, and you know, if, if you're like a normal weight male, so you're weighing, I don't know, 150 to 200 pounds- Yep... 1:04:37 you probably don't wanna end up going with a 65 mil rim if you're really gonna use that thing for winter duty. Gotcha. Yeah. Fat Camp 29. [laughs] Cha-ching. Yeah, exactly. Yep. 1:04:50 Um, so that's our conversation for this evening. Uh, I've gotta get home and, uh, I don't know, Ken's gotta eat dinner still. Yeah, no doubt. I got a nice little cabbage soup worked up. Jeez, oh, Pete. 1:05:02 Uh, but thanks for listening. As always, feel free to email us. If you're lucky, you'll get one from me, uh, a response from me. [laughs] If you want something intelligent, you may get something from Ken. 1:05:12 And I'm gonna start being a smartass, so it might be kinda funny to email us. Don't forget to check out the Instagram @fatcam podcasters. Plural. Uh, plural. And, uh, I guess that's it. 1:05:23 Uh, we hope that everybody has a safe and wonderful holiday since this- Yes... will be coming out in December. Cheers. Yes, [laughs] exactly. Happy New Year. Um, and we will see you in, uh, January. The next year. 1:05:37 Indeed. All right, peace out. Ciao. [outro music] Thank you for listening. The music we are using on today's show is from the Free Music Archive and is the song Blue Highway performed by Paddington Bear. 1:05:55 You can find all our shows at fatbike.com, including notes for today's show. 1:06:10 [outro music]
